Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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TonyBS said:
The Word contains all the Clues…ALL!

Free Will is a gift when used in the knowledge that God Doeth as He Willeth.

The Key - One God and His Purpose is One. Our next goal is the Unity of Mankind as its peace and security is unattainable until Unity is firmly established.

Regards Tony

Regards Tony
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Yes the Word is Jesus. The only way to the Father who reconciles the world to Himself.

MJ
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
I read that and think that if Paul was so crafty as to destroy Christian faith all by himself it must have been God’s will that this man be accepted into the Church and deliberately corrupt it. Is God so impotent as to not give the apostles revelation concerning this Man Paul and warn about him? How was one man able to destroy the Church set up by God? I think you give Paul too much credit and you also show a lack of belief in God’s power to redeem sinners if you think God cannot redeem a man who persecuted Christians at first. Why can’t God do this? Must one be utterly pure? Are you utterly pure?

Also I don’t think it follows that because Paul speaks about circumstances that Jesus did not, that therefore they are inauthentic or somehow mistaken. Saint Peter and Saint John in their epistles speak about things Jesus didn’t directly mention either, yet it is accepted because we know the Spirit was among the apostles guiding them into all truth, the same as Paul. The doctrines you mention like Original sin are present in the Genesis account or do you deny that God cursed humanity in that account, man to work all his life and die and woman to give birth in pain? The entire story of the Bible is about how God’s creation by its own will went entirely wrong, how we were corrupted from the beginning and the rescue operation mounted by God in Abraham then through Israel leading up to Jesus Christ. Also Paul was not the first to call Jesus the Son of God, it is present in Gospels and Jesus it affirms it. Part of Mark’s gospel is to establish that exact point that Jesus is the Son of God.
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I do not know by what kind of intend(good or evil) but Paul added something in religion and faith. Ofcourse God could prevent such thing to destroy faith and religion in any way but we cannot know wisdom and wish of God. But adding or changing something in faith is not duty of human who did not get revelation from God. And I am not sure if any one Paul or other apostles would take revelation. Apostles could get inspiration which is usual for moraly high people but revelation is particular inspiration which come to prophets. Inspiration could help to understand revelation more much but it cannot supersede with revelation. So inspiration could not establish a new faith. Act of destroying is very easy. With one match any one can inflame a home. God allow human what wish to do by free will. There had been many new evil/wrong denomination and thought in Islam but most of Muslims followed the way of prophet Muhammad and His Sahabas which is the most straight way. We believe Islam is religion of God but if we(Muslims) do not maintain our religion it would be destroyed in any way. So it is work of Christians to keep the original faith and religion. God can redeem sins if sinner repent for sins and do good deeds. So Paul gave up to persecute follower of Jesus and that was very good. And Paul should support to spread the original form of faith which would be very high credit for him. Perhaps Paul struggled and worked much more than any one to spread faith. But Paul had added something in faith and faith was belong to him partly in any way so that should be the reason why he struggled so much. Thoughts of Paul caused many conflicts in Christianity and with Jews and Muslims. I am very sinful and I always forswear for my sins.

Did S.Peter and John added something in faith? The duty of Holy Spirit is to bring revelation but not to keep and guide apostles in every way. and that thought Church to be under guidance of Spirit is not reliable. We know Church did many mistakes and even evil acts. God did not curse humanbeing but God sent humanbeing in exam to experience them. The fault of Adam was not reason of curse and God is not evil or injustice to charge someone because of other fault. how Satan seduced Adam yet it is going on lead astray descendants of Him. Adam repented for His fault and God accepted. Satan always try to seduce we and prophets point the way to be saved from that. Duty of prophets(or God himself) is not sacrifice themselves for our sins. But it is our work to improve that in guidance of prophets. Jesus was used to be called Son of God metaphorical but someone understood that as literally.
 
MartinJordan said:
Strange you admitted going for Mass and this is what you learned. Where is this Jesus only you’re talking about?

I think you’re confused who Jesus is despite claiming you listen to him.

