Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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worldcitizen said:
I know that but it was a great debate. I’d give it to the Christian anyway. His answers seemed more from the heart.
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So you agree the problem is with Muslims who deny Jesus Crucifixion. Thank you. Now you know what you have to do. Work it out with them and figure out to prove to Muslims Jesus was indeed Crucified.

MJ
 
worldcitizen said:
Jesus never said ‘I am God’. But Jesus did say He was a prophet. Christians read that into His Words. We agree with anything He called Himself. Proohet, Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, Bread of Life, The Way and the Truth. He had so many titles and we AGREE with them all. Only He never called Himself the essence of God.

Jesus was everything Christians say He is except God in essence as He denies it. If He were God in essence He would know everything and He said below there’s some things only the Father knows. Very clear.

This is where Christ denies He’s God because there’s things Gid knows that Christ doesn’t

Matthew 24:36

But concerning that day and hour **no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens, nor the Son, **except the Father only.

Prophet, Christ as ( Thompson’s Chain Bible)

Deuteronomy 18:18
Matthew 21:11
Matthew 21:46
Mark 6:15
Luke 7:16
Luke 13:33
Luke 24:19
John 4:19
John 6:14
John 7:40
John 9:17
Acts 3:22
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There is no case here. Just throwing verses No follow up, context. For example John 4:19 it continues wherein at John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Jesus declared " Yes, I am one speaking to you, I am He"

Remember also Jesus asked “who do people say I am?”. Well what happened next?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
So you agree the problem is with Muslims who deny Jesus Crucifixion. Thank you. Now you know what you have to do. Work it out with them and figure out to prove to Muslims Jesus was indeed Crucified.

MJ
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Whoah! Not so fast. That’s for you to defend the Bible not me. Although I do defend it as a Baha’i it ultimately rests with Christians to defend the Bible.
 
Techno2000 said:
What are the rewards that Baha’u’llah has rendered to every man according to what he has done. ?
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His will be rewarded only for deeds done for the love of God. Deeds done for personal gain are not in the same league.

Man’s deeds are praiseworthy in the sight of God when they are performed solely for His love and for no other reason. To this Bahá’u’lláh testifies in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas: ‘Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty.’If man’s motive for his actions is that he may reap a reward for himself in the next world, then this is attachment. To be detached means to do everything for the sake of God and to seek no recompense. (Revelation of Baha’u’llah Vol 2)

The Rank of a True a Believer that of A Prophet of the House of Israel etc)

*In confirmation of the exalted rank of the true believer, referred to by Bahá’u’lláh, He reveals the following:

“The station which he who hath truly recognized this Revelation will attain is the same as the one ordained for such prophets of the house of Israel as are not regarded as Manifestations ‘endowed with constancy."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah*
 
MartinJordan said:
There is no case here. Just throwing verses No follow up, context. For example John 4:19 it continues wherein at John 4:21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Jesus declared " Yes, I am one speaking to you, I am He"

Remember also Jesus asked “who do people say I am?”. Well what happened next?

MJ
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Peter said He was Christ but Jeus had many titles not just Christ and even He Himself said He was a Prophet as well as other people saying that.

Thing is nowhere Christ says ‘I am God’ only Son of God not essence of essences God.

The Father knew things Jesus did not, proving they were two separate entities not one in essence.
 
worldcitizen said:
Peter said He was Christ but Jeus had many titles not just Christ and even He Himself said He was a Prophet as well as other people saying that.

Thing is nowhere Christ says ‘I am God’ only Son of God not essence of essences God.

The Father knew things Jesus did not, proving they were two separate entities not one in essence.
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John 14:8-9
Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him,
'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, “Show us the Father”?
 
worldcitizen said:
Whoah! Not so fast. That’s for you to defend the Bible not me. Although I do defend it as a Baha’i it ultimately rests with Christians to defend the Bible.
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The Bible didn’t come first. Tradition and practice was first then put into the Bible. Muslims don’t even understand this.

MJ
 
worldcitizen said:
Peter said He was Christ but Jeus had many titles not just Christ and even He Himself said He was a Prophet as well as other people saying that.

Thing is nowhere Christ says ‘I am God’ only Son of God not essence of essences God.

The Father knew things Jesus did not, proving they were two separate entities not one in essence.
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This is Muslim polemic.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
The Bible didn’t come first. Tradition and practice was first then put into the Bible. Muslims don’t even understand this.

