Eastern Catholics,the Orthodox and the Holy Bible

[Nine_Two]

Hi, so how do the Orthodox view Anglicans and their orders? I know a Russian Orthodox guy at school (he’s pretty much one of the only people at school I actually agree with on religious matters) and frankly he refuses to enter a protestant church and is disgusted by recent changes in the Anglican church (women priests, same sex "marriages etc…), is this similar to the general or official stance of the Orthodox towards Anglicans and other protestants?

Depends. I don’t know of any Orthodox not disgusted by the recent changes in the Anglican Church. Some might be more reluctant than others to enter Protestant churches, depending on their own past experiences and what the church is.

Officially it seems to mostly be a “no comment” on any orders outside the Orthodox communion (including the Catholic Church). In reality there isn’t much of a distinction seen between Catholic and Anglican orders.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Depends. I don’t know of any Orthodox not disgusted by the recent changes in the Anglican Church. Some might be more reluctant than others to enter Protestant churches, depending on their own past experiences and what the church is.

Officially it seems to mostly be a “no comment” on any orders outside the Orthodox communion (including the Catholic Church). In reality there isn’t much of a distinction seen between Catholic and Anglican orders.

Ok, so do the Orthodox believe in Apostolic Descent in Holy Orders. Also if you don’t mind me asking, are you Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox?

 

[Nine_Two]

Ok, so do the Orthodox believe in Apostolic Descent in Holy Orders. Also if you don’t mind me asking, are you Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox?

Eastern Orthodox. OCA specifically.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Eastern Orthodox. OCA specifically.

This is slightly off topic, but remember my Russian Orthodox friend I mentioned in an earlier post? Here in Newfoundland we have no Orthodox Churches, chaples or even priests. My friend was wondering if he could attend a Catholic Mass and recieve the Sacraments (like confessions) from a Catholic priest. He said that they only have a Divine Liturgy here once in a while when an Orthodox priest comes in from the mainland which is like once a year.

 

[searn77]

This is slightly off topic, but remember my Russian Orthodox friend I mentioned in an earlier post? Here in Newfoundland we have no Orthodox Churches, chaples or even priests. My friend was wondering if he could attend a Catholic Mass and recieve the Sacraments (like confessions) from a Catholic priest. He said that they only have a Divine Liturgy here once in a while when an Orthodox priest comes in from the mainland which is like once a year.

The Catholic Church allows Orthodox to receive Catholic sacraments, but the Orthodox Church doesn’t allow Orthodox to receive the Catholic sacraments. If an Orthodox would receive the sacraments from a Catholic church, he would be excommunicated from the Orthodox Church.

 

[Nine_Two]

This is slightly off topic, but remember my Russian Orthodox friend I mentioned in an earlier post? Here in Newfoundland we have no Orthodox Churches, chaples or even priests. My friend was wondering if he could attend a Catholic Mass and recieve the Sacraments (like confessions) from a Catholic priest. He said that they only have a Divine Liturgy here once in a while when an Orthodox priest comes in from the mainland which is like once a year.

I’m not really qualified to answer that, although everything I do know would say the answer is no. Still, a bishop or priest is the one who can best answer. Hopefully we’ll see enough growth in Newfoundland to allow a perminant priest over there. I know there is at least one mission (which is what he’s obviously aware of).

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

The Catholic Church allows Orthodox to receive Catholic sacraments, but the Orthodox Church doesn’t allow Orthodox to receive the Catholic sacraments. If an Orthodox would receive the sacraments from a Catholic church, he would be excommunicated from the Orthodox Church.

Ok thanks for telling me, I’m going to see him tomorrow and I’m sure he will be happy to know especially before Sunday.

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

I’m not really qualified to answer that, although everything I do know would say the answer is no. Still, a bishop or priest is the one who can best answer. Hopefully we’ll see enough growth in Newfoundland to allow a perminant priest over there. I know there is at least one mission (which is what he’s obviously aware of).

Really there is an Orthodox Mission in Newfoundland, do they have a website?

 

[Vico]

I suppose it depend on which Eastern Catholic Church you belong to. Things seem to be a little more fluid among the Melkites, for instance, than the Ruthenians. I don’t know about the Ukrainians, but I get the impression that they too are a little more fluid and less rigid than the Ruthenians. I also couldn’t imagine Bishop John Michael of the Romanians allowing things to become too rigid; so I’d venture to say that the Romanians probably also do not have one translation of Scripture to which they are all bound (although if they did I’d imagine Bishop John Michael would prefer the Raya/deVink translations of the Evangelion and Apostolos).