MJ
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Where did I say I learnt this in Mass Martin?

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Servant19 said:
Where did I say I learnt this in Mass Martin?

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What is this “Jesus only” Christianity? Not what the Catholic Church reaches let alone all of orthodox Christianity.

Maybe you’re confused with Oneness Pentecostalism from early 20th century.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
What is this “Jesus only” Christianity? Not what the Catholic Church reaches let alone all of orthodox Christianity.

Maybe you’re confused with Oneness Pentecostalism from early 20th century.

MJ
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I beg to differ Martin.

It is all over this forum from top to toe. 🙂

.
 
MartinJordan said:
That you’ve learnt nothing?

MJ
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No Martin, we have learned lots about your belief in Jesus the Christ to which we thank you for sharing.

I am amazed of the oneness of that belief and our ability to separate it over some man made conceptions of God based on our understanding.

Personally I do not see much a divide at all except the divide we make.

The rich history of the Church can never be lost as it has Carried the Word through to its fulfillment.

I consider some comments above where people say “Our God is not your God”…Even the Catholic Church does not agree with that. At least it agrees we all worship the same One God.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
No Martin, we have learned lots about your belief in Jesus the Christ to which we thank you for sharing.

I am amazed of the oneness of that belief and our ability to separate it over some man made conceptions of God based on our understanding.

Personally I do not see much a divide at all except the divide we make.

The rich history of the Church can never be lost as it has Carried the Word through to its fulfillment.

I consider some comments above where people say “Our God is not your God”…Even the Catholic Church does not agree with that. At least it agrees we all worship the same One God.

Regards Tony
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These are all "nice " sentiments. And I have no doubt you mean well. However let me ask: What is the Mass about? 🙂

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
These are all "nice " sentiments. And I have no doubt you mean well. However let me ask: What is the Mass about? 🙂

MJ
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To me It would be about Loving God through Worship and Service to our Lord Jesus the Christ.

I have only sat in on a few Mass services, but I must admit I was uncomfortable with the show in front of me.

To me I partake of the Bread which is the Knowledge of Christ and the Blood which is the Love of Christ at any time I can during the day when the material world has not distracted me from His remembrance.

I find life is about trying to make His remembrance unrestrained by constant reflection and prayerful attitude to life based on His Word.

Regards Tony
 
I owe everything to Catholics, priests and others who gave me the most beautiful mother in the world and opened my eyes forever to the Beauty of Jesus. And above all it was Catholics that taught me love of Jesus and others.

When I was a child the church ran ‘missions’ and I was in love with Jesus so much that I couldn’t wait to go to them.

As a child I wanted to become a priest. The church gave me spiritual life and I can never repay it for that gift.

What made me leave? One day in assembly. The brother gave a talk to us about how the Jews were evil and of Satan and it was so different from the loving message that I learnt from Jesus as a child that I gradually drifted away but was angry why we have to condemn others in order to exalt ourselves. As I heard more condemnation than love I felt no longer attracted as it was love that lighted my heart.

I felt then that the church had drifted from its roots of love one another into this unloving and unfriendly attitude that seemed to be more and more acceptable. So I took to drink and all sorts of vices and vowed there was no God.

However after I met the Baha’is I found unconditional,love not condemnation, acceptance not rejection and was surprised to learn that they loved and welcomed and accept ALL as equals and condemned no other religion and then that message of Jesus shined out again. That selfless love for all regardless of worthiness or belief just unconditional love for all which Jesus taught I rediscovered in the Baha’i Faith.

I had found the true spirit of the Catholic Church I had fell in love with and adored as a child re emerging in the Bahai Faith and I see their focus is always on a suffering humanity not themselves. And it’s that love that Jesus taught I have found again and am now reunited with my Lord once again.
 
TonyBS said:
To me It would be about Loving God through Worship and Service to our Lord Jesus the Christ.

I have only sat in on a few Mass services, but I must admit I was uncomfortable with the show in front of me.

