Eastern Catholics, are we really Catholic?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Friar_David_O.Carm
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Chaldean,

Am I correct to assume then that your group has never been Orthodox? Am I correct then that your group does not consider itself to be a Church but simply a Rite? I don’t know the answer to the first question and I’m surprised that if you do not consider yourself to be a Church that you are only a rite. Still could you clarify this for us?

CDL
I am not a historian of my church by any means but I can say that the Church of the East (CotE) recieved the Gospel in its native lanaguage, Aramiac, and was part of the Catholic Church, with St. Ephrem as its high point, until Nestoriam took over. From this point on, I know that the doctrine help by our (some?) bishops was anti-Catholic and I don’t know of any “formal” excommunications (except Nestorious and Theodore), but from that point on, until the 15-16 century, from a theological perspective, we were not catholic or orthodox. Around that time dissident gropu of Bishops of the CotE went to Rome to seek communion and that is when the name “Chaldean Catholic Church” was given to distinguish between the rest of the CotE (today there are at least 3 other segments).

I am fairly sure we are not “just” a rite, whatever that means.
We are a self-governing church with own customs, theology, rubrics, liturgy.
 
I am not a historian of my church by any means but I can say that the Church of the East (CotE) recieved the Gospel in its native lanaguage, Aramiac, and was part of the Catholic Church, with St. Ephrem as its high point, until Nestoriam took over. From this point on, I know that the doctrine help by our (some?) bishops was anti-Catholic and I don’t know of any “formal” excommunications (except Nestorious and Theodore), but from that point on, until the 15-16 century, from a theological perspective, we were not catholic or orthodox. Around that time dissident gropu of Bishops of the CotE went to Rome to seek communion and that is when the name “Chaldean Catholic Church” was given to distinguish between the rest of the CotE (today there are at least 3 other segments).

I am fairly sure we are not “just” a rite, whatever that means.
We are a self-governing church with own customs, theology, rubrics, liturgy.
The problem with your account is that the Church of the East never held to any heretical doctrines and consequently the anathemas against them are false. The Church of the East did not hold to nestorianism which was condemned by Ephesus. They were no more anti-Catholic than the Latins or the Greeks. This is affirmed by the Christological agreement signed by Patriarch Zakkas of the C of E and Pope Paul VI.
 
Thank you. That explains the difference. So you are an Eastern Catholic Church that was never an Orthodox Church. That is wonderful.

Now, the Byzantine Church was an Orthodox Church that came into communion with Rome. We have thorough going Orthodox traditions and patrimony including the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. We are not dishonest or disingenous when we say of ourselves we are “Orthodox in Communion with Rome”. Since you are not Orthodox in communion with Rome it would be incorrect to say that you are. Since we are it is quite correct to say that we are.

CDL
 
The problem with your account is that the Church of the East never held to any heretical doctrines and consequently the anathemas against them are false. The Church of the East did not hold to nestorianism which was condemned by Ephesus. They were no more anti-Catholic than the Latins or the Greeks. This is affirmed by the Christological agreement signed by Patriarch Zakkas of the C of E and Pope Paul VI.
Recently we had a bunch of lectures given by Fr. Andy on Christology. They can be found here:
kaldu.org/Theology_Course_2007/Entire_Course.html

And during these talks Fr. Andy did mention how probably the only real Nestorian was Nestorios himself and the rest of the CotE was labeled at Nestorian. So what you say, I agree with, and so does Fr. Andy. The writings of Theodore, if understood in the proper Eastern manner, add to our Christological understanding, and this is why, we are seeking the excommunication of Theodore to be lifted.
 
Recently we had a bunch of lectures given by Fr. Andy on Christology. They can be found here:
kaldu.org/Theology_Course_2007/Entire_Course.html

And during these talks Fr. Andy did mention how probably the only real Nestorian was Nestorios himself and the rest of the CotE was labeled at Nestorian. So what you say, I agree with, and so does Fr. Andy. The writings of Theodore, if understood in the proper Eastern manner, add to our Christological understanding, and this is why, we are seeking the excommunication of Theodore to be lifted.
The excommunication of Theodore is meaningless considering the fact that his theology is orthodox. An orthodox man who has done nothing wrong can not be excommunicated.
 
The excommunication of Theodore is meaningless considering the fact that his theology is orthodox. An orthodox man who has done nothing wrong can not be excommunicated.
Thats where you are wrong Jimmy. Learn from Padre Pio. He was banned from holding the Divine Liturgy by the Church because of a possibe scandal to the people. But he was obedient, even when the Saint knew the Church was mistaken on this matter.
 
Thats where you are wrong Jimmy. Learn from Padre Pio. He was banned from holding the Divine Liturgy by the Church because of a possibe scandal to the people. But he was obedient, even when the Saint knew the Church was mistaken on this matter.
I must respectfully disagree. The man held to the truth and is a saint as far as I am concerned. No council, no bishop, no matter what see can anathematize the truth or anyone who holds to the truth.
 
