Eastern Orthodox Christians: Do you reject Catholic miracles and supernatural claims as false or lies?

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve always been fascinated by Catholic supernatural phenomenon and the miracles the Catholic Church embraces, etc. Things like Fatima, the miracles of Padre Pio, Lourdes, the Dolorous Passion visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich, and so many other miracles by saints, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, exorcisms like the famous St. Louis Exorcism that inspired the famous Exorcist film, etc.

If the Catholic Church were illegitimate, devoid of grace, and no longer an instrument of active and powerful salvation used by God since the Great Schism, wouldn’t it necessitate that Orthodox reject these powerful and awesome miracles?

This thread is directed mostly to Orthodox, though Catholics can and should chime in, to find out if Orthodox believe in these miracles, reject them as figments of Catholic imagination, or just claim they’re false altogether?

The poll is really for Orthodox only (Orthodox not in communion with Rome)

 

[josephdaniel29]

I’ve always been fascinated by Catholic supernatural phenomenon and the miracles the Catholic Church embraces, etc. Things like Fatima, the miracles of Padre Pio, Lourdes, the Dolorous Passion visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich, and so many other miracles by saints, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, exorcisms like the famous St. Louis Exorcism that inspired the famous Exorcist film, etc.

If the Catholic Church were illegitimate, devoid of grace, and no longer an instrument of active and powerful salvation used by God since the Great Schism, wouldn’t it necessitate that Orthodox reject these powerful and awesome miracles?

This thread is directed mostly to Orthodox, though Catholics can and should chime in, to find out if Orthodox believe in these miracles, reject them as figments of Catholic imagination, or just claim they’re false altogether?

The poll is really for Orthodox only (Orthodox not in communion with Rome)

Since this is not really a black or white issue I’m going to refrain from voting in the poll.

You certainly do have some unusual ideas my friend. Who said the Catholic Church was "devoid of grace’? Where God choses to bestow grace is up to Him. It is crystal clear that God desires the salvation of every single human being and that His grace is operative in those individuals. Also, I’m certainly in no position to judge miracles. God performs miracles when and where He choses irrespective of what I or anyone else thinks.

Now, on to your question. If you haven’t gotten a sense of the answer yet, I imagine some of them are real and some are false. As to which ones are which, I don’t have a clue.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It’s not “unusual ideas” at all, josephd. It’s apparent that you plead the fifth here and abstain because you don’t want to make the hard decision to lay it out. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Catholic Church is heterodox, schismatic, and many think Catholicism illegitimate and impotent where grace and sacraments are concerned. The popular Orthodox response is “heck if I know.” But I’d appreciate some refreshing honesty for once. Take a look at Padre Pio, for example, and the miraculous stigmata, reports of multi-location, healings, visions, and uncanny things that happened at confessions, etc. The man was a total miraculous work of God IMO. And he was a Catholic priest within the Catholic Church and is revered as a saint of the Catholic Church. What do you think? Not maybe, yes or no? Do you think he did these things?

From my vantage point, if the Catholic Church were a schismatic group and the Orthodox Church were the true Church unspoiled by heterodoxy and free of the taint of “papal errors” then why would God choose to bestow so many miracles within her walls? Why all the great visions, healings, miracles, and supernatural phenomenon? If the Catholic Church is schismatic and lost sheep, one would think God would choose to only make these things happen with the bounds of Orthodoxy and guide the lost Catholics eastward? Why the abundance of grace in Catholicism? The only answer would be it’s the work of the devil and his minions? Just hypotheticals. Without being wishy-washy, I’d like to know your real opinion on this instead of the safe response

Since this is not really a black or white issue I’m going to refrain from voting in the poll.

You certainly do have some unusual ideas my friend. Who said the Catholic Church was "devoid of grace’? Where God choses to bestow grace is up to Him. It is crystal clear that God desires the salvation of every single human being and that His grace is operative in those individuals. Also, I’m certainly in no position to judge miracles. God performs miracles when and where He choses irrespective of what I or anyone else thinks.

