Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic

[JohnChrysostom]

I would consider it more than sibling rivalry if my sibling did not welcome me at his/her table.

Jon

Welcome to my life.

 

[aloneinjax]

The evidence against the Protestant beliefs is astounding.
Both the East and the West Church trace their steps back to Christ.
Not one Protestant Church can trace an unbroken chain back.
And even though the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church have been in dispute
over relatively minor things for the most part, save and except the violence,
they both have hierarchy, Sacred Tradition, Majisterium and Sacred Scripture.
One has to wonder how long it takes before they begin to uncover the truth
as I have since I set sail on this journey. Every attempt to prove it wrong
always ends up being blown apart. Scott Hahn said that the Catholic Church
doesn’t need defending because it defends itself.

Cardinal Newman said something to the effect “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”.

Oh! I see it now. Thanks for nudging my brain. So you’ve been researching all of this for a while? Can’t the Catholic church trace way back to Peter?

Kathy

 

[grace_singh]

i have a question, if it’s ok.

i do know that there are many Churches which are, essentially (as far as i can see) basically Oriental or Eastern Orthodox in liturgy, devotional practices, and culture, but who are in communion with Rome, and hence Catholic.

these Catholics were generally brought into Catholicism from an already existing non-Catholic community, and examples include the Chaldean Catholic Church (from the Assyrian Chruch of the East), and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (from the Indian Orthodox Church).

do you see these groups playing a role in the unification between Orthodoxy and Catholcism?

and in countries where there are Orthodox and Eastern Catholics side by side, how do these two communities tend to get along? is there friendliness, or coolness? do they ever attend one another’s churches, or celebrate holy days together?

 

[aloneinjax]

i have a question, if it’s ok.

i do know that there are many Churches which are, essentially (as far as i can see) basically Oriental or Eastern Orthodox in liturgy, devotional practices, and culture, but who are in communion with Rome, and hence Catholic.

these Catholics were generally brought into Catholicism from an already existing non-Catholic community, and examples include the Chaldean Catholic Church (from the Assyrian Chruch of the East), and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (from the Indian Orthodox Church).

do you see these groups playing a role in the unification between Orthodoxy and Catholcism?

and in countries where there are Orthodox and Eastern Catholics side by side, how do these two communities tend to get along? is there friendliness, or coolness? do they ever attend one another’s churches, or celebrate holy days together?

Great question! I await to see the answers to your question. I was surprised to find that many Eastern Catholic churches are in communion with the Pope. I didn’t know that. I was assuming that Eastern Catholics were Orthodox. That is what I get for assuming. I have learned quite a bit in the past few days since we have been discussing this.

Very interesting that there are Eastern Catholics and Orthodox living side by side. How different can the churches be? And, if the Eastern Catholic churches are in communion with Rome, why don’t they just call themselves Roman Catholics?

Kathy

 

[KyivAndrew]

And, if the Eastern Catholic churches are in communion with Rome, why don’t they just call themselves Roman Catholics?

Kathy

Hi Kathy. Hmm… I sometimes avoid Orthodox/Catholic threads on this particular subforum, but Eastern Catholics are not Roman Catholic because we are not Latin rite as Roman Catholics are. There are other rites (i.e. Byzantine) in the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church other than the Latin, surprise, surprise (although we are encouraged not to use the word “rite” anymore but “Church”). Our histories are different too.

There are some 22 different autonomous Sui Iuris Eastern Catholic Churches, the largest of which numerically is probably the one I belong to: the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (worldwide perhaps 6 million I think) which suffered horrible persecution in the 20th Century in the Soviet Union. The late venerable Pope John Paul the Second spoke perfect Ukrainian and celebrated Ukrainian Divine Liturgy in the Vatican and during a trip to Ukraine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

ugcc.org.ua/index.php?L=2

We don’t have Mass, we have Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom) which we consider beautiful, especially when sung by the entire congregation. We may have an ikonostas (full of icons) “separating” the priest and altar from the faithful during Liturgy (the “mysticism and veneration of the East” perhaps). Our Holy Communion is bread and wine. And I guess our guys dress differently .