I have a question for this thread. Why are we who are Catholic trying our darnest to express a disunity that quite frankly is not there in relation to our hierarchies.

Here are the facts.

There is ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic CHURCH which everyone of us on Sundays confesses. Not 7 churches (or 21 depending how far you want to break up the rites), but One Universal Church under the authority of the Pope. There are I think 22 Rites or Particular Churches that are ALL EQUAL. The Roman Rite is not greater than any of the Eastern Rites nor are any of the Eastern Rites greater than the Roman Rite.

We are all Catholic. That is our bond. We are all Christian. That is our overall heritage. Why in our small ways attempt to tear asunder what Christ prayed to the Father for. “Let them be One as You and I are One.”

I do not care what Rite you are with, you are my brothers and sisters with a bond, that quite frankly all of us should understand, greater than blood. We all have the Holy Spirit in us. We all are the children of God by way of our common Baptism.

To be quite honest, I believe in the filoque clause and what it means. Not because I am a Roman Rite Catholic, but because that is how the Scriptures reveal it to me. That being said, I quite honestly do not care if you believe it or not, you are all my brothers and sisters equally in Christ. I have no problem debating you over the issue which I have in other threads as long as it does not create discension in the Body of Christ.

Concerning the Pope and his relationship to the Universal Church which has also been debated on the thread. The Pope is the Universal Shephard of the West and East. That is one of his titles. He has a role in electing other Patriarchs. For if you do a little study on how a Patriarch is elected it starts with a synod of bishops with consultation from the Pope. After he is elected, he must address the Pope to insure full communion with Rome will continue.

Concerning the original question about are Eastern Catholics, are you really Catholic? The answer is YES. Quite honestly no one on this thread is going to change that.
 
“Orthodox in communion with Rome” is an oxymoron, just like someone claiming to be an atheist who believes in God.

One of the main tenents of Othodoxy today is not being in communion with Rome just as one of the main tenents of atheism is not believeing in God.

Added to that the fact that as Catholics we believe things that that the Orthodox do not.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH,

I think you can set your mind at ease on that: no one here is denying that the Father and the Son are one. Catholics and Orthodox agree on that point.
Well that why I don’t see why all the hub bub if they are One then does it not go that what come from one also comes from the other.🤷 Just a thought.
 
“Orthodox in communion with Rome” is an oxymoron, just like someone claiming to be an atheist who believes in God.

One of the main tenents of Othodoxy today is not being in communion with Rome just as one of the main tenents of atheism is not believeing in God.

Added to that the fact that as Catholics we believe things that that the Orthodox do not.
Despite what you insist there were Orthodox in Communion with Rome before the Byzantine Catholic existed and there will be long into the future. You can define me out of existence if you wish but it is only in your mind. Why don’t you focus on your directed retreat and let those of us enjoy our fantasy?

CDL
 
“Orthodox in communion with Rome” is an oxymoron, just like someone claiming to be an atheist who believes in God.

One of the main tenents of Othodoxy today is not being in communion with Rome just as one of the main tenents of atheism is not believeing in God.

Added to that the fact that as Catholics we believe things that that the Orthodox do not.
I can see how that seems like an oxymoron and at times, I think it does. But when you look at it as meaning that all Catholics are Orthodox, in the sense that we believe we are the Universal Orthodox Church. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t Catholic. Then it sounds redundant. haha. But, I do see your point.

Alaha minokhoun!
Andrew
 
Well that why I don’t see why all the hub bub if they are One then does it not go that what come from one also comes from the other.🤷 Just a thought.
It doesn’t follow. The Holy Spirit is one essence with the Father and the Son. By the logic you are using the Spirit would proceed from Himself as well and the Son would be begotten by the Spirit but that is not the case.

The procession of the Spirit is not an act of the one essence of God, it is an act of the person of the Father. So the fact that the Father and Son are one essence is irrelevant because it is the person of the Father which is the foundation of the Trinity, not the one essence. The Father begets the Son and Spirates the Spirit.
 
If “Orthodox in communion with Rome” is false then so is the idea that we are actually eastern. We just become Latins who have retained a few eastern concepts in order to lure the Eastern ‘heretics’ into the fold under the authority of the pope. Our theology is manipulated and determined by Rome. Consequently the whole idea of a Greek Catholic is vanity. We are just playing dress up. We might as well all insert the filioque into the creed and use the Latin liturgy.
 
If “Orthodox in communion with Rome” is false then so is the idea that we are actually eastern. We just become Latins who have retained a few eastern concepts in order to lure the Eastern ‘heretics’ into the fold under the authority of the pope. Our theology is manipulated and determined by Rome. Consequently the whole idea of a Greek Catholic is vanity. We are just playing dress up. We might as well all insert the filioque into the creed and use the Latin liturgy.
The problem that some people have with the expression “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” stems from the fact that much of what is identified as “Orthodox” today has no place in the Catholic Communion. There are definitely views that are prevalent within the Eastern Orthodox Communion, including aspects of self-identity, that no Eastern Catholic can subscribe to and remain Catholic.