Now, on to your question. If you haven’t gotten a sense of the answer yet, I imagine some of them are real and some are false. As to which ones are which, I don’t have a clue.

 

[shaky]

It’s not “unusual ideas” at all, josephd. It’s apparent that you plead the fifth here and abstain because you don’t want to make the hard decision to lay it out. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Catholic Church is heterodox, schismatic, and many think Catholicism illegitimate and impotent where grace and sacraments are concerned. The popular Orthodox response is “heck if I know.” But I’d appreciate some refreshing honesty for once. Take a look at Padre Pio, for example, and the miraculous stigmata, reports of multi-location, healings, visions, and uncanny things that happened at confessions, etc. The man was a total miraculous work of God IMO. And he was a Catholic priest within the Catholic Church and is revered as a saint of the Catholic Church. What do you think? Not maybe, yes or no? Do you think he did these things?

From my vantage point, if the Catholic Church were a schismatic group and the Orthodox Church were the true Church unspoiled by heterodoxy and free of the taint of “papal errors” then why would God choose to bestow so many miracles within her walls? Why all the great visions, healings, miracles, and supernatural phenomenon? If the Catholic Church is schismatic and lost sheep, one would think God would choose to only make these things happen with the bounds of Orthodoxy and guide the lost Catholics eastward? Why the abundance of grace in Catholicism? The only answer would be it’s the work of the devil and his minions? Just hypotheticals. Without being wishy-washy, I’d like to know your real opinion on this instead of the safe response

Well i have seen plenty of videos on youtube with Orthodox priests casting out demons and i have heard of healing and saints from heaven visiting monks.
Also what about all the casting out demons healings holy-spirit baptism that are happening in abundance in the Pentecostal Movements.

What about many will say did we not cast demons out in your name, done many miracles in your name, done many works in your name. Then Jesus will say to them i never knew you who practise Inquity.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

As a Catholic I’m not going to vote. But I’m interested what do our EO brethren think about these 3 things:

1. Many Eucharistic miracles in the Catholic Church. Some, like Lanciano, happened in the 9th century before the Great Schism. Yet others, dozens of miracles, happened after that. Extremely well documented miracles.
2. The Marian apparition at Fatima, 1917, and specifically the order that the Pope, together with all Bishops, should consecrate Russia to Mary’s Immaculate Heart, thus saving and converting Russia. Why should the Pope consecrate, why not the Moscow Patriarch? Also, the request that all people (including laypeople) should make the 5 First Saturdays of Reparation to Mary’s Immaculate Heart, which is, together with the Papal consecration, part of the heavenly plan to save Russia. And the 5 First Saturdays are in order to console Mary for the offenses people commit against her, which are: 1. Offenses against her Immaculate Conception - this is something that our EO brethren reject, 2. - 5. Other offenses against her virginity, divine motherhood, against her sacred images etc, those are not relevant in this discussion since EO don’t offend her on those points, only our Protestant and atheistic brethren do.
3. The Marian apparitions at Soufanieh since 1982, still ongoing, to a Melkite Catholic housewife Myrna Nazzour, married to a Greek EO husband Nicolas Nazzour. Jesus Christ and Mary have been telling at Soufanieh (Damascus) that the Churches should unify the Feast (Pascha/Easter), as the first step of reunification of our Churches. Actually this thing did happen in 2002, because everyone there (Greek EO Bishop, Melkite Catholic Patriarch, Papal Nuncio, Syriac Patriarch, even the local Baptist Protestant pastor ) believes the apparitions, and the Melkite Patriarch came to an agreement in 2002 with all other Churches to celebrate the Feast on the EO day, since apparently EO are numerically in majority in Damascus. The Pope John Paul II happily approved. Dear EO brethren, should we all get fired up, and unify the Feast? I know for a fact that RC and EO Church representatives are in talks about this issue. They have been talking about it since several years, and Pope JP2 said, “Whatever you agree on, I will approve it”. I guess Pope B16 will take the same approach. Whatever the consultation between the EO (OO??) and Catholic Churches will agree on, Pope B16 will approve. I’m not sure why they couldn’t come to an agreement yet.

