Duress and culpability

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Ooops, sorry, I went there with the Nazi thing. But I did it with all good intentions and believe me, I have never seen it discussed on this forum. I apologize, but I would like to know what a person is supposed to do. Evidently this has been discussed and debated to death but I didn’t know that and I still don’t know what to do.

My apologies but I’m going to go ahead and discuss it.
:grouphug: Don’t worry! I just didn’t want to have Ron Conte and I switch to using that particular example for a conversation between ourselves, since he didn’t want to pick a topic that is stressful for me or others. Please, go ahead and ask about it! 👍
 
Ask an apologist forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=25127

This shows that in the case of rape, a woman may try to intercept the sperm to prevent conception from occurring. But once conception occurs, one cannot remove the egg as that is a human life.

I don’t know if this applies to a condom - but once the sperm are inside she can morally try to remove them. This implies to me that a condom would be morally licit in this extreme example.

Also, saying lying is intrisically evil’ is wrong since the intention is to deceive in most cases, but in some cases, the intention is to save a life, such as in the Nazi search for Jews.

Murder, the killing of another human, is defined in a way that it is always intrinsically wrong. Killing, however, is not. To say ‘killing’ is intrinsically evil is like saying ‘lying’ is intrinsically evil. However, we have no better word for ‘lie’ , like the way ‘murder and killing’ are different.

Lie is like kill, not murder, not intrinsically evil. Both are wrong, but an intent of goodness (in addition to other circumstances according to the principle of double effect) allows them to be be morally licit.
Thank you for the link. I checked out the links provided and this is what one stated:

“… according to the U.S. Catholic Bishops in their Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, a woman “who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault” (Directive 36). She is not obliged when raped, as would be the case in consensual relations, to accommodate the natural potential for conception. The forced introduction of sperm is an act of aggression she may resist even through means that prevent the creation of new life. That explains why Catholic hospitals may distribute contraceptives in some rape cases, particularly within 24 hours after the assault. Immediate care is essential as well to address issues related to the transmission of venereal disease and for appropriate and compassionate trauma counseling.”

Emergency Contraception and Rape: A Catholic Perspective
(//www.macathconf.org/emergency_contraception_and_rape.htm)

It seems strange to me that condom use would not be allowed but that emergency contraceptive treatment after the rape would be condoned. I agree with you that condom use in the case of rape may be licit.

As far as the Nazi scenario goes:

I have done some further research and would like to use the word “falsehood” or perhaps “untruth” in place of the word “lie.” That is because I have been told by someone I know and trust that it is true that a lie is always a sin, because a lie is an untruth told to someone who deserves to know the truth.

In some cases, however, the truth shouldn’t be told, as in the case with the Nazis or in the case with someone holding a gun on you.

Here is what the CCC says:

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion.** No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.** [bolding mine]

2491 Professional secrets - for example, those of political office holders, soldiers, physicians, and lawyers or confidential information given under the seal of secrecy must be kept, save in exceptional cases where keeping the secret is bound to cause very grave harm to the one who confided it, to the one who received it or to a third party, and where the very grave harm can be avoided only by divulging the truth. Even if not confided under the seal of secrecy, private information prejudicial to another is not to be divulged without a grave and proportionate reason. [bolding mine]

It seems to me that the CCC is stating that I can tell a falsehood without sinning. The Nazi soldiers are obviously not going to let me stand there and remain silent; also they obviously do not have the right to know the truth. They will shoot me and find the family I am hiding or else they will know by my silence that I am hiding the family and we will all be shot and killed or sent off to a concentration camp.

I am the person responsible for maintaining the secrecy. I don’t want to lie, if lying is always a sin. But I am responsible for keeping this family alive.

I’m sorry that I posted a scenario that has been posted to death and I promise to not post it again. I really wish the OP had posted the quotes he kept referring to, but I don’t think he will. So this is the best I can do for now.

I will always submit to the authority of the Magisterium. The problem is that I don’t always know what the Magisterium is saying.
 
:grouphug: Don’t worry! I just didn’t want to have Ron Conte and I switch to using that particular example for a conversation between ourselves, since he didn’t want to pick a topic that is stressful for me or others. Please, go ahead and ask about it! 👍
Thank you. You are very kind. I think I’m done now, anyway. 🙂
 
Actually at first I didn’t believe it and I had never heard of the USCCB but I checked it out and it appears to be legitimate.

Thank you again!!
You’re welcome. 🙂

Yes, the USCCB is indeed a legitimate website and organization. It consists of the Catholic bishops in the United States (huh, I don’t know if auxiliary bishops are members or not). If you live in the USA, your bishop sends dues to the organization as part of his diocesan budget, as far as I know. Mine does. In my diocese, I think the dues for that are equal in dollar amount to the dues sent to the Vatican. But that relies upon my memory from the last flyer I got for the stewardship campaign. (Pug = bad memory 😊) Your own bishop is your shepherd though, not the conference.

