Eastern Catholics Uncomfortable with De-Latinization

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David_B

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I know there has been a push for quite a few years now for Eastern Catholics to take back their traditions and heritage and to discard most of the Latinizations that were forced on it to
“fit in” with the US Latin Rite. Is there any resistance among Eastern Catholics to ditch Western devotions like Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Stations of the Cross, and the Rosary?
 
David B:
I know there has been a push for quite a few years now for Eastern Catholics to take back their traditions and heritage and to discard most of the Latinizations that were forced on it to
“fit in” with the US Latin Rite. Is there any resistance among Eastern Catholics to ditch Western devotions like Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Stations of the Cross, and the Rosary?
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Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament in our Byzantine Parish is actually an Akathist.

An Akathist (or Standing Prayer) that we use is An Akathist to the Most Holy Eucharist. We found a version online and pray this every Monday. Afterwards, our pastor let us sit in prayer (much like Eucharistic Adoration) for an hour.

This ISN’T a Latinization, but an Eastern Catholic prayer service.

As for other Re-Latinizations, our Pastor has restored everything in our parish except ONE thing…Pews. Our Pastor says that pews are actually a creation of the Protestant Reformation. I’m waiting for the day when we have No Pews!
 
David B:
I know there has been a push for quite a few years now for Eastern Catholics to take back their traditions and heritage and to discard most of the Latinizations that were forced on it to
“fit in” with the US Latin Rite. Is there any resistance among Eastern Catholics to ditch Western devotions like Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, Stations of the Cross, and the Rosary?
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Among the older generation there is some resistance as these people grew up with the latinizations so our attempts at removing them bothers them because this is what they know.

The move to remove the latinizations must be done in a pastoral manner and will take time. Some parishs it will take more time than others.

It is easiest to remove latinizations when you have something to replace them with, like the Stations of the Cross. In the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic Church this is replaced with Presanctified Liturgy, which is done on Wednesdays and Fridays during Great Lent. In the Melkite Church they do the Akathist to the Holy Mother of God on Fridays during Great Lent.

The biggest thing is Saturday night Vigil service. In our tradition it should be Great Vespers. This counts in fulfilling our “obligation” even though the Eucharist is not part of it. Many of our people do not like this. It is a change that must be gotten used to. One way to move to it is instead of having a standard Divine Liturgy on Saturday evenings is to do a Vesperal Liturgy and then when they are comfortable with it to change to Great Vespers.

That being said, the “de-latinization” process needs to be accompanied with teaching.

And lastly, to pick at a nit, this thread should not be in this section as we are Catholics.
 
In some Eastern Catholic churches there is great opposition to De-latinization.It is being pushed from the top down so to speak.
Rome feels that it is righting a great wrong. While some Eastern Catholics think their being robbed of precious traditions.
In relation to the Orthodox. They are upset because part of De-latinization is more authority for the Eastern church, to make its own decisions.
So Rome cannot impose its will on the Eastern churches like it use to.Also many Orthodox churches refuse to talk to Eastern Catholics.So that complicates relations a lot.
 
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JOHNYJ:
In some Eastern Catholic churches there is great opposition to De-latinization.It is being pushed from the top down so to speak.
Rome feels that it is righting a great wrong. While some Eastern Catholics think their being robbed of precious traditions.
In relation to the Orthodox. They are upset because part of De-latinization is more authority for the Eastern church, to make its own decisions.
So Rome cannot impose its will on the Eastern churches like it use to.Also many Orthodox churches refuse to talk to Eastern Catholics.So that complicates relations a lot.
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If I were an Eastern Catholic under the authority of Rome I too would be uncomfortable in de-latinization. Personally, the Eastern Catholics under Rome should keep their latin traditions. And only if they are reunited again with their Mother church of the East should they be expected to adopt their ancient traditions.

StMarkEofE
 
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StMarkEofE:
If I were an Eastern Catholic under the authority of Rome I too would be uncomfortable in de-latinization. Personally, the Eastern Catholics under Rome should keep their latin traditions. And only if they are reunited again with their Mother church of the East should they be expected to adopt their ancient traditions.

StMarkEofE
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Why should we keep latinizations that have no place within our traditions.

We need to remove the latinizations but they need to be removed pastorally.
 
