Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

[JimmyDFG]

In the non-Catholic forum. Absolutely allowed!

MJ

Thank you Martin

 

[arthra]

Tony I reviewed the wiki links you presented. They are informative. However, some of the links in the wiki page while they have a title they don’t have content. The what I’m really looking for is if the Shia have a history of Mohammed like the Sunni bukhari? If do I’d be curious if it mirrored Bukhara. If it does they have the same problem. If not then the Shia book may be more authentic if it’s earlier than Bukhara.

Just a note… Recall that many of the Shiah sources are not translated into English or available or online as some of the Sunni sources… also, the Shiah were persecuted early on.

The Hadith literature is vast and most not earlier than a few centuries after the events they describe.

 

[jlhargus]

Hi Chabambou,

Nice to meet you!

You ask a very valid question and are very fair minded to be looking at both sides of the argument.

As we know people make mistakes, sometimes records get lost or can’t be verified so human stories passed down the ages may well be lost very inaccurate or distorted.

But with God is all knowledge correct?

So here’s how I get infallible uncorrupted knowledge about whether something about a Messenger or Prophet is true or not. This is just my system but it works every time. But I encourage everyone to use this system

This method requires belief that God sent all the Prophets and Messengers that they aren’t in competition with each other.

Now, say for instance, I am a Baha’i and I believe in Baha’u’llah and His Knowledge is the knowledge of God and infallible. Now if a 1,000 people tell me Muhammad was evil but Baha’u’llah tells me He’s a man of God then I know He’s a man of God because an infallible Messenger of God has spoken it and it cannot be wrong or incorrect.

If someone said terrible things about Moses, likewise Christians would refer to Christ and believe what He said not mortal men.

So, according to Baha’u’llah Muhammad is pure and holy and those are false lies propagated to defame Him. Muhammad defended Jesus. Jesus defended Moses. Baha’u’llah defended Muhammad.

When God speaks we don’t have to question further as He is always right.

Yes ,when God speaks and we know its His Word we don’t have to question. Yet when one claims God speaks and it contradicts His previous Word. We can know, without question, God didn’t speak. I do believe God sent all the Prophets and messengers that they were not in competition with each other. But none were sent after Jesus, who was God come in the flesh.

 

[Servant19]

Yes ,when God speaks and we know its His Word we don’t have to question. Yet when one claims God speaks and it contradicts His previous Word. We can know, without question, God didn’t speak. I do believe God sent all the Prophets and messengers that they were not in competition with each other. But none were sent after Jesus, who was God come in the flesh.

Did God teach “an eye for an eye” or “turn the other cheek”?

Which one of these contradicting actions should I apply to my life?

.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Did God teach “an eye for an eye” or “turn the other cheek”?

Which one of these contradicting actions should I apply to my life?

.

You’d get your answer in the New Testament

 

[Servant19]

Are you insinuating you have knowledge the average person does not possess? Or are you one of these so called “manifestation of god”?

Heaven forbid I even dream of being a “manifestation of God”

Please Jimmy. I am but a speck of dust under your shoes.

But this speck of dust has been graced with something which is beautiful and loving and I feel embraced:

1 Cor13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

.

 

[Servant19]

You’d get your answer in the New Testament

But is it two opposing actions Jimmy?

.

 

[TonyBS]

Yes ,when God speaks and we know its His Word we don’t have to question. Yet when one claims God speaks and it contradicts His previous Word. We can know, without question, God didn’t speak. I do believe God sent all the Prophets and messengers that they were not in competition with each other. But none were sent after Jesus, who was God come in the flesh.

I think one needs to really think about Mathew 23 - biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NLT

This is applicable for all times and if we do not think it is applicable to us now, we would be wrong. From verse 37 we are being warned

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’

This lesson could be good to consider, about what has happened “After” Jesus - biblegateway.com/resources/ivp-nt/Jesus-Challenges-Jews-Believe-Him

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

I think one needs to really think about Mathew 23 - biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NLT

This is applicable for all times and if we do not think it is applicable to us now, we would be wrong. From verse 37 we are being warned

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’

This lesson could be good to consider, about what has happened “After” Jesus - biblegateway.com/resources/ivp-nt/Jesus-Challenges-Jews-Believe-Him

Regards Tony

What is the Muslim view though?

MJ

 

[Techno2000]

I think one needs to really think about Mathew 23 - biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NLT

This is applicable for all times and if we do not think it is applicable to us now, we would be wrong. From verse 37 we are being warned

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’

This lesson could be good to consider, about what has happened “After” Jesus - biblegateway.com/resources/ivp-nt/Jesus-Challenges-Jews-Believe-Him

Regards Tony

Y’all always have to go back to the Bible… why can’t you find answers from the Baha’i Bible.

 

[Servant19]

Y’all always have to go back to the Bible… why can’t you find answers from the Baha’i Bible.

To the Pharisees, even The Word Incarnate wasn’t good enough.

They wanted more, those brood of vipers.

.

 

[jlhargus]

Did God teach “an eye for an eye” or “turn the other cheek”?

Which one of these contradicting actions should I apply to my life?

.

Had you ever read the OT and NT you wouldn’t have asked such a question. It would be a no brainer.

 

[Servant19]

Had you ever read the OT and NT you wouldn’t have asked such a question. It would be a no brainer.

Theres a lot of people in this forum that say such things, yet I never hear a reasonable post explaining the situation from any of them

Could you be the person that has any form of apologetic to this?

.

 

[jlhargus]

I think one needs to really think about Mathew 23 - biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NLT

This is applicable for all times and if we do not think it is applicable to us now, we would be wrong. From verse 37 we are being warned

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now, look, your house is abandoned and desolate.39 For I tell you this, you will never see me again until you say, ‘Blessings on the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’

This lesson could be good to consider, about what has happened “After” Jesus - biblegateway.com/resources/ivp-nt/Jesus-Challenges-Jews-Believe-Him

Regards Tony

You will have to be more specific, what is your point?

And what is your point of Mt

 

[Techno2000]

To the Pharisees, even The Word Incarnate wasn’t good enough.

They wanted more, those brood of vipers.

.

Again you prove my point, that there is no substance in the Baha’i Bible, you must always have to use our Bible to try, and make your point.

 

[jlhargus]

Did God teach “an eye for an eye” or “turn the other cheek”?

Which one of these contradicting actions should I apply to my life? .

God taught both the first, through a prophet. The second in person, God in the flesh. The first was under the OT law given to a specific people in covenant relationship with God. God was forming and teaching that people. “An eye for an eye” is teaching them how to be just. The punishment must fit the crime in other words don’t over punish in anger, but in proportion to the crime. Jesus, God come in the flesh, is elevating the moral standard, not contradicting it, teaching mercy.

 

[Techno2000]

Did God teach “an eye for an eye” or “turn the other cheek”?

Which one of these contradicting actions should I apply to my life?

.

Turn the other cheek… is a virtue and has saintly merit, it would be wise to choose that to increase your glory in Heaven.

 

[TonyBS]

You will have to be more specific, what is your point?

And what is your point of Mt

The point is this is applicable to those that do not accept Muhammad.

It is applicable to all that do not Accept Gods Messengers.

It is applicable to those that do, it keeps them humble in the gift of faith given to them.

God bless and regards Tony

 

[Techno2000]

The point is this is applicable to those that do not accept Muhammad.

It is applicable to all that do not Accept Gods Messengers.

**If therefore they will say to you, “Behold, he is in the desert”, you should not go out, or “Behold, he is in an inner room”, do not believe it.
**

 

[JimmyDFG]

But is it two opposing actions Jimmy?

.

Is it confusing for you Servant?