View attachment 7655

View attachment 7656

A Big Difference in ecclessiology with the Roman Catholics is that our priests keep the ancient tradition of being able to be married and become priests. Our clergy are allowed to be married before being called to the priesthood. This is totally different from the current discipline in the Roman Catholic Church, obviously. Clerical celibacy is not mandated in our Church; however, only celibate priests may become bishops, archbishops, metropolitans, or patriarchs. In Roman Catholicism, priestly celibacy is a discipline, not dogma.

Sorry, there is more, but I think the OP is about the Orthodox/Catholic split so not sure if my post is straying in this thread but I think that among Roman Catholics there is little-known of their Eastern Catholic brethren, sisters, and churches, even though we are fully Catholic as well, and this really saddens me. I would encourage you, if you are close to an Eastern Catholic Church (i.e. Ukrainian Catholic, Ruthenian, Romanian, etc.) to attend and see how you like it. I’m pretty sure the poster jam on this thread has some experience with the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church.

On relations between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox in the same country? Well, that brings up a whole different set of issues depending on the country and would probably send this thread in a different direction. It can be quite complex and may vary with which country one is dealing. Best left for another thread I would assume.

In any even, there is a whole subforum on CAF dedicated to “Eastern Catholicism” as one can see from the index. I’ve been here long enough to know Orthodox/Catholic dialogue or polemics takes place in this subforum.

Hope this helps. I probably missed something important but me mind is driftin’.

God Bless.

Andrew.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6535616:

Jon,

In what sense are you using the word “unity”? Do you have in mind cautiously worded statements that have been agreed by representatives of different faiths and are published for all to peruse and analyze (and argue over, naturally) or do you have in mind something else?

Curiously,
Mick

Hi Mick,
Lutherans often talk about altar and pulpit fellowship. Something more significant than caustiously worded statments, though they are a good start, and beat the devil out of hastily worded condemnations.

I can’t think of a stronger unity, Mick, than if you and I are welcome to receive the Eucharist at each other’s Church.

Jon

Hey Jon,

Let’s try to talk it through, then, and see if we make any progress.

I know your hope is that the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church will unite and (for you) that would be your prompt to the join the reunited Church. You would bring with you your Lutheran heritage, of course, since it’s part of who you are. I, on the other hand, have already made a move. I’ve moved from Evangelical Christianity into Orthodoxy and in the process rejected the Catholic Church. So if there were to be reunion, we would both be personally affected.

Let’s make some assumptions. Let’s assume that the Eastern Orthodox Church (including the Oriental Orthodox) and the Western Church (1 Western and 22 sui juris Eastern and Oriental Churches) have all agreed to be in communion with each other. Let’s call it an agreed statement of some sort (much better than condemnation, as you pointed out ) simply declaring a willingness to be in communion with each other, to step away from the polemics, to make the application the main focus, and to consider doctrinal differences only when they become evident.

What areas need to be examined and what adjustments (if any) need to be considered?

Let’s begin with the sign of the cross. OK, no problem. Let’s say that would be one of those areas where people can choose to do as they wish. They can continue as before or change to what they had previously described as “backward.” The same would apply to private devotions. Everyone can continue as before. Perhaps Orthodox Christians will like to add the prayer to the Archangel Michael to their prayer rule and Catholics will like to add the Jesus Prayer to theirs.

So we’re getting on like a house on fire, huh? .

Ah, but what about corporate worship? What difficulties might that present?

In Christ,
Mick

 

[wynd]

Based upon the fact that you felt the need to refute my comment I would say yes.

Can you explain? I “refuted” it because it’s not true. I don’t see what my birth religion has to do with it.

