Duggar Interview

[Ben_Riley]

I was horrified at what seemed to be Mr. Duggar minimizing the molestation done by his son. It was like it was really just no big deal, no different than stealing a cookie from the cookie jar in my opinion.

Mary.

Thank you. This is how it looks maybe cause back in the day families would just sweep it under the rug.

 

[MaryT777]

Speaking of bible quotes, here are a bunch from the KJV about keeping secrets. (Actually not sure if the Duggars are KJV only-ists but apparently their son-in-law Ben Seewald is per postings on his FB page):

kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Secrets/

Now some people interpret these as merely stating that nothing is secret from God, but last I checked God was not hanging out on housetops proclaiming anything.

Excellent Bible references. Interesting the Duggars are more than willing to have their entire lives “out there” for the public with their reality TV show but of course NOW it’s a different story.

Can’t have it both ways. Once you’re in the public eye you’re fair game for people pointing out hidden ghosts in the closet.

Mary.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

News Media firestorm over Baptist family with 15 year old son who inappropriately touched his sisters and a baby sitter.

News Media not upset with Pete Townsend; accused rapist movie directors Roman Polanski and accused child sexual abuser Woody Allen; the late child molester Michael Jackson; or all the rapists and criminals in the ranks of the NFL.

We know that Hollywood is filled with selfish, narcissistic, manipulative, evil people. I think society accepted that a long time ago. We know that the NFL is full of violent, overly aggressive, dangerous loose cannons.

The difference is that Ray Rice didn’t make millions telling the world how to be a good husband. Roman Polanski never positioned himself as the moral authority on sex. Neither did Woody Allen. People are quick to denounce Michael Jackson, but they feel sympathy for him because of his father. That’s pretty much how I feel about Josh.

But in this instance, Jim Bob held himself and his family up as the paragon of morals and values. They made repeated public statements disparaging other sexual sinners-sinners that never did anything nonconsensual, while hiding and enabling sexual abuse in their home and family. Jim Bob went on and on about how he’s so controlling because he’s protective of his daughters, and he’d never let anyone hurt them. These people embody the speck and log verse.

It isn’t the abuse they won’t let go of, it’s the disgusting display of self righteousness and hypocrisy.

 

[punisherthunder]

He already got counseling. Lots of people disagree with the type of counseling he got since it was handled by a church group or somethibg rather than secular counseling.

You do know that many secular counselors are accepting of homosexuality, transgenderism etc., right?

So if many counselors are secular, then perhaps he just needed 10 years of jail time and a lifetime on the sex offender registery to straighten him out then.

 

[MaryT777]

Fox has two of the girl victims on tonight right now Central Time. (Jll and Jessa)

Tune in.

 

[QuestLove]

I feel bad for Josh, who didn’t get the help he deserved and for his sister’s who were essentially handed over to be victims. My anger is directed towards Jim Bob. Now there’s a man who makes my blood run cold. I’m glad that he has been exposed, and I hope that this incident makes people more wary of such controlling and insular people in the future.

BEL, yours is one of the more nuanced discussions I have heard on the subject. The victims are the girls and Josh as well.
I was troubled when I heard Jim Bob say that Josh came to them three times. It was clear he was crying out for help.
The other thing was how they downplayed the events - “it wasn’t really rape”, “it was mostly over the clothes”, "they didn’t know"etc. It made it seem as if they were trying to deflect.
And finally, I was concerned that the parents had this issue but did not seem to give a heads up to other families who would be sending their kids to the house. They did not elaborate on the whole babysitter incident, but I know I would be hopping mad if my daughter went to babysit for them and he touched her and in addition I found out that the parents already knew that Josh was doing this stuff.

 

[Faith1960]

Fox has two of the girl victims on tonight right now Central Time. (Jll and Jessa)

Tune in.

The family cleared up a lot of lies the tablids and other people are spewing.

The cop wasnt a friend, but an acqaintence; the girls did get counseling from a licenced therapist; Josh paid for his own counceling etc.

