Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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MartinJordan said:
And you didn’t answer him.

MJ
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Well it ended up with you and I tried to set it back on topic to the Muslim topic so we’ll have to answer it on another pertinent thread.

Meanwhile, it’s difficult to get a completely accurate and unbiased account of early Islamic history.

No doubt Muslims really need this to clear up the successorship issue as well as issues like whether Muhammad approved of hadiths or not. So to get an accurate account could unite Islam but that’s impossible except as I said through another Manifestation to clarify what really happened
 
worldcitizen said:
Jesus never said ‘I am God’. But Jesus did say He was a prophet. Christians read that into His Words. We agree with anything He called Himself. Proohet, Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, Bread of Life, The Way and the Truth. He had so many titles and we AGREE with them all. Only He never called Himself the essence of God.

Jesus was everything Christians say He is except God in essence as He denies it. If He were God in essence He would know everything and He said below there’s some things only the Father knows. Very clear.

This is where Christ denies He’s God because there’s things Gid knows that Christ doesn’t

Matthew 24:36

But concerning that day and hour **no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens, nor the Son, **except the Father only.

Prophet, Christ as ( Thompson’s Chain Bible)

Deuteronomy 18:18
Matthew 21:11
Matthew 21:46
Mark 6:15
Luke 7:16
Luke 13:33
Luke 24:19
John 4:19
John 6:14
John 7:40
John 9:17
Acts 3:22
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  1. Bottom line you are saying Jesus is not God. Correct?
  2. All Christians, ALL the apostles, Paul, worship Jesus as God. Since the NT is written by the apostles or people closely connected to the apostles, they are the people to go to to determine whether Jesus is God. If Jesus is not God, then the Apostles would have committed idolatry because they worshiped Jesus and Jesus accepted their worship.
Mat 14:33 All those in the boat worshiped him, saying “Truly you are the Son of God”
Mat 28:9 “… took hold of his feet and worshiped him”
Luk 24:52
  1. Hence, either the Bible NT is wrong or your books are wrong. If the Bible is wrong, then you shouldn’t be quoting the Bible as the reference for Mohamed and Ali. Because Revelation is written by John the Apostle. If John is worshiping Jesus, then by your account he is committing idolatry. Why would you quote Revelation if written by an idolator?
  2. You have forgotten to answer my previous question to you. Do you believe that the human Jesus died and rose again from the dead 3 days later? Or do you think he swooned?
  3. There are things that the human Jesus chose not to know. There are things that the human Jesus chose to become, to be born of a virgin, to suffer, to be mocked and ridiculed, to be spat on, whipped, to be crucified. None of this is beyond God’s Love.
  4. Your claim that Jesus did not claim to be God does not in any way refute he is not God. I am sure you agree absence does not equate to evidence. Just because you didn’t say you didn’t ate breakfast signify that you didn’t. You are resorting to fallacious arguing. Your stance can be correct if Jesus claim he is not God but we make him to be one. So now show us the evidence that Jesus claims he is not God. You claimed he denies he is God. Chapter and verse please.
  5. Do you accept that Jesus is the Son of God?
    Mat 16:16,
    Mk 1:1,
    Luk 1:32,
    Luk 1:35,
    Jn 1:34,
    Jn 1:49,
    Jn20:31.
    Acts 9:20
Isn’t the Son of God, God too? Or does the Son of God takes a different nature from that of his Father?
  1. If you claim Jesus to be a prophet, merely a man, then this man is a false prophet because he accepted worship from his apostles as the Son of God. Not once did he rejected their worship or disclaim that he is the Son of God… You either accept Jesus as what he is, God, or he is a hoax, mad and evil, guiding people towards false worship and idolatry. Which would obviously mean he is not a prophet. Choose one. You can’t pick and choose qualities of Jesus that you liked and discard what you don’t. it is all or nothing.
And I am still waiting for your response on where does the Bible say Mohammed and Ali are in there. And the Ali question too. Will you be retracting your statement? Soon I hope.
 