To me I partake of the Bread which is the Knowledge of Christ and the Blood which is the Love of Christ at any time I can during the day when the material world has not distracted me from His remembrance.

I find life is about trying to make His remembrance unrestrained by constant reflection and prayerful attitude to life based on His Word.

Regards Tony
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It isn’t for our Lord Jesus Christ that is Jesus only. This means you’ve learned…?

MJ
 
worldcitizen said:
I owe everything to Catholics, priests and others who gave me the most beautiful mother in the world and opened my eyes forever to the Beauty of Jesus. And above all it was Catholics that taught me love of Jesus and others.

When I was a child the church ran ‘missions’ and I was in love with Jesus so much that I couldn’t wait to go to them.

As a child I wanted to become a priest. The church gave me spiritual life and I can never repay it for that gift.

What made me leave? One day in assembly. The brother gave a talk to us about how the Jews were evil and of Satan and it was so different from the loving message that I learnt from Jesus as a child that I gradually drifted away but was angry why we have to condemn others in order to exalt ourselves. As I heard more condemnation than love I felt no longer attracted as it was love that lighted my heart.

I felt then that the church had drifted from its roots of love one another into this unloving and unfriendly attitude that seemed to be more and more acceptable. So I took to drink and all sorts of vices and vowed there was no God.

However after I met the Baha’is I found unconditional,love not condemnation, acceptance not rejection and was surprised to learn that they loved and welcomed and accept ALL as equals and condemned no other religion and then that message of Jesus shined out again. That selfless love for all regardless of worthiness or belief just unconditional love for all which Jesus taught I rediscovered in the Baha’i Faith.

I had found the true spirit of the Catholic Church I had fell in love with and adored as a child re emerging in the Bahai Faith and I see their focus is always on a suffering humanity not themselves. And it’s that love that Jesus taught I have found again and am now reunited with my Lord once again.
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No wonder you don’t know that the Jews are the Chosen people.

What Catholic Parish did you attend?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
No wonder you don’t know that the Jews are the Chosen people.

What Catholic Parish did you attend?

MJ
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I believe he also heard condemnation of lots of other people too Martin, not just the Chosen people. Besides, where did that child learn about condemnation of Jews?

There are good evidence of such teachings from the Church. Maybe even Popes didn’t realise they were the Chosen people?

.
 
Servant19 said:
I believe he also heard condemnation of lots of other people too Martin, not just the Chosen people. Besides, where did that child learn about condemnation of Jews?

There are good evidence of such teachings from the Church. Maybe even Popes didn’t realise they were the Chosen people?

.
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Ive never heard even one Catholic ever say this and even myself never heard such condemnation to Jews. .Ive grown up learning that Salvation is from the Jews.

Now, what is the Mass about? Tony replied. I asked you actually.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Ive never heard even one Catholic ever say this and even myself never heard such condemnation to Jews. .Ive grown up learning that Salvation is from the Jews.

Now, what is the Mass about? Tony replied. I asked you actually.

MJ
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Mass is about love for all humanity.

.
 
Servant19 said:
Mass is about love for all humanity.

.
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Sorry but that’s not accurate at all. Not that the Love for Humanity is not a very honourable or Godly thing to do. It is.

Want to try again? The choice is yours.🙂

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
No wonder you don’t know that the Jews are the Chosen people.

What Catholic Parish did you attend?

MJ
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In Australia. I went to De La Salle,Ashfield, NSW.
When I was a child it was a parish in Rushcutters Bay NSW I think St Canices Church where I used to go to the Mission was so beautiful. Learnt so much.

stcanice.org.au

So many wonderful memories engraved on my heart forever. I was educated as a Catholic for 15 years. Then I strayed away for about 5 years.

I came from a broken home where my father had abandoned me so I suffered depression and rejection and couldn’t study. Then I took up various jobs and one day I became disillusioned with life and decided to end it.