They sounded like very articulate young women who have moved past this and have gotten on with their lives.

 

[QuestLove]

I don’t think many of us are being honest with ourselves.
What if you found out the nice, christian, 14 y old neighborhood boy down the street fondled your daughter (over or under the clothes, whichever you choose)?
What if he came to us and said he was really, really, really sorry and had asked God to forgive him and he wouldn’t do it again. How many of us would be like Jim Bob and give him two more chances?
Even I did not call the police, I would definitely give him more than just a “stern talking-to”. Call me an unforgiving christian if you will.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

The missing pieces of the #DuggarInterview: humility, responsibility, understanding

From Esther Elizabeth:

I almost feel a moral obligation to write about the Duggars—not because I am a former fundamentalist who wrote a book about that kind of life— but because I’m sick of the gleeful, click-baity tabloids dominating the narrative.

So, let’s start there.

To the tabloids: shame on you.

I have no idea how tabloid editors sleep at night. They clearly have problem devastating the lives of four young women in pursuit of pageviews and money. Editors, if you truly CARED about the victims, you would have redacted and redacted and redacted until their identities were fully and completely protected. You cannot pretend to care about women while simultaneously destroying their privacy. Period.

To Jim-Bob & Michelle: I hear your story. Do YOU hear it?

There is something missing from the story Jim-Bob and Michelle told tonight. I’ve heard many, MANY Christians tell difficult stories about their lives and I know when I can trust the words they’re speaking because there are three essential ingredients: humility, responsibility and understanding.

The first missing piece of the story was humility.

(…)

 

[ToeInTheWater]

The family cleared up a lot of lies the tablids and other people are spewing.

The cop wasnt a friend, but an acqaintence; the girls did get counseling from a licenced therapist; Josh paid for his own counceling etc.

They sounded like very articulate young women who have moved past this and have gotten on with their lives.

It seemed that certainly this is the case for Jessa, but I am not quite sure about Jill. Or the other victims; Jill refused to speculate whether the other victims had forgiven Josh, although Jessa seemed certain they had. Jill was also the one who talked about forgiveness not being the same as trust, seemed to border more on being critical of Josh, and seemed to identify as a victim much more than Jessa did.

Not that there’s anything wrong with this; I certainly think the idea that ALL victims of sexual abuse are “scarred for life” is overly simplistic. Different people process such traumas in different ways.

Also, even before these events, it seemed Jessa was much more outgoing and “loud” for lack of a better word than Jill, and more comfortable with expressing her opinions and not caring much about what people thought of her; note the mini-controversies stirred up when she compared the Holocaust to abortion, or proudly posed for a photo holding an assault rifle in a gun shop. So it didn’t surprise me at all that she stated this:

"I do want to speak up in his defense against people who are calling him a child molester or a pedophile or a rapist. … I mean people get mad at me for saying that, but I can say this because I was one of the victims,”

And I actually understand that to some extent. Obviously the positive experiences she had with her brother greatly outweigh the negative experiences, and while I don’t quite agree that “mistake” is the right word to describe what Josh did, it’s not like he’s never done anything good in his life, either.

What did result in a double-take for me, though was when Jill stated as fact that “two thirds of families deal with problems like this”. That’s one of the highest numbers I’ve ever heard and I have no idea where she got that. I also wondered in general, whether their take on what happened reflects an idea that, essentially, men acting in sexually predatory ways is NORMAL because men and teenage boys simply cannot control their lusts, and so they deserve a free pass to some extent.

Certainly, Michelle Duggar’s own prior comments about women “defrauding” men by dressing immodestly, or about wives being obligated to have sex whenever their husbands want it, seem to suggest such a worldview is common in their circles.

 

[Faith1960]

It seemed that certainly this is the case for Jessa, but I am not quite sure about Jill. Or the other victims; Jill refused to speculate whether the other victims had forgiven Josh, although Jessa seemed certain they had. Jill was also the one who talked about forgiveness not being the same as trust, seemed to border more on being critical of Josh, and seemed to identify as a victim much more than Jessa did.