 

[thirddec]

I am a Catholic ( Roman )

but I wonder did the starter of this thread consider this ?
It would seem that miracles;prophesy and exorcism is no guarantee of anything?
Faith in Christ and a humble life led in prayer and service to him trying to love God and our neighbours would be where we should look to see the proper church.

Matthew 7

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

I would think it a fair question to ask our eastern brothers in Christ what their opinion is of these things but could we get a fair answer from them with such a loaded question?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Well i have seen plenty of videos on youtube with Orthodox priests casting out demons and i have heard of healing and saints from heaven visiting monks.
Also what about all the casting out demons healings holy-spirit baptism that are happening in abundance in the Pentecostal Movements.

What about many will say did we not cast demons out in your name, done many miracles in your name, done many works in your name. Then Jesus will say to them i never knew you who practise Inquity.

The Holy Fire, that’s a big one. I don’t doubt that it’s true. Too many eyewitness accounts for me to doubt it.

I know at least some EO brethren believe that the Holy Fire proves that the correct date for Pascha is the EO one, since this miracle only happens in the hands of the Greek EO Patriarch of Jerusalem, and with the gathered EO believers, on the EO day of Pascha.

I’m not going to lie about it, I as a Catholic would be very happy if some alternative explanation existed, not the one according to which “you Catholics are wrong, and we EO are right”.

But I would be really happy to celebrate Pascha on the same day with the EO Churches, even if that would mean celebrating it on the day when the miracle of Holy Fire traditionally happens in the church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

I will only refuse to admit that “you EO are right, and we Catholics are wrong”, and fish for some alternative explanation.

But that would be pretty cool, if we could celebrate on the same day.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

but I wonder did the starter of this thread consider this ?
It would seem that miracles;prophesy and exorcism is no guarantee of anything?

Here’s St. Ignatius Loyola’s take on it: unusual phenomena are either

1. of purely natural origin
2. supernatural, coming from God
3. supernatural, coming from the devil.

Thus, when EO posters suggested that Fatima (1917) must be coming from the devil, I realize the only alternative explanations were that this was either some natural phenomenon, or coming from God.

Excluding the suggestion I found on the orthodoxinfo.com website, that it could have been an UFO, we are down to 2 possibilities:

1. either Fatima came from the devil, and the Catholic Church has lost the ability to properly discern it, and the Popes look like fools, proclaiming that the apparition of Fatima is “worthy of belief”,

OR

1. Fatima is from God, and God truly put the Pope in charge of the universal Church and in charge of all people, including Russian people in Russia. Not the Moscow Patriarch, but the Pope. And, while our EO brethren reject the dogma of Immaculate Conception, we Catholics are commanded to pick up the slack and make reparation for their sin of offending Holy Mary, through their rejection of her Immaculate Conception.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Oops, regarding the Holy Fire, my alternative explanation is NOT going to be that it comes from the devil.

 

[josephdaniel29]

It’s not “unusual ideas” at all, josephd. It’s apparent that you plead the fifth here and abstain because you don’t want to make the hard decision to lay it out. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Catholic Church is heterodox, schismatic, and many think Catholicism illegitimate and impotent where grace and sacraments are concerned. The popular Orthodox response is “heck if I know.” But I’d appreciate some refreshing honesty for once. Take a look at Padre Pio, for example, and the miraculous stigmata, reports of multi-location, healings, visions, and uncanny things that happened at confessions, etc. The man was a total miraculous work of God IMO. And he was a Catholic priest within the Catholic Church and is revered as a saint of the Catholic Church. What do you think? Not maybe, yes or no? Do you think he did these things?