 

[aloneinjax]

Hi Kathy. Hmm… I sometimes avoid Orthodox/Catholic threads on this particular subforum, but Eastern Catholics are not Roman Catholic because we are not Latin rite as Roman Catholics are. There are other rites (i.e. Byzantine) in the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church other than the Latin, surprise, surprise (although we are encouraged not to use the word “rite” anymore but “Church”). Our histories are different too.

There are some 22 different autonomous Sui Iuris Eastern Catholic Churches, the largest of which numerically is probably the one I belong to: the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (worldwide perhaps 6 million I think) which suffered horrible persecution in the 20th Century in the Soviet Union. The late venerable Pope John Paul the Second spoke perfect Ukrainian and celebrated Ukrainian Divine Liturgy in the Vatican and during a trip to Ukraine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Greek_Catholic_Church

ugcc.org.ua/index.php?L=2

We don’t have Mass, we have Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom) which we consider beautiful, especially when sung by the entire congregation. We may have an ikonostas (full of icons) “separating” the priest and altar from the faithful during Liturgy (the “mysticism and veneration of the East” perhaps). Our Holy Communion is bread and wine. And I guess our guys dress differently .

View attachment 7655

View attachment 7656

A Big Difference in ecclessiology with the Roman Catholics is that our priests keep the ancient tradition of being able to be married and become priests. Our clergy are allowed to be married before being called to the priesthood. This is totally different from the current discipline in the Roman Catholic Church, obviously. Clerical celibacy is not mandated in our Church; however, only celibate priests may become bishops, archbishops, metropolitans, or patriarchs. In Roman Catholicism, priestly celibacy is a discipline, not dogma.

Sorry, there is more, but I think the OP is about the Orthodox/Catholic split so not sure if my post is straying in this thread but I think that among Roman Catholics there is little-known of their Eastern Catholic brethren, sisters, and churches, even though we are fully Catholic as well, and this really saddens me. I would encourage you, if you are close to an Eastern Catholic Church (i.e. Ukrainian Catholic, Ruthenian, Romanian, etc.) to attend and see how you like it. I’m pretty sure the poster jam on this thread has some experience with the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church.

On relations between Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox in the same country? Well, that brings up a whole different set of issues depending on the country and would probably send this thread in a different direction. It can be quite complex and may vary with which country one is dealing. Best left for another thread I would assume.

In any even, there is a whole subforum on CAF dedicated to “Eastern Catholicism” as one can see from the index. I’ve been here long enough to know Orthodox/Catholic dialogue or polemics takes place in this subforum.

Hope this helps. I probably missed something important but me mind is driftin’.

God Bless.

Andrew.

Thank you so much for all the info and the links. I find it very interesting.
Okay, now that you have mentioned the Latin Rite, I remember reading there are others. So, you don’t have Mass; it is Divine LIturgy.

LoL about your mind. I know that feeling well.

You sure know your religious history. Good for you!

Thanks again!

Kathy

 

[KyivAndrew]

You sure know your religious history. Good for you!

Thanks again!

Kathy

Well, I’m not really sure I know that much, but thanks. If you have any other questions about Ukrainian/Eastern Catholicism, feel free to ask.

Andrew

 

[SSTeacher]

grace_singh;6536233:

i have a question, if it’s ok.

i do know that there are many Churches which are, essentially (as far as i can see) basically Oriental or Eastern Orthodox in liturgy, devotional practices, and culture, but who are in communion with Rome, and hence Catholic.

these Catholics were generally brought into Catholicism from an already existing non-Catholic community, and examples include the Chaldean Catholic Church (from the Assyrian Chruch of the East), and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (from the Indian Orthodox Church).

do you see these groups playing a role in the unification between Orthodoxy and Catholcism?

and in countries where there are Orthodox and Eastern Catholics side by side, how do these two communities tend to get along? is there friendliness, or coolness? do they ever attend one another’s churches, or celebrate holy days together?