Not that there’s anything wrong with this; I certainly think the idea that ALL victims of sexual abuse are “scarred for life” is overly simplistic. Different people process such traumas in different ways.

Also, even before these events, it seemed Jessa was much more outgoing and “loud” for lack of a better word than Jill, and more comfortable with expressing her opinions and not caring much about what people thought of her; note the mini-controversies stirred up when she compared the Holocaust to abortion, or proudly posed for a photo holding an assault rifle in a gun shop. So it didn’t surprise me at all that she stated this:

And I actually understand that to some extent. Obviously the positive experiences she had with her brother greatly outweigh the negative experiences, and while I don’t quite agree that “mistake” is the right word to describe what Josh did, it’s not like he’s never done anything good in his life, either.

What did result in a double-take for me, though was when Jill stated as fact that “two thirds of families deal with problems like this”. That’s one of the highest numbers I’ve ever heard and I have no idea where she got that. I also wondered in general, whether their takeJudyon what happened reflects an idea that, essentially, men acting in sexually predatory ways is NORMAL because men and teenage boys simply cannot control their lusts, and so they deserve a free pass to some extent.

Certainly, Michelle Duggar’s own prior comments about women “defrauding” men by dressing immodestly, or about wives being obligated to have sex whenever their husbands want it, seem to suggest such a worldview is common in their circles.

I wonder if their ideas that sound like guys cant control themselves stem from what Josh did? Or is Jim Bob out of control in that area, with Michelle?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I wonder if their ideas that sound like guys cant control themselves stem from what Josh did? Or is Jim Bob out of control in that area, with Michelle?

Well, the Bates family also has similar beliefs as the Duggars, similar courting rules, and (hopefully) does not have similar secrets.

Also, the “ATI” home schooling curriculum propagated by Bill Gothard and used by the Duggars actually contains material that encourages this view.

From RecoveringGrace.org (which, for full disclosure, is meant to provide support for ex-“Gothardites”): an article about an actual ATI “lesson” titled Lessons From Moral Failures In a Family". It is unclear if this is based on a real event or a hypothetical, but it involves a young man doing essentially what Josh Duggar did, molesting his younger siblings, and writing down his reflections about what he learned.

The “lesson” starts with this scenario:

“The parents were shocked and grieved as social workers visited their home and confirmed reports that an older brother was guilty of sexually abusing younger ones in his family. The damage to the younger children, the ridicule to the cause of Christ, the shame of detailed publicity, and the scars to the life and reputation of the boy were indescribably painful to the family and their friends.”

Sound familiar?

Here’s one of the “reflections” by the perpetrator:

“One of the things that I learned about in the two years of counseling was personal boundaries. There are some basic steps to keep the opportunities of offending away from young men. For example, not letting myself baby-sit, have little kids sit on my lap, or hang on me, or even be alone with a little person. There is also no roughhousing or wrestling that could encourage inappropriate touching.

“If I had applied these before I offended, it would not have been easy to offend. The simplicity of these boundaries is a small price to pay for such protection. I don’t want to say I forbid my younger sisters to touch me, but I do make sure that when we make physical contact with each other it is done properly.

“For example, if the little people want a hug, I get down on one knee and hug them on their level. I don’t pick them up or let them hang on me. My mom thought I should mention that one should ask when you want a hug or when you want to be in someone’s personal space (within twelve inches of their body), or touch them.”

And here is the critique:

Young men working alone with children is an area of great controversy in many circles, but remember, the narrator of this story sexually assaulted his own very young siblings. His advice forbids most normal childhood physical contact and affection between siblings on the grounds that any older brother may be easily tempted into sexual abuse. In this scenario, parents should treat every older brother as both an opportunistic predator and a potential victim of accidental sexual temptation by his siblings.