From my vantage point, if the Catholic Church were a schismatic group and the Orthodox Church were the true Church unspoiled by heterodoxy and free of the taint of “papal errors” then why would God choose to bestow so many miracles within her walls? Why all the great visions, healings, miracles, and supernatural phenomenon? If the Catholic Church is schismatic and lost sheep, one would think God would choose to only make these things happen with the bounds of Orthodoxy and guide the lost Catholics eastward? Why the abundance of grace in Catholicism? The only answer would be it’s the work of the devil and his minions? Just hypotheticals. Without being wishy-washy, I’d like to know your real opinion on this instead of the safe response

You say you don’t want the “safe answer.” I would think you would prefer the honest answer. How could I possibly know? You are asking me to speculate about things of which I have zero experience. I told you what I do know, that God loves and desires the salvation of every single human being and that He bestows grace when and where He chooses. That is enough for me…it should be enough for you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The starter most certainly did…but said starter would like to know the Orthodox position on these miracles, that’s all

I am a Catholic ( Roman )

but I wonder did the starter of this thread consider this ?
It would seem that miracles;prophesy and exorcism is no guarantee of anything?
Faith in Christ and a humble life led in prayer and service to him trying to love God and our neighbours would be where we should look to see the proper church.

Matthew 7

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

I would think it a fair question to ask our eastern brothers in Christ what their opinion is of these things but could we get a fair answer from them with such a loaded question?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It is not. I would expect you to read about these things or, since you are a learned and bright chap, already know about them and come up with an opinion. For example, Mormons claim that Joseph Smith translated the plates of Moroni and spoke with God. I’ve read about it, and I reject it. I believe those are false revelations. I think the safe answer is where you wish to stay. I would like to read an Orthodox post that is honest about it.

You say you don’t want the “safe answer.” I would think you would prefer the honest answer. How could I possibly know? You are asking me to speculate about things of which I have zero experience. I told you what I do know, that God loves and desires the salvation of every single human being and that He bestows grace when and where He chooses. That is enough for me…it should be enough for you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Beautifully-stated, Joseph L. I wish our Orthodox brethren would step up and choose one of those three 1, 2, or 3

Here’s St. Ignatius Loyola’s take on it: unusual phenomena are either

1. of purely natural origin
2. supernatural, coming from God
3. supernatural, coming from the devil.

Thus, when EO posters suggested that Fatima (1917) must be coming from the devil, I realize the only alternative explanations were that this was either some natural phenomenon, or coming from God.

Excluding the suggestion I found on the orthodoxinfo.com website, that it could have been an UFO, we are down to 2 possibilities:

1. either Fatima came from the devil, and the Catholic Church has lost the ability to properly discern it, and the Popes look like fools, proclaiming that the apparition of Fatima is “worthy of belief”,

OR

1. Fatima is from God, and God truly put the Pope in charge of the universal Church and in charge of all people, including Russian people in Russia. Not the Moscow Patriarch, but the Pope. And, while our EO brethren reject the dogma of Immaculate Conception, we Catholics are commanded to pick up the slack and make reparation for their sin of offending Holy Mary, through their rejection of her Immaculate Conception.

 

[smad0142]

As reagards to #3 posted above, it would be more accurate to say preternatural, from the Devil. Lets not give old scratch more credit then he is due.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve actually spoken with several Orthodox in here who have told me outside the forum that they think the miracles and supernatural events Catholicism claims to have within her holy walls are indeed from Old Nick himself. So you’re not far off in what a few believe. I don’t think they’d say so out loud in the forum though…

As reagards to #3 posted above, it would be more accurate to say preternatural, from the Devil. Lets not give old scratch more credit then he is due.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

It is highly recomended we show respect and charity in these discussions.
Violations will result in prompt action
Thank you

 

[GaryTaylor]

I can honestly say I haven’t research all the Catholic Miracles or Mystics.