Great question! I await to see the answers to your question. I was surprised to find that many Eastern Catholic churches are in communion with the Pope. I didn’t know that. I was assuming that Eastern Catholics were Orthodox. That is what I get for assuming. I have learned quite a bit in the past few days since we have been discussing this.

Very interesting that there are Eastern Catholics and Orthodox living side by side. How different can the churches be? And, if the Eastern Catholic churches are in communion with Rome, why don’t they just call themselves Roman Catholics?

Kathy

Following on from Andrew’s helpful post and links if you proceed to the Eastern Catholicism forum and click on “Last” in order to get to the final page, you’ll find that the very last thread is a Reference Thread. It’s titled SOPHIA: Eastern & Oriental Catholic Rites & Churches – A Reference Thread. It contains eight lengthy posts followed by a final brief post containing two further links. You may find those links worth following (I’m assuming you haven’t already discovered them! ).

Cordially,
Mick

 

[JonNC]

=SSTeacher;6536569]Hey Jon,

Let’s try to talk it through, then, and see if we make any progress.

I know your hope is that the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church will unite and (for you) that would be your prompt to the join the reunited Church. You would bring with you your Lutheran heritage, of course, since it’s part of who you are. I, on the other hand, have already made a move. I’ve moved from Evangelical Christianity into Orthodoxy and in the process rejected the Catholic Church. So if there were to be reunion, we would both be personally affected.

Yes, we would. I have always said that if I were to swim the Tiber, I would forever give thanks to Lutheranism, for it is there that I received my swimming lessons.

Let’s make some assumptions. Let’s assume that the Eastern Orthodox Church (including the Oriental Orthodox) and the Western Church (1 Western and 22 sui juris Eastern and Oriental Churches) have all agreed to be in communion with each other. Let’s call it an agreed statement of some sort (much better than condemnation, as you pointed out ) simply declaring a willingness to be in communion with each other, to step away from the polemics, to make the application the main focus, and to consider doctrinal differences only when they become evident.

What areas need to be examined and what adjustments (if any) need to be considered?

Let’s begin with the sign of the cross. OK, no problem. Let’s say that would be one of those areas where people can choose to do as they wish. They can continue as before or change to what they had previously described as “backward.” The same would apply to private devotions. Everyone can continue as before. Perhaps Orthodox Christians will like to add the prayer to the Archangel Michael to their prayer rule and Catholics will like to add the Jesus Prayer to theirs.

So we’re getting on like a house on fire, huh? .

You know, Mick, I’m probably not knowledgably enough about Orthodox practices and piety, but it seems that there would be an acceptance of varying practices in liturgy, piety, and (small t) traditions, just like there are now within the Eastern and Latin Catholic Churches. Also evident in the invitation to Anglicans - Anglican use worship.

Ah, but what about corporate worship? What difficulties might that present?

Again, what difficulties arise between Eastern and Latin Catholics? The Lutheran Confessions respond to these kinds of questions by stating that traditions do not have to be the same everywhere. I would think the diversity would be a plus.

Jon

 

[jam070406]

Can you explain? I “refuted” it because it’s not true. I don’t see what my birth religion has to do with it.

It absolutely is true. I never said that there was no diversity of opinion. I never said there were black and white catagories as you attempted to paint my words out as saying.
Of course there are differing opinions!
But there most definitely have been ex-Catholics that over emphasis the differences and shun the similarities. Are these people the only voice of Orthodoxy? And I find it very telling that you, who like to emphasis the differences (which are much smaller then all we have in common) as you’ve stated, appear to be an ex-Catholic. Most, if not all, ex-Catholic, now Orthodox, tend to share your exact opinion. At least the ones I see post here. Other ex-Catholic, now Orthodox, that I’ve run into in other networking places have been even more nasty towards Catholics. Thank God your leaders don’t hold your opinion and see that we have much in common worth getting together and discussing the possibilty of Unity.