No distinction is drawn between guidelines for the author, who has a documented history of molesting his younger siblings, and those recommended for all elder brothers. The narrator describes what effectively constitutes an accepted amount of ongoing physical contact between a former sexual abuser and his victims, with no differentiation between healthy, non-abusive sibling relationships and sexually abusive relationships.

I suppose the Duggar defenders might state that “well obviously if Josh got this kind of counseling, it worked!”

But at what cost?

 

[ToeInTheWater]

(Double-posting to avoid really long single posts.)

What is also quite chilling is the summary of this “lesson” at the end:

“Every precaution should be taken by families so that a similar tragedy will not happen among their children. Once it does happen, it can never be undone, and the scars last a lifetime. Therefore, the following factors should be carefully considered for application in every home.

:black_medium_small_squareo not tolerate laziness by any child. Plan a full day’s schedule.

:black_medium_small_squareo not argue with your children over surface problems. Probe for root problems.

:black_medium_small_squareo not neglect moods of depression in your children. Plan a time to talk it out.

:black_medium_small_squareo not allow boys to change diapers, especially of baby sisters.

:black_medium_small_square:Insist on modesty at all times.

:black_medium_small_square:Teach the children to recognize wrong behavior in moral areas.

:black_medium_small_squareray for protection from pornography. Prepare them to resist it by reading Prov. 1-7.

:black_medium_small_square:Establish open, honest accountability for daily victory in thoughts, words, and actions.

:black_medium_small_squarerovide warnings on immorality from Biblical accounts such as Samson, Tamar, etc.

:black_medium_small_squarerovide guidelines on all physical contacts between children.

:black_medium_small_squarerohibit roughhousing, wrestling, and inappropriate touching of brothers with sisters.”

And the critique:

Four troubling, recurring themes in this document are: the subtle blame of child victims for inviting their own abuse; the lack of distinction between normal physical contact among siblings and the behavior of a sexual predator; the lack of distinction between normal adolescent interest in sexuality and abnormal sexual interest in children; and the lack of distinction between objectionable (legal) consensual sexual behavior and illegal sexual assault. This list presents a queasy hodgepodge of all of these categories.

This is especially important in the case of “Insist on modesty at all times,” which sickeningly underscores the former abuser’s implication that the attire and conduct of young children can make them somehow complicit in their own sexual abuse, as well as “Provide warnings on immorality from Biblical accounts,” which appears to conflate child molestation with the voluntary sexual conduct of adults.

Also note that there is nothing here about what I hope most would agree is an integral aspect of most cases of sexual assault and abuse: the abuser exerting power and control over the victim.

Essentially, the approach seems to be based on the idea that “sex crimes” are merely crimes of lust, and that (as I highlighted above) that essentially, consent is irrelevant when it comes to sexual sin. So, forcing sexual acts on someone is really not that much more sinful than engaging in consensual sexual sin.

IMHO, many of the Duggar defenders also seem to have lost sight of this distinction as well when they compare what Josh did to homosexual acts, sexual promiscuity, etc., and bash “liberals” for hypocrisy by daring to criticize acts of sexual abuse while not criticizing NON-abusive sexual acts.

All this being said, I concede that some people fixate on “lack of consent” as the moral event horizon for sexual sin, and try to fit all objectionable sexual behavior into the “sexual assault” model. I agree with Jessa Duggar in that I certainly don’t think groping a breast is as serious a sin as actual forced intercourse. I also don’t think a guy plying a girl with drinks hoping to “score” is as depraved as a guy holding a gun to the girl’s head to achieve the same end.

However, while merely being selfish about one’s sexuality is not quite the same as committing sexual assault, I do sense some cognitive dissonance going on in the “liberal” approach to sex. Those who claim to be “sex-positive” often portray sex acts as a self-focused way to “express your sexuality” with the partner(s) just being a means to the end. Yet, they try to draw a bright line between this attitude, and the attitude that if the partner is just a means to an end, then it doesn’t even matter if the partner actually wants to fill that role or not. The idea that anyone who steps a toe over that line is a rapist, sexual predator, monster, etc., who can never be forgiven, seems a little too simplistic as well.