Officers of the USCCB:

President, Cardinal Francis George, OMI, of Chicago

Vice President, Bishop Gerald F. Kicanas of Tucson

Treasurer, *Archbishop Joseph E. Kurtz of Louisville *
Secretary, Bishop George V. Murry, SJ of Youngstown
 
Thank you for the link. I checked out the links provided and this is what one stated:

“… according to the U.S. Catholic Bishops in their Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, a woman “who has been raped should be able to defend herself against a potential conception from the sexual assault” (Directive 36). She is not obliged when raped, as would be the case in consensual relations, to accommodate the natural potential for conception. The forced introduction of sperm is an act of aggression she may resist even through means that prevent the creation of new life. That explains why Catholic hospitals may distribute contraceptives in some rape cases, particularly within 24 hours after the assault. Immediate care is essential as well to address issues related to the transmission of venereal disease and for appropriate and compassionate trauma counseling.”

Emergency Contraception and Rape: A Catholic Perspective
(//www.macathconf.org/emergency_contraception_and_rape.htm)

It seems strange to me that condom use would not be allowed but that emergency contraceptive treatment after the rape would be condoned. I agree with you that condom use in the case of rape may be licit.

As far as the Nazi scenario goes:

I have done some further research and would like to use the word “falsehood” or perhaps “untruth” in place of the word “lie.” That is because I have been told by someone I know and trust that it is true that a lie is always a sin, because a lie is an untruth told to someone who deserves to know the truth.

In some cases, however, the truth shouldn’t be told, as in the case with the Nazis or in the case with someone holding a gun on you.

Here is what the CCC says:

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion.** No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.** [bolding mine]

2491 Professional secrets - for example, those of political office holders, soldiers, physicians, and lawyers or confidential information given under the seal of secrecy must be kept, save in exceptional cases where keeping the secret is bound to cause very grave harm to the one who confided it, to the one who received it or to a third party, and where the very grave harm can be avoided only by divulging the truth. Even if not confided under the seal of secrecy, private information prejudicial to another is not to be divulged without a grave and proportionate reason. [bolding mine]

It seems to me that the CCC is stating that I can tell a falsehood without sinning. The Nazi soldiers are obviously not going to let me stand there and remain silent; also they obviously do not have the right to know the truth. They will shoot me and find the family I am hiding or else they will know by my silence that I am hiding the family and we will all be shot and killed or sent off to a concentration camp.

I am the person responsible for maintaining the secrecy. I don’t want to lie, if lying is always a sin. But I am responsible for keeping this family alive.

I’m sorry that I posted a scenario that has been posted to death and I promise to not post it again. I really wish the OP had posted the quotes he kept referring to, but I don’t think he will. So this is the best I can do for now.

I will always submit to the authority of the Magisterium. The problem is that I don’t always know what the Magisterium is saying.
Thank you. It says “She is not obliged when raped, as would be the case in consensual relations, to accommodate the natural potential for conception” so that seems to mean a condom is morally acceptable.

I had a Christian Moral Life class and our professor talked about lying, using this stereotypical Nazi example. He showed how ‘honesty’ is a virtue, and the mean of honesty is telling the truth to everyone who has the right to know it. The excess would be telling too many truths (can’t think of a word for it), like you said, giving state secrets away is having the vice of too much honesty, whereas the other end of the vice is dishonesty, lying all the time to those who deserve the truth.
 
Thank you. It says “She is not obliged when raped, as would be the case in consensual relations, to accommodate the natural potential for conception” so that seems to mean a condom is morally acceptable.

I had a Christian Moral Life class and our professor talked about lying, using this stereotypical Nazi example. He showed how ‘honesty’ is a virtue, and the mean of honesty is telling the truth to everyone who has the right to know it. The excess would be telling too many truths (can’t think of a word for it), like you said, giving state secrets away is having the vice of too much honesty, whereas the other end of the vice is dishonesty, lying all the time to those who deserve the truth.
Exactly. I think sometimes it’s a problem of semantics and that’s why the Church, anyone who passes on Church teaching, and anyone who discusses it really needs to provide a definition of the terms that are used.

I thought a lie, a falsehood, and an untruth were synonyms and in a way they are, but when it comes down to discussing sin, I think we need to be absolutely clear on definitions.

And I think that our God is a loving and merciful God who doesn’t sit up there on a throne in heaven with a big book with all our names in it, putting black marks after the names of people who commit the slightest transgressions, and enjoying it. He knows we are searching for Truth. I’ve been confused and hurt many times since I’ve been a member of CAF; I’ve been in so much despair (because of what someone wrote) that I honestly believed I was being damned to hell and there was nothing I could do about it. Then I learned about God’s love and I try to base my understanding of situations and sin on that love. That has helped me a lot.
 
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