But Fatima, Teresa of Avila, Padre Pio, among a few others are all documented with muliple witness’s. John of the Cross, Francis of Assisi.

Vatican just released a book they’ve held since the early 60’s on Padre Pio. They sent a Bishop to the monestary as a new monk. He documented everything he witnessed for 18-months. Dominicans sent me notice it was just released.

Our Lady of Sorrows with the Jesuits is highly documented also.

Zeitoun Egypt with the Coptics is pretty amazing also.

 

[shaky]

Here’s St. Ignatius Loyola’s take on it: unusual phenomena are either

1. of purely natural origin
2. supernatural, coming from God
3. supernatural, coming from the devil.

Thus, when EO posters suggested that Fatima (1917) must be coming from the devil, I realize the only alternative explanations were that this was either some natural phenomenon, or coming from God.

Excluding the suggestion I found on the orthodoxinfo.com website, that it could have been an UFO, we are down to 2 possibilities:

1. either Fatima came from the devil, and the Catholic Church has lost the ability to properly discern it, and the Popes look like fools, proclaiming that the apparition of Fatima is “worthy of belief”,

OR

1. Fatima is from God, and God truly put the Pope in charge of the universal Church and in charge of all people, including Russian people in Russia. Not the Moscow Patriarch, but the Pope. And, while our EO brethren reject the dogma of Immaculate Conception, we Catholics are commanded to pick up the slack and make reparation for their sin of offending Holy Mary, through their rejection of her Immaculate Conception.

Then the new teaching of Immaculate conception of Mary leads to the new teaching of the Assumption of Mary because Mary cannot die because of her immaculate conception.
Is salvation dependant on these new teachings?
Salvation was enough without those new teachings!!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Then the new teaching of Immaculate conception of Mary leads to the new teaching of the Assumption of Mary.

There is no “new teaching of the Immaculate Conception” it pre-dates the 1400’s and was appoved at Basel in the 1430’s, then that council was rejected by the Catholic Church because of Christian attendence. Then another 400-years later its approved.

And no, one didn’t lead to the other. Thats another misconception. What lead to the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are competely different reality’s.

because Mary cannot die because of her immaculate conception.

One has nothing to do with the other. The Immaculate Conception simply means Mary was free from sin before Jesus Christ enters Mary by Gods Blessing. And Mary being free from sin was a Blessing by God and a truth that God could not be born in a vessel which is not pure. Which here relates to the Ark, Mary being the New Ark. The fact that Mary obtains the status She does has more to do with Her obediance and consecration to God. Simply read Luke, then understand no-where does Mary fail from that point till Her death in flesh.

Is salvation dependant on these new teachings?

Salvation does not depend on this teaching. Its a Catholic teaching and required belief of the followers of the Catholic Church. Are you not a Christian? What do you believe Salvation consists of?

Salvation was enough without those new teachings!!

Again your confused, the reality of the Blessed Mother in the Catholic Church may lead one to Salvation by her intervention. But there are many in the Catholic Church who simply do not follow the devotion, but they acknowledge the teaching. I didn’t pray to Mary for decades and was raised Catholic.

Nonethless its known fact how in a mystical way we as humans cannot comprehend, The Blessed Mother has had the abilty throughout time as we know it, to bring Millions of followers to Her son.

All one need to see is look at the Blues Army and Fatima, or the Rosary in time or with the Confraternity of the Dominicans today. These followers through the intercession of the Blessed Mother have been able to regain the Vision of God in one the most difficult periods in mankind.

The victorys of Our Lady may be quiet, but they are nonetheless very real. And you can research this back into the single digit centurys with Poland and Italy and other Eastern Catholic/Orthodox churchs. The reality of Marys intercession for those who sincerely ask and pray to Her, to help them find Her Son. Is a known fact throughout the Centurys.