So I guess neither the hard right or the hard left have the best answers for the dilemma of how to approach sexual abuse and violence.

 

[MaryT777]

Everything those girls are taught from Day One says to them that men could be out of control at any moment.
The way they are told to dress, the fact that they are not allowed to dance or go to a beach…that they cannot even properly hug a boy (or a girl, either?) who is their friend, except for those awkward “side hug” things they do–for fear or provoking a sexual response.

Ironically, they could not hug their brothers, either…but this didn’t seem to keep Josh from making a “mistake” and being “curious,” as they call it.
So it was all for naught.

I also find it strange that they have all these rules to make sure they don’t look like they are “defrauding” men and trying to lure them, etc, etc…and yet, they sure can pile on the heavy eye shadow and sticky, layers upon layers of lip gloss like they’ve stepped off the cover of Cosmo

.

Well said; all that talk about modesty and they still have a molester in the family. Plus I don’t believe that all the molested victims touched on their breasts and vaginas just slept peacefully away and did not wake up.

Mary.

 

[Memaw]

Maybe they felt they had no choice but to go to the media. People are talking and making stuff up, and they probably wanted to set the record straight.

Im surprised more people arent on them about how Jim Bob harped about Josh’s juvenile records being opened up to the public. That was just wrong but even though he harped on it I can see why he’s so mad.

He didn’t “harp” on it, Kelly asked him about it and he responded. Someone broke the law releasing them. I love the adjectives people use to get “their” point across. God Bless. Memaw

 

[Memaw]

The missing pieces of the #DuggarInterview: humility, responsibility, understanding

From Esther Elizabeth:

I think it took a lot of humility to even do the interview! God Bless, Memaw

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Everything those girls are taught from Day One says to them that men could be out of control at any moment.
The way they are told to dress, the fact that they are not allowed to dance or go to a beach…that they cannot even properly hug a boy (or a girl, either?) who is their friend, except for those awkward “side hug” things they do–for fear or provoking a sexual response.

I agree with most of this but to be fair, they DO go to the beach, they just dress in very odd bathing attire that is supposedly “modest”. Also, none of the kids were old enough to “court” when these events took place so I don’t think we can say “oh the courting rules didn’t work”. Chances are the Duggars would still have followed the courting rules even if this hadn’t happened, but it does seem it just reinforced beliefs they already had about how uncontrollable male sexuality is.

I also find it strange that they have all these rules to make sure they don’t look like they are “defrauding” men and trying to lure them, etc, etc…and yet, they sure can pile on the heavy eye shadow and sticky, layers upon layers of lip gloss like they’ve stepped off the cover of Cosmo

Actually, apparently the question of whether using makeup is modest or not is not quite settled in the “quiverfull” subculture. Jessa’s father-in-law Michael Seewald comes from the same subculture but he has stated the following in his blog, interestingly in a post titled “You Can’t Judge Me”:

Some Christians today think that women wearing makeup is wrong. Many others see no problem with it. Since it is not something commanded or forbidden in Scripture, those that don’t wear it shouldn’t look down on those that do, or vice versa. Some Christians interpret modest dress for women as long skirts and dresses only. Others think that wearing pants can fit into the modest category. Here again, Christians should be generous in allowing others liberty of conscience in areas not specifically spelled out in Scripture. We should not look down on others for having a different view than our own. .

He’s made other posts that make me think his beliefs regarding chastity, modesty, and the proper relationships between men and women are not quite as hard-core as the Duggars themselves.

So I don’t think it’s quite fair to characterize the Duggars as belonging to a “cult” where all the members march in lockstep, are completely brainwashed, and never think for themselves or deviate from the script. Anymore than this is true of Catholics. The many debates on CAF between Catholics certainly are evidence of that.

