Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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Servant19 said:
Hadiths have proven to be unreliable Jimmy.

Many contradict with each other and even more still contradict with the Quran.

In a court of law they would be all thrown out …

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The quran, upon which all muslims depend for their fundamental dogma, is believed to be descended directly from allah to muhammed known to all muslims as “the prophet” who is simply the transmitter of the message. Considering muhammad was illiterate so than who wrote the quran?
One of the earliest quran manuscript being discovered was the Yemen manuscript and the Birmingham quran . There were some differences, though slight, being found from the quran of today. If it was supposed to be God’s word recorded verbatim, then logically the differences should not be there. As it is, the “truth” died with muhammad and any proof was being burned by Caliph Uthman. We can only believe that the present quran is the unaltered God’s word because muslims say so.
 
JimmyDFG said:
The quran, upon which all muslims depend for their fundamental dogma, is believed to be descended directly from allah to muhammed known to all muslims as “the prophet” who is simply the transmitter of the message. Considering muhammad was illiterate so than who wrote the quran?
One of the earliest quran manuscript being discovered was the Yemen manuscript and the Birmingham quran . There were some differences, though slight, being found from the quran of today. If it was supposed to be God’s word recorded verbatim, then logically the differences should not be there. As it is, the “truth” died with muhammad and any proof was being burned by Caliph Uthman. We can only believe that the present quran is the unaltered God’s word because muslims say so.
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Firstly illiterate doesn’t mean that Muhammad could not speak. What He heard the Father say, He spoke, just like Jesus.

Secondly, in general, don’t you think God has the power to change an illiterate into a fully literate prophet by just saying BE, and it is?

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Servant19 said:
Firstly illiterate doesn’t mean that Muhammad could not speak. What He heard the Father say, He spoke, just like Jesus.

Secondly, in general, don’t you think God has the power to change an illiterate into a fully literate prophet by just saying BE, and it is?

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muhammad is thought to have lived between A.D. 570 and A.D. 632, and according to muslim tradition, he received the “revelations” that make up the quran between A.D. 610 and A.D. 632. The message was not written at that time . Instead, they were preserved in the 'memories of men,
Most of the revelations received by the muhammad were committed to memory, parts were written down on parchment, stone, palm leaves. Caliph Abu Bakr, the first leader of the Muslim community after muhammad, ordered the collection of all quranic material in the form of a book,The final written version, considered the authoritative account, was completed under the direction of Caliph Uthman ibn Affan, the third leader of the muslim community, in about A.D. 650, and was distributed to the main cities under muslim rule.muslims believe that the quran they read today is the same text that was standardized under Uthman, and regard it as the exact record of the revelations that were delivered to muhammad,

But you are right Servant, allah could change that by just saying “be”. But then again why wouldn’t allah just give him the quran and the ability to read?
 
Servant19 said:
Firstly illiterate doesn’t mean that Muhammad could not speak. What He heard the Father say, He spoke, just like Jesus.

Secondly, in general, don’t you think God has the power to change an illiterate into a fully literate prophet by just saying BE, and it is?

.
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But, he did not hear the Father. According to tradition, it was Gabriel who related God’s words. While on the subject of Gabriel, he first demanded that Mohamed read and repeated the demand three times, abusing and choking Mohamed in the process. Didn’t he know that Mohamed couldn’t read?
If Gabriel had the Koran for Mohamed to read, why didn’t he just give the book to him? Just wondering.
 
Ontheway said:
But, he did not hear the Father. According to tradition, it was Gabriel who related God’s words. While on the subject of Gabriel, he first demanded that Mohamed read and repeated the demand three times, abusing and choking Mohamed in the process. Didn’t he know that Mohamed couldn’t read?
If Gabriel had the Koran for Mohamed to read, why didn’t he just give the book to him? Just wondering.
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This is a good question . 🙂

MJ
 
Ontheway said:
But, he did not hear the Father. According to tradition, it was Gabriel who related God’s words. While on the subject of Gabriel, he first demanded that Mohamed read and repeated the demand three times, abusing and choking Mohamed in the process. Didn’t he know that Mohamed couldn’t read?
If Gabriel had the Koran for Mohamed to read, why didn’t he just give the book to him? Just wondering.
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I’m wondering why we are wondering 😉

As the Koran hard copies were written around 18 - 20 years after the passing of Muhammad, that is twice to at least 4 times as fast as the Books of the New Testament were put to hard copies.

Thus its history was recorded much quicker.

Why did not Christ write the Bible, God could have done that too?

Just wondering why it is an issue?

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
I’m wondering why we are wondering 😉

As the Koran hard copies were written around 18 - 20 years after the passing of Muhammad, that is twice to at least 4 times as fast as the Books of the New Testament were put to hard copies.