MJ
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I’m not surprised the Baha’i are in here considering the topic of the tread
 
JimmyDFG said:
John 14:8-9
Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him,
'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, “Show us the Father”?
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commanded to say as a Servant obeying the Master - God.

The topic is about how important early historians are to Muslims so I’ll stay on that.

Very important but as Islam split in two after Muhammad died you won’t get an unbiased view from Muslims. And Christian historians all label Muhammad in a negative manner so the Muslims have no impartial historians really.
 
worldcitizen said:
Yes they saw God in Him because Christ was a reflection of God’s will but not God Himself in essence as the Father knew things Christ did not. Christ was not Almighty God.

Matthew 24:36

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Christ only says what He’s been commanded to say as a Servant obeying the Master - God.

John 12:49

I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it.

The Father sent Christ - a Sender and the One Sent. Two different entities.

Jesus explained, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work.

Christ did the Will of the Father - the One Who Commanded and the One Who obeyed

There are so many misconceptions about the station of Christ. Was He the physical Son of God no of course not. It was a title. We can become the sons of God. See below

John 17:21

We can all be one in the Father according to this so seeing the Father in us is possible too.

that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Again and again Jesus refers to a HIM that ‘sent’, ‘commanded’ Me, told Me what to say and even how to say it proving Jesus was not God for God doesn’t need instruction and that Jesus was following orders from One higher than Himself while receiving Revelation.

It’s clear Christ received a Revelation from God similar to Muhammad and was told what to say and how to say it as He didn’t know as He was not God.

The ‘relationship’ between Christ and God was as a father to a son and even we can become sons of God so it was a title.

John1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
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Your disproving Christianity is becoming tiring
 
JimmyDFG said:
Your disproving Christianity is becoming tiring
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Sorry. Was just responding to your post. It was off topic anyway so I tried to edit my post and post an on topic one so you weren’t meant to see that. Just ignore it.

Apologies.
 
ericc said:
Muslims says Jesus is merely man, not deity. Muslims say the human Jesus did not die, but appear to be only, fainted, swoon or replaced by another body. Christians say he did and rose on the 3rd day. Christians say Jesus is God. Christians believes Christ death and resurrection brings redemption to the whole world. Muslims don’t believe in any of this.

So who is right? You can’t make everyone right in this case. Since the Christian God doesn’t lie, one of these books must be wrong. Or the Christian God is different from the Muslim God and both can be right. (but I don’t think so since the Quran references the Bible but the Bible doesn’t reference the Quran)

What do Bahais say who Jesus is? Is he God or not? If we can not agree on this simple question, then obviously your efforts to group the prophets together as if they are all in sync is a futile exercise.
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Jimmy.

The last paragraph here asks me a question about what Baha’is say on the topic. So I answered it. I didn’t go off topic. I just answered a question put to me. Apologies anyway.
 
worldcitizen said:
Peter said He was Christ but Jeus had many titles not just Christ and even He Himself said He was a Prophet as well as other people saying that.

Thing is nowhere Christ says ‘I am God’ only Son of God not essence of essences God.

The Father knew things Jesus did not, proving they were two separate entities not one in essence.
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First answer Jesus when he told the Samaritan woman he is the Messiah. Please be fair to Jesus. 🙂

I really want you to have more respect to those experienced Jesus and all he has done for man.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
First answer Jesus when he told the Samaritan woman he is the Messiah. Please be fair to Jesus. 🙂

I really want you to have more respect to those experienced Jesus and all he has done for man.

MJ
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This got off topic when someone on this thread asked me what the Bahai understanding was and I explained it to them that’s all so I can’t continue to go off topic just because of one question I had to answer.

You can create a new thread but I must respect the topic here which is a Muslim topic. Thanks.
 
worldcitizen said:
This got off topic when someone on this thread asked me what the Bahai understanding was and I explained it to them that’s all so I can’t continue to go off topic just because of one question I had to answer.

You can create a new thread but I must respect the topic here which is a Muslim topic. Thanks.
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Which post asked the Bahai understanding?

MJ
 
worldcitizen said:
The Quran agrees with the New Testament. The latest Manifestation confirms it.
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I found this. So you went into the New Testament and then used a Bahai understanding. If you’re going to state like this then it is has to be another thread. In the meantime there has to responsibility so you’ll get a Catholic response.

MJ
 
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