ETA: I’ve noticed that many people are essentially stating “it doesn’t matter what Jessa and Jill said, they’re just brainwashed and unable to think for themselves”. If that was the case they would have had the exact same responses to the situation and that I think was obviously not the case even in the highly controlled setting of the Kelly interview. Jill certainly seemed more upset and emotional about everything compared to Jessa, who seemed much more emotionally detached from the situation.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I agree with most of this but to be fair, they DO go to the beach, they just dress in very odd bathing attire that is supposedly “modest”. Also, none of the kids were old enough to “court” when these events took place so I don’t think we can say “oh the courting rules didn’t work”. Chances are the Duggars would still have followed the courting rules even if this hadn’t happened, but it does seem it just reinforced beliefs they already had about how uncontrollable male sexuality is.

Actually, apparently the question of whether using makeup is modest or not is not quite settled in the “quiverfull” subculture. Jessa’s father-in-law Michael Seewald comes from the same subculture but he has stated the following in his blog, interestingly in a post titled “You Can’t Judge Me”:

He’s made other posts that make me think his beliefs regarding chastity, modesty, and the proper relationships between men and women are not quite as hard-core as the Duggars themselves.

So I don’t think it’s quite fair to characterize the Duggars as belonging to a “cult” where all the members march in lockstep, are completely brainwashed, and never think for themselves or deviate from the script. Anymore than this is true of Catholics. The many debates on CAF between Catholics certainly are evidence of that.

ETA: I’ve noticed that many people are essentially stating “it doesn’t matter what Jessa and Jill said, they’re just brainwashed and unable to think for themselves”. If that was the case they would have had the exact same responses to the situation and that I think was obviously not the case even in the highly controlled setting of the Kelly interview. Jill certainly seemed more upset and emotional about everything compared to Jessa, who seemed much more emotionally detached from the situation.

I actually understand they don’t go to the “beach” when they have gone swimming it’s been at a pond or lake on private property. They don’t go to beaches where there are other people who wear standard beach attire.

 

[Havard]

Yes, it’s their hypocrisy and looking down the nose at others that have got them in the boat they are in. “Woe to you hypocrites.”

Are you saying they claim not to be sinners? I’m not familiar with the Duggars, but I’ve never heard this claim.

 

[Magdalena59]

I admire them and what they did for their son and other siblings was the right thing to do. It worked. It’s those who are judging the whole thing that are way off base. Many times the ‘counseling’ done by professionals never works. There’s did. As a society we seem to condone all kinds of wrong doings, such as abortion, divorce and remarriage, pornography, sex with anyone, anytime, any way, homosexuality. Done by ADULTS. Yet we can’t seem to forgive a young boy who made bad mistakes as a youth and was sorry, asked forgiveness and has grown up to be a wonderful husband and father, respectful person and really decent man. We will trash his family expose his sisters to public shame. Not caring who or how we hurt them doing so. I only hope when the day comes and we ask God for forgiveness, He is as merciful to us as He is to the Duggars. God Bless, Memaw

I totally agree with this.

It seems to me after reading many posts and articles about the Duggars, many people are making statements without even knowing the facts or the whole story. All they see is a Christian family that fell or had sin in their lives. Well, we all have sin in our lives but it is a matter of turning back to God that makes the difference.

I think the biggest thing that strikes me is that as a young teenager, Josh Duggar, was able to go to his parents and tell them what he had done and ask for help and forgiveness. How many teenagers do that today? How many teenagers today are caught up in the spirit of fornication or pornography on computers and cell phones and keep it hidden and do not go to their parents or anyone for help. What he and the parents did took great courage.

I think it also bothers people that his sisters forgive him. That bothers people who can’t understand the freedom we get when we forgive and are forgiven.

But isn’t that the message of the Gospel. Repentance and forgiveness. Cleansing. We have all sinned.

God is always ready to forgive. His mercies are new every morning but we have to turn and ask for forgiveness, especially through the sacrament of reconciliation.

In the words of Sr. Philip Neri, who when ever he heard rumors or gossip of something someone did was known to say, “Thank God I didn’t do something worse.”

By the grace of God, go I.