Thus its history was recorded much quicker.

Why did not Christ write the Bible, God could have done that too?

Just wondering why it is an issue?

Regards Tony
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You’re replying to a question with a question Tony
 
TonyBS said:
I’m wondering why we are wondering 😉

As the Koran hard copies were written around 18 - 20 years after the passing of Muhammad, that is twice to at least 4 times as fast as the Books of the New Testament were put to hard copies.

Thus its history was recorded much quicker.

Why did not Christ write the Bible, God could have done that too?

Just wondering why it is an issue?

Regards Tony
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There’s atleast two reasons this was the case. First, the very first disciples and Christians weren’t sure when Christ would return, some of them assumed He would come back soon enough so that a specific, detailed, written account wasn’t required.

Second, the Jewish culture the Apostles grew up and lived in means that oral tradition was the bread and butter of their daily lives. Indeed, the creed that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 15 (where it is said that Christ died, was buried, resurrected on the third day and then appeared to the Apostles) which he received in Jerusalem orally has been analyzed, and most historians and Biblical scholars think that it is not 3 years older than Christ’s death on the cross… that’s much better than 18-20 years, is it not? 😃
 
Micosil said:
There’s atleast two reasons this was the case. First, the very first disciples and Christians weren’t sure when Christ would return, some of them assumed He would come back soon enough so that a specific, detailed, written account wasn’t required.

Second, the Jewish culture the Apostles grew up and lived in means that oral tradition was the bread and butter of their daily lives. Indeed, the creed that Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 15 (where it is said that Christ died, was buried, resurrected on the third day and then appeared to the Apostles) which he received in Jerusalem orally has been analyzed, and most historians and Biblical scholars think that it is not 3 years older than Christ’s death on the cross… that’s much better than 18-20 years, is it not? 😃
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Tank you for the reply…In the end really not an issue from my point of view 😃

I believe the Koran contains an accurate Rendition of Gods Word and I do not have to question that… 👍

I believe the Bible contains an accurate Rendition of Gods Word, I do not have to question that.

Regards Tony
 
I understand Tony. I am a Maronite Catholic. I I believe the creed whether niceness or apostles accurately describe my faith. I and fellow Catholics use the magisterium, sacred tradition, and sacred scripture. To guide our path. We acknowledge that totter Faith’s don’t see Catholism or Christianity as we do. But they follow the light of God or the hidden God the best they can Islam Bahaism follow into a different category as you both profess to be children of Abraham. But your ways are not our ways. So on this Good Friday let us call to mind the solemness of today and weep.
 
TonyBS said:
I’m wondering why we are wondering 😉

As the Koran hard copies were written around 18 - 20 years after the passing of Muhammad, that is twice to at least 4 times as fast as the Books of the New Testament were put to hard copies.

Thus its history was recorded much quicker.

Why did not Christ write the Bible, God could have done that too?

Just wondering why it is an issue?

Regards Tony
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Since muhammad was the only one who heard the word of allah. So the only one that could verify the authenticity of the quran would be muhammad. How are we to know the quran is the word of allah as muslims believes it is, considering the quran “written around 18-20 years after the passing of muhammad”
 
As to the Qur’an…

Yes Muhammad was illiterate and Arabic itself was evolving a written language… but recall that people who depend on verbal statements usually have a fairly strong recollection and memory. Not only that but after the Quranic verses were revealed there were people who recited them regularly.

Zaid ibn Thabit actually collected the revealed Qur’an in writing during the lifetime of the Prophet.

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#Compilation

For me one of the people who stand as a testimony that the Qur’an was accurate was Ali ibn abi Talib who was present with Muhammad from the beginning of the revelations until the passing of the Prophet and not only that he was the fourth caliph after Uthman the third caliph was murdered and the Qur’an was basically set to writing during the caliphate of Uthman. Had there been any major errors in transmission Ali would have had them corrected as the fourth Caliph.
 
TonyBS said:
I’m wondering why we are wondering 😉 As the Koran hard copies were written around 18 - 20 years after the passing of Muhammad, that is twice to at least 4 times as fast as the Books of the New Testament were put to hard copies. Thus its history was recorded much quicker. Why did not Christ write the Bible, God could have done that too? Just wondering why it is an issue?
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I am wondering and think Its an issue because, supposedly, Gabriel had the very Koran right there and wanted Mohammad to take and read it. Why was it necessary years latter to collect, from scattered sources, what others wrote and others years latter remembered? How reliable is that? What authority decided, which writings and memories were actually Mohammad’s sayings, were the deciders infallible? Perhaps some were mistaken or just made up something, in order to have their particular views in the Koran. Where is that Koran Gabriel had, are you sure it wasn’t the Old & New Testament bible? How do you know? Isn’t it odd God would hand a fished book to Mohammed and he didn’t keep it?