 

[aloneinjax]

Well, I’m not really sure I know that much, but thanks. If you have any other questions about Ukrainian/Eastern Catholicism, feel free to ask.

Andrew

I do want to know why they do not consider themselves Roman Catholic if they are in communion with Rome. Why am I not understanding this? LoL It takes me a while sometimes. I take it the Sign of The Cross and genuflecting are the same as in the Roman Catholic church? And…are the holidays the same? ie: Easter, Christmas

Thank you in advance!

Kathy

 

[grace_singh]

I do want to know why they do not consider themselves Roman Catholic if they are in communion with Rome. Why am I not understanding this? LoL It takes me a while sometimes. I take it the Sign of The Cross and genuflecting are the same as in the Roman Catholic church? And…are the holidays the same? ie: Easter, Christmas

Thank you in advance!

Kathy

i would assume because they are not Latin Rite, and don’t have the cultural similarity to the Church as found in Westrern Europe.

instead of Latin, they have traditionally used Greek, Arabic, Syriac, Malayalam, or a variety of other languages. and their liturgies, art work, culture, prayers, etc. are unique to their own region, and unlike those of Roman Catholics.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I do want to know why they do not consider themselves Roman Catholic if they are in communion with Rome. Why am I not understanding this? LoL It takes me a while sometimes. I take it the Sign of The Cross and genuflecting are the same as in the Roman Catholic church? And…are the holidays the same? ie: Easter, Christmas

Thank you in advance!

Kathy

As Jharek mentioned, because All Catholics are Not Roman Catholic. In the West especially, it is easy to assume that all catholics are Roman Catholic (Latin/Roman rite). But this is not true. There are many other Catholic Churches in communion with Rome but not Roman Catholic, such as my Ukrainian Catholic Church. I was thinking that my pointing out that we have married clergy would be enough to point to some difference between the Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics. Kathy, you know that your clergy are by discipline to be celibate; this is a discipline of the Roman Catholic Church, not the Ukrainian Catholic and other churches. Were we to become Roman Catholic, we would forfeit this ancient tradition.

Christmas? Well some Eastern Catholics do it at the same time as the Roman Catholics (Dec. 25) but others remain tied to the old tradition (as many Ukrainian Catholics do) and celebrate it by the old calendar on January 7th, as the Orthodox do. Easter fell on the same day this year.

Genuflection: we don’t kneel as Roman Catholics do before entering a pew; we bow reverently towards the altar whilst crossing ourselves.

Sign of cross: we do with 3 fingers (the Trinity) together right to left, whereas Roman Catholics the reverse, left to right.

Bottom line though, despite our different ecclesiology, practice, and culture (and different emphases in theology) is that, like Roman Catholics, the Pope is the Head of our Ukrainian Catholic (and Eastern Catholic) Churches. Same head; just different liturgy. Different culture and history than the Latin West. That’s why we are Catholics, but not Roman.

Does this make sense?

 

[wynd]

It absolutely is true. I never said that there was no diversity of opinion. I never said there were black and white catagories as you attempted to paint my words out as saying.
Of course there are differing opinions!
But there most definitely have been ex-Catholics that over emphasis the differences and shun the similarities. Are these people the only voice of Orthodoxy? And I find it very telling that you, who like to emphasis the differences (which are much smaller then all we have in common) as you’ve stated, appear to be an ex-Catholic. Most, if not all, ex-Catholic, now Orthodox, tend to share your exact opinion. At least the ones I see post here. Other ex-Catholic, now Orthodox, that I’ve run into in other networking places have been even more nasty towards Catholics. Thank God your leaders don’t hold your opinion and see that we have much in common worth getting together and discussing the possibilty of Unity.

I’m sorry you feel that way. Again, I take issue with your statement that “Most, if not all, ex-Catholic, now Orthodox, tend to share your exact opinion.” The most ecumenical Orthodox I’ve ever known (in real life) were former RCs.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Sorry just a correction to one of my posts above. People say don’t link to Wikipedia and at times they’re right as anyone can post info. on any wikipedia entry (ah, the beauty of the internet).