I went to see the poor shelters and went & visited the different sects and asked them why, if they talk about love aren’t they united and just saying bad things about each other. They couldn’t answer so I went and visited other religions and they all condemned each other and said the other was false. I said we had to have love in the world and forget our differences but they were all stubborn and insisted they were right and all others wrong. I could never accept that fellow human beings treat each other so cruelly. Wars and hatred, prejudice and division when it was so easy to choose love. I saw no hope for humanity…

At that time I decided to end my life and took 50 largactil and slashed my wrists and ended up being found and taken to hospital. I said I didn’t want to live in a world that doesn’t have love. I was for days in a coma and for a long time after had double vision.

Then I was moved to a mental asylum, But as soon as I began speaking about the world needing love they would grab me and stab me with an injection and lock me in a room in a strait jacket. This happened again and again for a total of 6 suicide attempts.

I was calling for help but no answer. They ended up diagnosing me as a chronic schizopheprenic and gave me 6 course of electric shock treatment to try and make me forget about love and to make it not matter anymore.

My poor mother couldn’t bear to take me home so a friend at work said he knew some friends who would put me up for a few weeks until I recovered. They were Baha’is but they didn’t tell me that.

Then I met more Baha’is and I liked them but when I found out they believed in God I was angry and I felt sorry for them. I felt that here we have an almost perfect solution to my dilemma only there is a God involved. And God meant ‘I’m right and all others are false’ and that’s what I had run away from. I was tired of division, prejudice and hatred in the world.

But it troubled me greatly the Baha’is happiness and steadiness of soul. People who believe in God should be condemning other faiths but the Bahais loved them all which made me upset that why religious people are not fighting so I had to try and expose the Baha’is as liars and deceivers. I tested and asked questions and no matter what I threw at them they always had an excellent answer which made me more mad as I was positive they were false. So I started reading their books to try and find some way of disproving their philosophy as a wild utopian dream that can never be,

I started writing a book against a chapter of Abdul-Baha called Proofs and evidences of the Existance of God. My Book was called the proofs and evidences of the non existence of God.

I was winning and absolutely certain I had beaten Abdul-Bah as these Baha’is were false and I was absolutely sure I could prove it. I then came across some writings I didn’t understand and the longer I tried to think of a counter argument the harder it became until I realised Abdul-Baha was right and I was wrong so I then said ‘OK God you’re there’.

Then I began reading some other Bahai Books and for 3 days and nights when it dawned on me what this was all about I wept for days with joy at what I’d discovered unintentionally by opposing the Bahai Faith with all my heart, mind and soul.

When I found out who Baha’u’llah was I wanted to give my life for Him. I travelled the world announcing the joyful tidings. I was never worthy of this blessing unasked and even I opposed it vehemently. That was 40 years ago and I’m still unworthy and will never understand why I was blessed by the Holy Spirit and Angels of heaven. my Father abandoned me but God took me as His own and He is the best Father anyone could want. I should have just died in the gutter. I was an enemy of the Baha’is yet He still kept showing me and guiding me until the Holy Spirit announced to my heart that my Beloved Lord has come and the world will be loved back to life again. There is no person more unworthy that exists than me. I live an illusion now hoping , praying although futile to thank Him befittingly but no deed I do can ever thank Him.

The Catholics instilled into me the love of Jesus in my early days until the Baha’is came along and fanned the flame of my love for Him into a blazing sun.

All I can say is there’s ‘something very beautiful’ waiting to be discovered. Keep looking. Keep questioning. Keep challenging. My biggest frustration is I can’t give this gift to anyone. One must earn it according to the intensity of their love for the Lord in His Heart.

Sorry if anyone is offended by anything I have written in this post but I feel I can share with you because of your love deep love for your Lord.
 
worldcitizen said:
In Australia. I went to De La Salle,Ashfield, NSW.
When I was a child it was a parish in Rushcutters Bay NSW I think St Canices Church where I used to go to the Mission was so beautiful. Learnt so much.

stcanice.org.au

So many wonderful memories engraved on my heart forever. I was educated as a Catholic for 15 years. Then I strayed away for about 5 years.

I came from a broken home where my father had abandoned me so I suffered depression and rejection and couldn’t study. Then I took up various jobs and one day I became disillusioned with life and decided to end it.