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StMarkEofE:
If I were an Eastern Catholic under the authority of Rome I too would be uncomfortable in de-latinization. Personally, the Eastern Catholics under Rome should keep their latin traditions. And only if they are reunited again with their Mother church of the East should they be expected to adopt their ancient traditions.
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The Traditions of East and West used to co-exist side by side in relative peace and unity. And so Catholicism consists of both East and West. De-latinization of the Eastern Catholic Church is being embraced where I live, especially by the younger generation(as indicated by ByzCath). Again, as I have stated before, East and West united and adhering to their own unique Traditions is a wonderful asset of Catholicism. It is unfortunate that so many Orthodox continue to feel threatened by the Eastern Catholics. I think it’s time to set aside all earthly cares and love thy neighbor!
:yup:
 
I just realised that if a heathen or non-religious person stumbled across these forums he’d go nuts… That said I think that its good in many aspects that the Eastern Churches are returning to their Ancient and Venerable traditions. However, it does seem unfair to the poor Byzantince Catholic woman in her Parish who wouldn’t be allowed to pray the Rosary or whatever. Still it will help diversity in the Church. And we can once again claim truly, “unity in diversity.”
 
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twiztedseraph:
I just realised that if a heathen or non-religious person stumbled across these forums he’d go nuts… That said I think that its good in many aspects that the Eastern Churches are returning to their Ancient and Venerable traditions. However, it does seem unfair to the poor Byzantince Catholic woman in her Parish who wouldn’t be allowed to pray the Rosary or whatever. Still it will help diversity in the Church. And we can once again claim truly, “unity in diversity.”
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The Rosary…in the East we have the Jesus Prayer being prayed on Chotkis. And there IS a Byzantine Rosary using Byzantine Prayers.
angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Rosary.htm
I have used this version, although it can be rather lengthy, it is great when you use Our prayers.

I had talked to my paster, and I asked him about those in the West who prayer to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I asked him is it ok for an Eastern Catholic to pray to the ‘hearts’.
My pastor said that we in the East ‘Do not pray TO body parts. We pray to Jesus in the whole and the Theotokos in the whole as well.’

I am grateful to return to the Byzantine Rite when I did…I have experenced both the Eastern and the Western now…each can provide the other a richness that HAS TO BE shared with the rest of humanity. :cool:
 
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Edwin1961:
The Rosary…in the East we have the Jesus Prayer being prayed on Chotkis. And there IS a Byzantine Rosary using Byzantine Prayers.
angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Rosary.htm
I have used this version, although it can be rather lengthy, it is great when you use Our prayers.

I had talked to my paster, and I asked him about those in the West who prayer to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I asked him is it ok for an Eastern Catholic to pray to the ‘hearts’.
My pastor said that we in the East ‘Do not pray TO body parts. We pray to Jesus in the whole and the Theotokos in the whole as well.’

I am grateful to return to the Byzantine Rite when I did…I have experenced both the Eastern and the Western now…each can provide the other a richness that HAS TO BE shared with the rest of humanity. :cool:
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Your pastor is a very, very ignorant man. And blasphemous as well. Neither do I pray to body parts. If I say Christ is the heart of the Church do you then envision pumping ventricles, veins and arteries? Muscles and blood? Ridiculous.Your pastor needs some regrooving in a theological school somewhere. Or you do.
 
I had talked to my paster, and I asked him about those in the West who prayer to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I asked him is it ok for an Eastern Catholic to pray to the ‘hearts’.
My pastor said that we in the East 'Do not pray TO body parts. We pray to Jesus in the whole and the Theotokos in the whole as well.’
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I am grateful to return to the Byzantine Rite when I did…I have experenced both the Eastern and the Western now…each can provide the other a richness that HAS TO BE shared with the rest of humanity.
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What are you, protestant? Just kidding, nah we pray to their hearts as the heart is a symbol of the soul, of the inner being of the person. Thus we are praying to the innermost part of Jesus and Mary. I know what you mean, but if it was wrong or reprehensible do you think a Church that goes on to specify what colour vestments should be, that confessions should take place in the box, would allow it? Please, use logic, we’re scrupulous when it comes to doctrine! I am very happy for you returning to the Byzantine Rite, its a wonderful tradition.

And to reiterate my little disclaimer: I try to be blunt but not rude. I apologise in advance for any offense I have caused.
 