For the Ukrainian Catholic Church and its history this link is more succinct and correct than Wikipedia plus it probably explains better and more clear the historical situation of an Eastern Catholic Church in a nutshell and how it relates to Rome.

ugcc.org.ua/31.0.html?&L=2#c160

 

[jam070406]

I’m sorry you feel that way.

I’m sorry that’s the attitude presented.

Again, I take issue with your statement that “Most, if not all, ex-Catholic, now Orthodox, tend to share your exact opinion.”

Ok, I’m sorry you’re offended. Not sure why you’d be offended though because you yourself claimed you didn’t like it when people tried to put aside differences to share in what we have in common.

Btw, I noticed you left out the part I said about the ex-Catholics now Orthodox that post *on *here.

The most ecumenical Orthodox I’ve ever known (in real life) were former RCs.

I was referring to posters on CAF and other social networks that I’ve encountered. But that is interesting.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Thank God your leaders don’t hold your opinion and see that we have much in common worth getting together and discussing the possibilty of Unity.

How pretentious, you telling us what we and our leaders believe. Lets hear it straight from them.

**Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew **

In the distant past, great attempts have been made by both sides to prove, and motivated by a different spirit, each side has judged the other as being divergent from the true faith.

This deeply rooted conviction of our divergence has led us to a thousand years of separate and autonomous courses. We confirm not with unexpected astonishment, but neither with indifference, that indeed the divergence between us continually increases and the end point to which our courses are taking us, foreseeably, are indeed different. Our heart is opposed to the specter of an everlasting separation. Our heart requires that we seek again our common foundations, and the original starting point that we share. So that, retrospectively we can discover the point and the reasons for our divergence that led to separate courses, and be able, by lifting blame, to proceed thereafter on the same road leading to the same common goal.

Assuredly our problem is neither geographical nor one of personal alienation. Neither is it a problem of organizational structures, nor jurisdictional arrangements. Neither is it a problem of external submission, nor absorption of individuals and groups. It is something deeper and more substantive.

The manner in which we exist has become ontologically different. Unless our ontological transfiguration and transformation toward one common model of life is achieved, not only in form but also in substance, unity and its accompanying realization become impossible.

**Patriarch Kirill **

In speaking about relations between the Churches…“nevertheless, we have be accountable for a great number of differences in doctrine and practice between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches and, in this regard, there is no room for compromise.”

Metropolitan Hilarion (Department for external Church relations)

“But you should understand that we do not expect any rapprochement with the Catholics in the field of theology. We participate in the theological dialogue, but it seems to be difficult and long as there are many difficulties and riffs.”

Metropolitan Jonah (Orthodox Church in America)

“We share the hope of full ecumenical relationship and reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. However, I believe that we are of one mind, the Anglicans and the Orthodox, in that we reject the papal ecclesiology and the theological distortions of papal infallibility, and some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary. We love the Most Pure Mother of God, but I think we have to remember what is right and decent and in order. And it’s only by, only by the repeal of such doctrines that there is going to be any possibility of reconciliation of the Roman Church with the Orthodox Church.”

I think His All-Holiness put if perfectly. The way we exist is ontologically different. For some reason there seems to be a segment of Roman Catholics who either refuse or are incapable of seeing that.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[aloneinjax]

i would assume because they are not Latin Rite, and don’t have the cultural similarity to the Church as found in Westrern Europe.

instead of Latin, they have traditionally used Greek, Arabic, Syriac, Malayalam, or a variety of other languages. and their liturgies, art work, culture, prayers, etc. are unique to their own region, and unlike those of Roman Catholics.

Okay, I get the own prayer, per their region, aspect. But, they can be in with Rome even though they do not use the Latin Rite?