I went to see the poor shelters and went & visited the different sects and asked them why, if they talk about love aren’t they united and just saying bad things about each other. They couldn’t answer so I went and visited other religions and they all condemned each other and said the other was false. I said we had to have love in the world and forget our differences but they were all stubborn and insisted they were right and all others wrong. I could never accept that fellow human beings treat each other so cruelly. Wars and hatred, prejudice and division when it was so easy to choose love. I saw no hope for humanity…

At that time I decided to end my life and took 50 largactil and slashed my wrists and ended up being found and taken to hospital. I said I didn’t want to live in a world that doesn’t have love. I was for days in a coma and for a long time after had double vision.

Then I was moved to a mental asylum, But as soon as I began speaking about the world needing love they would grab me and stab me with an injection and lock me in a room in a strait jacket. This happened again and again for a total of 6 suicide attempts.

I was calling for help but no answer. They ended up diagnosing me as a chronic schizopheprenic and gave me 6 course of electric shock treatment to try and make me forget about love and to make it not matter anymore.

My poor mother couldn’t bear to take me home so a friend at work said he knew some friends who would put me up for a few weeks until I recovered. They were Baha’is but they didn’t tell me that.

Then I met more Baha’is and I liked them but when I found out they believed in God I was angry and I felt sorry for them. I felt that here we have an almost perfect solution to my dilemma only there is a God involved. And God meant ‘I’m right and all others are false’ and that’s what I had run away from. I was tired of division, prejudice and hatred in the world.

But it troubled me greatly the Baha’is happiness and steadiness of soul. People who believe in God should be condemning other faiths but the Bahais loved them all which made me upset that why religious people are not fighting so I had to try and expose the Baha’is as liars and deceivers. I tested and asked questions and no matter what I threw at them they always had an excellent answer which made me more mad as I was positive they were false. So I started reading their books to try and find some way of disproving their philosophy as a wild utopian dream that can never be,

I started writing a book against a chapter of Abdul-Baha called Proofs and evidences of the Existance of God. My Book was called the proofs and evidences of the non existence of God.

I was winning and absolutely certain I had beaten Abdul-Bah as these Baha’is were false and I was absolutely sure I could prove it. I then came across some writings I didn’t understand and the longer I tried to think of a counter argument the harder it became until I realised Abdul-Baha was right and I was wrong so I then said ‘OK God you’re there’.

Then I began reading some other Bahai Books and for 3 days and nights when it dawned on me what this was all about I wept for days with joy at what I’d discovered unintentionally by opposing the Bahai Faith with all my heart, mind and soul.

When I found out who Baha’u’llah was I wanted to give my life for Him. I travelled the world announcing the joyful tidings. I was never worthy of this blessing unasked and even I opposed it vehemently. That was 40 years ago and I’m still unworthy and will never understand why I was blessed by the Holy Spirit and Angels of heaven. my Father abandoned me but God took me as His own and He is the best Father anyone could want. I should have just died in the gutter. I was an enemy of the Baha’is yet He still kept showing me and guiding me until the Holy Spirit announced to my heart that my Beloved Lord has come and the world will be loved back to life again. There is no person more unworthy that exists than me. I live an illusion now hoping , praying although futile to thank Him befittingly but no deed I do can ever thank Him.

The Catholics instilled into me the love of Jesus in my early days until the Baha’is came along and fanned the flame of my love for Him into a blazing sun.

All I can say is there’s ‘something very beautiful’ waiting to be discovered. Keep looking. Keep questioning. Keep challenging. My biggest frustration is I can’t give this gift to anyone. One must earn it according to the intensity of their love for the Lord in His Heart.

Sorry if anyone is offended by anything I have written in this post but I feel I can share with you because of your love deep love for your Lord.
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Love you so so much brother David.

I pray we meet one day. My heart longs for it!

God bless your strength and spirit and fortitude, gifts given to you by God. How incredibly inspiring your story is!

.
 
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