ericc said:
  1. Bottom line you are saying Jesus is not God. Correct?
  2. All Christians, ALL the apostles, Paul, worship Jesus as God. Since the NT is written by the apostles or people closely connected to the apostles, they are the people to go to to determine whether Jesus is God. If Jesus is not God, then the Apostles would have committed idolatry because they worshiped Jesus and Jesus accepted their worship.
Mat 14:33 All those in the boat worshiped him, saying “Truly you are the Son of God”
Mat 28:9 “… took hold of his feet and worshiped him”
Luk 24:52
  1. Hence, either the Bible NT is wrong or your books are wrong. If the Bible is wrong, then you shouldn’t be quoting the Bible as the reference for Mohamed and Ali. Because Revelation is written by John the Apostle. If John is worshiping Jesus, then by your account he is committing idolatry. Why would you quote Revelation if written by an idolator?
  2. You have forgotten to answer my previous question to you. Do you believe that the human Jesus died and rose again from the dead 3 days later? Or do you think he swooned?
  3. There are things that the human Jesus chose not to know. There are things that the human Jesus chose to become, to be born of a virgin, to suffer, to be mocked and ridiculed, to be spat on, whipped, to be crucified. None of this is beyond God’s Love.
  4. Your claim that Jesus did not claim to be God does not in any way refute he is not God. I am sure you agree absence does not equate to evidence. Just because you didn’t say you didn’t ate breakfast signify that you didn’t. You are resorting to fallacious arguing. Your stance can be correct if Jesus claim he is not God but we make him to be one. So now show us the evidence that Jesus claims he is not God. You claimed he denies he is God. Chapter and verse please.
  5. Do you accept that Jesus is the Son of God?
    Mat 16:16,
    Mk 1:1,
    Luk 1:32,
    Luk 1:35,
    Jn 1:34,
    Jn 1:49,
    Jn20:31.
    Acts 9:20
Isn’t the Son of God, God too? Or does the Son of God takes a different nature from that of his Father?
  1. If you claim Jesus to be a prophet, merely a man, then this man is a false prophet because he accepted worship from his apostles as the Son of God. Not once did he rejected their worship or disclaim that he is the Son of God… You either accept Jesus as what he is, God, or he is a hoax, mad and evil, guiding people towards false worship and idolatry. Which would obviously mean he is not a prophet. Choose one. You can’t pick and choose qualities of Jesus that you liked and discard what you don’t. it is all or nothing.
And I am still waiting for your response on where does the Bible say Mohammed and Ali are in there. And the Ali question too. Will you be retracting your statement? Soon I hope.
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Ericc. I created a comparative religion section to respect the thread topic here. I’ll post an answer to you in that thread shortly ok? Many thanks, david
 
worldcitizen said:
Well it ended up with you and I tried to set it back on topic to the Muslim topic so we’ll have to answer it on another pertinent thread.

Meanwhile, it’s difficult to get a completely accurate and unbiased account of early Islamic history.

No doubt Muslims really need this to clear up the successorship issue as well as issues like whether Muhammad approved of hadiths or not. So to get an accurate account could unite Islam but that’s impossible except as I said through another Manifestation to clarify what really happened
Click to expand...
So the Bible has nothing to do with Mohammed right?

MJ
 
worldcitizen said:
Revelation is replete with prophecies about Muhammad if you want we can discuss it on the comparative religion thread
Click to expand...
I can disprove this…
Revelation 19:16
On his cloak and on his thigh a name was written: King of kings and Lord of lords (referring to Jesus)

(Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224) Mohammed said, “The most awful name in Allah’s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings).”
 
JimmyDFG said:
I can disprove this…
Revelation 19:16
On his cloak and on his thigh a name was written: King of kings and Lord of lords (referring to Jesus)

(Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224) Mohammed said, “The most awful name in Allah’s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings).”
Click to expand...
QURAN

39:23 God has sent down the best hadith, a book that is consistent, relating/contrasting/repeating.

31:6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

[31:6]* Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution. (Rashad)

7:185

Which hadith after this one will they acknowledge?*

45:6 These are God’s signs that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and His signs, do they acknowledge?

45:7 Woe to every sinful fabricator.
 