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stillsearching:
Your pastor is a very, very ignorant man. And blasphemous as well. Neither do I pray to body parts. If I say Christ is the heart of the Church do you then envision pumping ventricles, veins and arteries? Muscles and blood? Ridiculous.Your pastor needs some regrooving in a theological school somewhere. Or you do.
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I have YET to hear ANY stance from the Eastern Catholic Church about the praying to the Sacred Heart of Jesus or the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which is a part of the Latin tradition.
Why is it that these are SO important? Then where is it in Latin Rite teaching that praying to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary is Dogma and Has to be prayed to? (And since Eastern Catholic are in communion with Rome, then maybe this would be a part of our tradition, but until then, it is not).
From my understanding these devotions come from appriations and those are NOT require to be believed by those the Latin Rite. But for those who want to, they are approved.

I respect your devotion to the ‘hearts’ but don’t slight those who’s tradition does not recommend these devotions as a way to be Christ’s Catholic Church.
 
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twiztedseraph:
I just realised that if a heathen or non-religious person stumbled across these forums he’d go nuts… That said I think that its good in many aspects that the Eastern Churches are returning to their Ancient and Venerable traditions. However, it does seem unfair to the poor Byzantince Catholic woman in her Parish who wouldn’t be allowed to pray the Rosary or whatever. Still it will help diversity in the Church. And we can once again claim truly, “unity in diversity.”
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The Rosary is a private devotion. No one is limited in what private devotions they do.

When a devotion is done in Church and it suplants a traditional service, then it should be removed.

We should not be praying the Rosary before the Divine Liturgy. If they wish to have a prayer service before the Divine Liturgy then they should do Matins/Orthos which is the proper service following tradition.
 
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twiztedseraph:
However, it does seem unfair to the poor Byzantince Catholic woman in her Parish who wouldn’t be allowed to pray the Rosary or whatever. Still it will help diversity in the Church. And we can once again claim truly, “unity in diversity.”
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Byzantine’s can pray the rosary any time they want outside of the normal liturgical round of services.

The problem with the rosary was that it displaced Orthros, bad idea. The Liturgy of the Hours is the prayer of the church, second only to the Divine Liturgy itself. Rosary is a para-liturgical sort-of private devotion. Even if we were discussing Latin rite parishes this would be a big mistake, in an Eastern church it is a travesty.

By the way, I have to wonder why this thread is in the non-Catholic section. This is definately a Catholic topic.
 
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Hesychios:
By the way, I have to wonder why this thread is in the non-Catholic section. This is definately a Catholic topic.
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I am not trying to be mean spirited here or anything but I believe that it ends up here because of the eastern (or byzantine) portion of our name, that is Byzantine (Eastern) Catholics.

Some think of us as that before being Catholics and many of those who do so are Byzantine Catholics themselves.
 
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ByzCath:
I am not trying to be mean spirited here or anything but I believe that it ends up here because of the eastern (or byzantine) portion of our name, that is Byzantine (Eastern) Catholics.

Some think of us as that before being Catholics and many of those who do so are Byzantine Catholics themselves.
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I think CA would be taking a great leap forward if they could name a Forum simply “The Eastern Church” instead of this Eastern and Oriental Orthodox label.

And take it out from under the non-Catholic umbrella. The Eastern churches are a special case vis a vis the Catholic Communion, recognizing that upfront would elevate the dialogue to a more appropriate plane I think.

Even better if they just dissolve this forum altogether and let these topics go into the regular categories where they will compell everyone to confront the eastern church issues with equal deference.

I dream too much.
 
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Hesychios:
I think CA would be taking a great leap forward if they could name a Forum simply “The Eastern Church” instead of this Eastern and Oriental Orthodox label.

And take it out from under the non-Catholic umbrella. The Eastern churches are a special case vis a vis the Catholic Communion, recognizing that upfront would elevate the dialogue to a more appropriate plane I think.

Even better if they just dissolve this forum altogether and let these topics go into the regular categories where they will compell everyone to confront the eastern church issues with equal deference.

I dream too much.
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I knew it! You are one of them!

I am a Byzantine Catholic and I do not think our discussions should be separate. Nor do I think we are Orthodox in Communion with Rome, so our topics should not necessarily be with them.
 
Michael,

Is that really you? I miss you terribly. Have you been following our plans for the Whiting meeting? Pray for us. How’s your journey going. I’m praying for you as well.

Carson Daniel Lauffer
 
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