I looked at our Byzantine Gospel and Epistle books that we use in the Divine Liturgy, recently. They are both from 1979, which is the New American Bible (NAB) first published in 1970. The source of the New American Bible is the Nestle-Aland NT and Masoretic OT. The Orthodox Study Bible uses NKJV NT (Textus Receptus) and the LXX (Greek) OT.

 

[Nine_Two]

Really there is an Orthodox Mission in Newfoundland, do they have a website?

I have no idea, I just heard about it from a priest (who happens to be from Newfoundland) a few weeks ago.

But if he has a priest coming roughly once a year, my bet is that he is already connected with the mission. Missions, at least in the OCA, don’t have regular clergy but rely on visiting clergy. Only once they grow large enough do they tend to get permanent clergy.

 

[Aramis]

This is slightly off topic, but remember my Russian Orthodox friend I mentioned in an earlier post? Here in Newfoundland we have no Orthodox Churches, chaples or even priests. My friend was wondering if he could attend a Catholic Mass and recieve the Sacraments (like confessions) from a Catholic priest. He said that they only have a Divine Liturgy here once in a while when an Orthodox priest comes in from the mainland which is like once a year.

Yes, he can. His Orthodox pastor might excommunicate him for doing so, but if he approaches of his own free will, cannon 844 applies:

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

§4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.

§5. For the cases mentioned in §§2, 3, and 4, the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops is not to issue general norms except after consultation at least with the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2T.HTM

Note §3… specifically, this applies to the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East, Polish National Catholic Church.

 

[Nine_Two]

Yes, he can. His Orthodox pastor might excommunicate him for doing so, but if he approaches of his own free will, cannon 844 applies:

Will, not might. Besides, the Catholic Canon is a catch-22, since accepting the Eucharist outside of ones communion IS indifference. Particularly when ones own Church preaches against it.

 

[Aramis]

Will, not might. Besides, the Catholic Canon is a catch-22, since accepting the Eucharist outside of ones communion IS indifference. Particularly when ones own Church preaches against it.

Might. I’ve known Orthodox told to go to a Catholic parish while Travelling or when stuck where there is no canonical Orthodox parishes.

Further,the Antiochian Orthodox, in the mid-east, are unlikely to do so if it was a Melkite parish.

The Ukrainian Orthodox are unlikely to, but the EO don’t generally accept the KP as Orthodox.

It’s not as cut and dried as you’re claiming. Lots of polemicists claim the Orthodox don’t commune Catholics… but I’ve been told on more than one occasion that I am “Orthodox enough” to be admitted to communion by OCA priests. I’ve been communed in rural Alaskan OCA parishes, by priests who knew I was Catholic.

And, if he’s where there is no Orthodox presence, it’s unlikely to matter.

 

[Nine_Two]

Might. I’ve known Orthodox told to go to a Catholic parish while Travelling or when stuck where there is no canonical Orthodox parishes.

Further,the Antiochian Orthodox, in the mid-east, are unlikely to do so if it was a Melkite parish.

The Ukrainian Orthodox are unlikely to, but the EO don’t generally accept the KP as Orthodox.

It’s not as cut and dried as you’re claiming. Lots of polemicists claim the Orthodox don’t commune Catholics… but I’ve been told on more than one occasion that I am “Orthodox enough” to be admitted to communion by OCA priests. I’ve been communed in rural Alaskan OCA parishes, by priests who knew I was Catholic.

I’m not sure what the KP has to do with anything, but you’re right, my statement is only in regard to regulations. Some priests do ignore rules, but that’s between them, their bishop, and God. Regulations, in the OCA, however, say that non-Orthodox are not to be communed. What is done in the middle-east is the business of those living under those conditions. The entire point of my post was that the individual in question should be checking with those who are in places to give spiritual guidance.

And, if he’s where there is no Orthodox presence, it’s unlikely to matter.

This seems to sum up that sin of “indifference” that the Canons you quoted speak against quite well.

 

[Aramis]

I’m not sure what the KP has to do with anything, but you’re right, my statement is only in regard to regulations. Some priests do ignore rules, but that’s between them, their bishop, and God. Regulations, in the OCA, however, say that non-Orthodox are not to be communed. What is done in the middle-east is the business of those living under those conditions. The entire point of my post was that the individual in question should be checking with those who are in places to give spiritual guidance.

This seems to sum up that sin of “indifference” that the Canons you quoted speak against quite well.

The Ukrainian Orthodox have a good deal to do with Orthodoxy in general. The OCA communes UO-KP as being Orthodox, at least in practice.

The line between economia and indifference is all in motivation, not in execution.

Also, the OCA leaves the determination of who is an Orthodox Christian to the pastor.