Theres 2500 Biographys of Mary, no-woman in the History of the World has been more venerated than the Blessed Mother. No woman has been more venerated in the Arts either. Culture, Racial and Ethnic Social and Physical barriers have no power over the Blessed Mother. All one need do is study History.

In you case it would simply be better to say “I do not understand or have the complete knowledge” than to take a foolish path and say “I do not believe” then enter into a arrogant state of mind with Blasphemies.

The problem in our time “is” how the Holy Spirit works with/through Mary. We are still learning and not fully understanding. We do know She has received much Grace and Blessings from God in our time now. Its believed through the visitations at Pontevedra of the Most Holy Trinity and the Blessed Mother and the message left to the Seer their. That the Blashemies of the Blessed Mother will not be forgiven.

Christ stated; “Have compassion on the Heart of your Most Holy Mother, covered with thorns, with which the ungrateful men pierce It at every moment, and there is no one to make an act of Reparation to remove them”

Christ went on to explain exactly what the Blasphemies are, and that they would not be forgiven in this world or the next without Pray to Mary for forgiveness.

So now you know. Should you chose not to follow Mary or ask Her for intercession? Its really not the point or deciding factor in your Salvation, through it may well come to that. What is a big is the blasphemies for no good reason.

Take it for what its worth. The Blessed Mothers reality and teachings and required belief are very much a part of the Catholic Faith, Christian history including protestant. Not long ago in 1906 Baptist Churchs in the South were praying to Mary in their Hymns, not a new concept my friend, but one promoted today by satan and the un-informed by disregarding the Blessed Mother…

God Bless, Gary

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’ve always been fascinated by Catholic supernatural phenomenon and the miracles the Catholic Church embraces, etc. Things like Fatima, the miracles of Padre Pio, Lourdes, the Dolorous Passion visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich, and so many other miracles by saints, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, exorcisms like the famous St. Louis Exorcism that inspired the famous Exorcist film, etc.

If the Catholic Church were illegitimate, devoid of grace, and no longer an instrument of active and powerful salvation used by God since the Great Schism, wouldn’t it necessitate that Orthodox reject these powerful and awesome miracles?

This thread is directed mostly to Orthodox, though Catholics can and should chime in, to find out if Orthodox believe in these miracles, reject them as figments of Catholic imagination, or just claim they’re false altogether?

The poll is really for Orthodox only (Orthodox not in communion with Rome)

Gurney,
Very interesting question. I’m following the thread, though I am not EO or Catholic in Communion with the Roman Pontiff.

Peace,
Anna

P.S. These are two quotes from another one of your threads. I realize you are asking for EO responses, but hopefully you will forgive my adding this experience to the thread.

Gurney,

I think there are certain experiences that can definitely give credibility to a particular faith.

Many years ago, I visited St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I was with my mother and sister. This was a stop on our one-day bus tour of Montreal.

My mother was a very devout Christian, brought up in a Southern Baptist Church. As we walked through the candlelit hall leading to Frère André’s tomb, my Mom stopped to light a candle. I was really surprised. I could tell something was going on with her. After we left, she said she thought there really was something special about Brother André.’ She experienced a strong presence of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind, my Mom was in no way “charismatic.” She really couldn’t quite put the experience into words. The experience did have a positive effect on her view of the Catholic Church.

Here I am nearly 30 years later, learning about the communion of the Saints; and I have this memory of my Mom’s experience on the site of Catholic pilgrimage and worship. There is something powerful about that.

Frère André was beatified in 1982. I think our trip to Montreal was around 1983 or 1984. I read Frère André was to be canonized a saint in October of this year. Does anyone have an update on this?

Peace and Blessings, my brother,
Anna

I can relate to you and your mother’s experience. Before I was Catholic I’d visit Catholic churches and always felt the presence of God there. Little did I know then that it was the Real Presence in the tabernacle–that Jesus was really and truly present.

As to Br. Andre, he has indeed been canonized.