Christ wrote nothing and the apostles, for the most part, wrote only to established congregations, who were already living out, teaching and preaching that which had already been received from the apostles. The NT epistles were written mostly to clarify or settle problems in already established teaching communities.

If your prophets are mentioned in the OT & NT why are those books not included in the Koran? Christians didn’t throw out the inspired Word of God, in the OT, but included them in the inspired writings of the NT. If writings are inspired they are God’s Word and cannot be ignored and excluded.

Why didn’t Mohammed go first to the people of God the Christians? Christ went first to God’s people, the Jews, then the Word went from Jewish Christians to the Gentiles. The Koran is a total disconnect from Gods people and Word, received in the Bible.

7872
 
jlhargus said:
I am wondering and think Its an issue because, supposedly, Gabriel had the very Koran right there and wanted Mohammad to take and read it. Why was it necessary years latter to collect, from scattered sources, what others wrote and others years latter remembered? How reliable is that? What authority decided, which writings and memories were actually Mohammad’s sayings, were the deciders infallible? Perhaps some were mistaken or just made up something, in order to have their particular views in the Koran. Where is that Koran Gabriel had, are you sure it wasn’t the Old & New Testament bible? How do you know? Isn’t it odd God would hand a fished book to Mohammed and he didn’t keep it?

Christ wrote nothing and the apostles, for the most part, wrote only to established congregations, who were already living out, teaching and preaching that which had already been received from the apostles. The NT epistles were written mostly to clarify or settle problems in already established teaching communities.

If your prophets are mentioned in the OT & NT why are those books not included in the Koran? Christians didn’t throw out the inspired Word of God, in the OT, but included them in the inspired writings of the NT. If writings are inspired they are God’s Word and cannot be ignored and excluded.

Why didn’t Mohammed go first to the people of God the Christians? Christ went first to God’s people, the Jews, then the Word went from Jewish Christians to the Gentiles. The Koran is a total disconnect from Gods people and Word, received in the Bible.

7872
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Lots of good questions, not for this topic though.

In the end questions we are each to find our own answer for, as the answer lays within the fact that “God doeth as He Willeth”.

In my opinion all the Holy books are one. It matters not how they are compiled, except to know the order of Revelation. We can only read them a word at a time anyway.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
Lots of good questions, not for this topic though.

In the end questions we are each to find our own answer for, as the answer lays within the fact that “God doeth as He Willeth”.

In my opinion all the Holy books are one. It matters not how they are compiled, except to know the order of Revelation. We can only read them a word at a time anyway.

Regards Tony
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Glad we got this out of the way. Opinions, everyone has them. All earthy and subjective.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Glad we got this out of the way. Opinions, everyone has them. All earthy and subjective.

MJ
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Except that it is also the opinion of God. God revers all the Holy Books and sees them all as Holy.

Did Jesus say that He only accepts the Book of Daniel, but the Book of Isaiah is not Holy?
That the Book of Job is good and holy, but the Book of Psalms was not up to the mark?

He acknowledged all the Holy Books of Israel as Holy, for He came to fulfill the Books of Israel.

So now, what about those books outside of Israel? Did God only work in one part of the world and forget about those peoples who lived in the Orient? How were the people of the Orient to hear about God? How were the indigenous peoples to hear about God?
Did God neglect them one and all for 100,000 years until Jesus came?

Let us admire the majestic ways of our Lord.

.
 
Servant19 said:
Except that it is also the opinion of God. God revers all the Holy Books and sees them all as Holy.

Did Jesus say that He only accepts the Book of Daniel, but the Book of Isaiah is not Holy?
That the Book of Job is good and holy, but the Book of Psalms was not up to the mark?

He acknowledged all the Holy Books of Israel as Holy, for He came to fulfill the Books of Israel.

So now, what about those books outside of Israel? Did God only work in one part of the world and forget about those peoples who lived in the Orient? How were the people of the Orient to hear about God? How were the indigenous peoples to hear about God?
Did God neglect them one and all for 100,000 years until Jesus came?

Let us admire the majestic ways of our Lord.

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Books can be burned. They are material things.

Peter: Your words are Spirit Lord and they are Life.

Books arent Holy by themselves. Let Jesus speak to you.

Amen.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Books can be burned. They are material things.

Peter: Your words are Spirit Lord and they are Life.

Books arent Holy by themselves. Let Jesus speak to you.

Amen.

MJ
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That has absolutely nothing to do with my post Martin…

Amen

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