 

[Nine_Two]

The Ukrainian Orthodox have a good deal to do with Orthodoxy in general. The OCA communes UO-KP as being Orthodox, at least in practice.

First, we’re discussing inter-communion between Orthodox and Catholics, not the KP and other Orthodox. Second off, what is your source for this? The same priest who has communed you, or do you have evidence to show the practice is widespread?

The line between economia and indifference is all in motivation, not in execution.

You’re right, but economy is granted by a bishop, not a priest, and the general gist I get from Catholics is that “we’re all the same”, that’s indifference. Your own claim that you’re seen as “Orthodox enough” by this priest is once again, indifference.

Also, the OCA leaves the determination of who is an Orthodox Christian to the pastor.

I can’t find anything on the OCA site that shows this, in fact I found something that seems to indicate otherwise (though I admit it doesn’t outright say it). You’re going to have to give me a source on a claim like that.
The OCA certainly gives the pastor a great deal of discretion, but I’ve never heard of anything like that, otherwise catechumens would be regularly communed. By the time I was accepted as a catechumen (after attending my parish for over a year), I was certainly “Orthodox enough”.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Actually, the point of the Anglican mass as devised by Cranmer and his reformers was to destroy belief in aspects of Faith such as the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Remember the parable of Christ regarding how a bad tree cannot bear good fruit? I dear say that Cranmer was not a good tree by any means! Even then, Anglican orders (unlike Catholic and Orthodox) are invalid and have been since at least the reign of Edward VI, making Transubstantiation impossible rendering the mass invalid. The Tridentine Mass and Divine Liturgy are completely different as they are the organic transformation of the Mass since the Last Supper and this tradition can be traced back to prove this, as any alterations made have been minor and thus the traditions of both rites preserved. Also we have valid Holy Orders which means the Masses or Divine Liturgys said by our priests and clergy are valid. Novus Ordo is a breach in Tradition of the Liturgy as Pope Benedict XVI has admitted however it has been approved by an Apostolic Authority which is the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, and thus when said by a priest with a valid ordination is thus a valid Mass.

Totally OT, but Crmaner denied Transubstation even to his Last Breath—as he was being Burned to Death for Heresy By Queen Mary.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I looked at our Byzantine Gospel and Epistle books that we use in the Divine Liturgy, recently. They are both from 1979, which is the New American Bible (NAB) first published in 1970. The source of the New American Bible is the Nestle-Aland NT and Masoretic OT. The Orthodox Study Bible uses NKJV NT (Textus Receptus) and the LXX (Greek) OT.

I can vouch for the “fluidity” part of the Melkite Church. I’ve been a Melkite for a little over a year and I STILL cannt understand all of the Official Positions taken by the Clergy and Patriarch Gregory.

That is nothing to laugh about, to be sure. but I grow in my Knowledge of the Faith every Day.

 

[Aramis]

The OCA certainly gives the pastor a great deal of discretion, but I’ve never heard of anything like that, otherwise catechumens would be regularly communed. By the time I was accepted as a catechumen (after attending my parish for over a year), I was certainly “Orthodox enough”.

His Grace Nikolai, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska, ca 2004, personal conversation. Pastors in RO parishes in Alaska from 1986-2006.

I am reasonably certain his pro-Catholic views are a significant part of his issues with certain priests, and his forced retirement.

I am aware of several Catholics having been accepted into the OCA in Alaska by profession alone (HE. accepting their baptism and confirmation as valid. Especially in the bush communities.)

 

[Nine_Two]

His Grace Nikolai, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska, ca 2004, personal conversation. Pastors in RO parishes in Alaska from 1986-2006.

I am reasonably certain his pro-Catholic views are a significant part of his issues with certain priests, and his forced retirement.

I am aware of several Catholics having been accepted into the OCA in Alaska by profession alone (HE. accepting their baptism and confirmation as valid. Especially in the bush communities.)

So when you say “OCA” you mean one particular diocese? I know out Bishop allowed communion to Oriental Orthodox, and allowed parishoners communion with them, but that can hardly be claimed to be OCA policy.

Regardless Newfoundland would not fall under Alaska, I would venture to guess the mother parish is Canadian (since Newfoundland itself has not been relegated to a diocese, but is cut off from all other diocese except Canada), and would fall under the Archdiocese of Canada.
As such the economy granted by a retired bishop in Alaska (which you seem to indicate may have played a role in his retirement, and thus was likely rescinded, although I only make assumptions based on information you provided) is not a valid basis for an answer to someone from Newfoundland, especially when you admit the case you make is controversial, and not an OCA wide norm.