MartinJordan said:
The Bible didn’t come first. Tradition and practice was first then put into the Bible. Muslims don’t even understand this.

MJ
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I think it is important to distinguish the Bible from early Christianity.

When Baha’is refer to the Bible, we are referring to a compilation of Letters and Gospels put together by the Catholic Church, we are referring to the actual words of Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc etc. All of the words written and recorded by these individuals preceded the Bible.

That’s an important distinction Martin 🙂

.
 
JimmyDFG said:
I can disprove this…
Revelation 19:16
On his cloak and on his thigh a name was written: King of kings and Lord of lords (referring to Jesus)

(Sahih-Al-Bukhari Bk 73; Num 224) Mohammed said, “The most awful name in Allah’s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings).”
Click to expand...
Baha’u’llah is the King of Kings, here is His Tablet to the Kings reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-105.html

It is a Fact The Most Great Names become The most awful names to the people that reject Gods Messengers.

This is known by God and with this He blesses the people that overcome.

Regards Tony
 
Servant19 said:
I think it is important to distinguish the Bible from early Christianity.

When Baha’is refer to the Bible, we are referring to a compilation of Letters and Gospels put together by the Catholic Church, we are referring to the actual words of Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John etc etc. All of the words written and recorded by these individuals preceded the Bible.

That’s an important distinction Martin 🙂

.
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What happened to the Orthodox church now?😉

MJ
 
TonyBS said:
Baha’u’llah is the King of Kings, here is His Tablet to the Kings reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-105.html

It is a Fact The Most Great Names become The most awful names to the people that reject Gods Messengers.

This is known by God and with this He blesses the people that overcome.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
Best to announce this to the United Nations.

In the meantime, remember everyday every where somewhere, many people in the world receive the Body of Christ in the flesh. Even The Blessed Sacrament is exposed for all who want to worship Christ in Spirit and in Truth Keep watch at times for the Son of Man will come at the time you won’t expect.

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
Makes no difference to the concept being shared 🙂

.
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Jesus is real. Not a concept. Where’s the Priesthood in your "concept " ? Where is the fulfillment of the Catholic Church in this "concept "?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Jesus is real. Not a concept. Where’s the Priesthood in your "concept " ? Where is the fulfillment of the Catholic Church in this "concept "?

MJ
Click to expand...
I’m not talking about Jesus. I’m talking about the authenticity of Paul’s Letters which existed long before the Bible.

.
 
TonyBS said:
Baha’u’llah is the King of Kings, here is His Tablet to the Kings reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-105.html

It is a Fact The Most Great Names become The most awful names to the people that reject Gods Messengers.

This is known by God and with this He blesses the people that overcome.

Regards Tony
Click to expand...
Tony, He wrote the tablets himself, about himself. How can I explain Baha’u’llah’s behavior? I’m thinking that Baha’u’llah has megalomania, a psychological state characterized by delusions of grandeur.
 
worldcitizen said:
QURAN

39:23 God has sent down the best hadith, a book that is consistent, relating/contrasting/repeating.

31:6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

[31:6]* Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution. (Rashad)

7:185

Which hadith after this one will they acknowledge?*

45:6 These are God’s signs that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and His signs, do they acknowledge?

45:7 Woe to every sinful fabricator.
Click to expand...
The quran already warning of corruption within itself before the death of muhammad
 
JimmyDFG said:
Tony, He wrote the tablets himself, about himself. How can I explain Baha’u’llah’s behavior? I’m thinking that Baha’u’llah has megalomania, a psychological state characterized by delusions of grandeur.
Click to expand...
Oh dear Lord Jimmy.

Come on. This is getting to new levels of imagination.

There was nothing but humility in ALL aspects of Baha’u’llah’s life.

His Apostles learnt humility from Him. If anyone was to praise His Apostles for all the services they had done to mankind, they were known to cry from embarrassment.

Please…

.
 
JimmyDFG said:
The quran already warning of corruption within itself before the death of muhammad
Click to expand...
All religions suffer corruption at some later point after the ascension of their Founders, Christianity included.

Man-made interpretations is the main culprit.

.
 
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