That being said, I personally don’t have a problem with the expression, but only because I don’t understand “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” as being equivalent to “what the Eastern Orthodox consider Orthodox, in Communion with Rome”. That would indeed be an oxymoron, because much of what Eastern Catholics affirm by the very existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches contradicts the position of many, if not most, leading Eastern Orthodox. As I’ve said before, the very fact that “in Communion with Rome” is added indicates that there is a clear difference between Eastern Orthodox (in general) and Eastern Catholics that goes beyond merely recognizing the Pope in the Divine Liturgy; we are something other than Eastern Orthodox, and that does not mean we are something lesser, or that we are polluted by Latinizations. Our whole understanding of the West, and of Apostolic Communion, must be different in order for us to exist at all.

This doesn’t amount to Latinization, nor does it indicate a betrayal of the “true Eastern identity”. As Sayedna Cyril Bustros said in his review of Sayedna Elias Zoghby’s work “Are We All Schismatics?”
We support the position of His Excellency and we deduce from it that the Greek Orthodox, because of their refusal of communion with Rome, – regardless of the reasons for this refusal – do not represent the Eastern tradition but partially; because the complete Eastern tradition requires absolutely the communion with Rome, although in a special way as it was in the first millennium. On the other hand, the Greek Catholics, by keeping their union with the see of Rome, have kept a fundamental principle of Eastern tradition, especially the Antiochian tradition. However this principle has been exposed in its application to different things which deformed it, so that communion almost became absorption. Therefore, the Greek Catholics also do not represent the Eastern tradition but partially. Consequently, we can affirm that neither the Greek Orthodox nor the Greek Catholic represent fully the Eastern tradition, although both churches have kept it partially.
To be Eastern Catholic means to be called to be something more than Eastern Orthodox, and something more than Latin Catholics with different prayers and decorations. It means reclaiming aspects of our traditions that have been buried both by Latinizations, and by the gradual drift of Eastern Orthodoxy away from the centering nature of a full Apostolic Communion (this is to say nothing of the negative effects this same problem has had on the Latin Church; that is a discussion for another thread, and possibly another forum). The minute we simply accept either imposition as “our own”, we lose ourselves and what it means to be Orthodox AND what it means to be Catholic.

It is not merely by ignoring authentic, Apostolic Eastern traditions that we fail ourselves and our traditions, we also fail when we cease being a moderating voice between our Apostolic brothers and sisters on both sides of the divide. If we don’t love and respect both the West and the East as our own “flesh and blood”, then we really have no business calling ourselves Christians, let alone “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” or “Eastern Catholics”.

Finally, we need to stop bringing our own understanding of terms to the discussion and putting them in the mouths of others. If “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” offends (or denying it does likewise), then let’s discuss why that’s the case, and what that expression means to us, before we get in heated arguments over something that may not even be an issue at all. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
It doesn’t follow. The Holy Spirit is one essence with the Father and the Son. By the logic you are using the Spirit would proceed from Himself as well and the Son would be begotten by the Spirit but that is not the case.

The procession of the Spirit is not an act of the one essence of God, it is an act of the person of the Father. So the fact that the Father and Son are one essence is irrelevant because it is the person of the Father which is the foundation of the Trinity, not the one essence. The Father begets the Son and Spirates the Spirit.
oneGODoneCHURCH’s argument is, I would say, faulty; but I would point out that that necessarily doesn’t mean his conclusion (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son) is wrong.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH’s argument is, I would say, faulty; but I would point out that that necessarily doesn’t mean his conclusion (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son) is wrong.
The conclusion might be right but the logic is false.

Ghosty, I don’t think that I would disagree with anything you said.
 
If you want to quote scripture then you must remember that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, not from the Son according to scripture. There is not one instance in all of scripture where it says the Spirit proceeds from the Son.
Other biblical texts support it without mentioning “proceed”. We can begin with John 10:30 & 31.

If the Father and the Son are one as the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father (John 10:30&38), it is correct to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son not separately but in their oneness. That oneness cannot be divided so the procession of the HS necessarily comes from that oneness–of the Father and the Son. We cannot say that the “Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father without the Son” without losing orthodoxy.

In this verse: “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. ” (John 15:26 - New King James Bible), Jesus probably did not add “and Me” because he already mentioned earlier that he is the Truth (John 14:6). If Jesus is the Truth then the HS is His Spirit–the Spirit of Truth. In John 15:26, Jesus is trying to say that the Counselor (Helper) is also the Spirit of Truth (Jesus is the Truth) that proceeds from the Father making the HS also the Spirit of the Father as that can be read in Matthew 10:20.

Finally in John 20:22, the Holy Spirit clearly proceeds from the Son–"…And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, the Father and the Son are the one inseparable principle of the Holy Spirit, He (HS) being the Spirit of both the Father and the Son.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top