Eastern rite and traditional catholics

  • Thread starter Thread starter sir_galahad
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’ve attended a Ruthenian Divine Liturgy in Houston, and it was very moving–and completely unlike what I am used to. Last week, I attended my first Latin Mass at the cathedral in Austin. As a convert, this was even more exotic to me than the Eastern Rite (the Eastern Rite was in English, after all.)

That being said, I would attend the Latin Mass at least once a month, if it weren’t 100 miles away and I had a newer vehicle. My very orthodox priest, however, plans to institute the Latin Mass in our parish as soon as he is able, I feel sure. Our church is very beautiful and will lend itself well to the Latin Mass.

I don’t want to sidetrack your thread. In answer to your question, I was happy to be back in my own parish the week after I attended the Divine Liturgy. Still, I would love to visit an Eastern Rite Catholic Church again, if given the opportunity.
We would love for you to join us again.

Every time I am blessed with the opportunity to experience Catholic worship in a different sui juris church or ritual expression, it really helps me to understand the vastness of the Catholic faith.

I have to say one of the most beautiful liturgies I have attended has been Roman Mass in Korean. The music and particular customs were amazing… It was 100% in Korean, but I felt at home surrounded by other Catholics.
 
Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner:
I have to say one of the most beautiful liturgies I have attended has been Roman Mass in Korean. The music and particular customs were amazing… It was 100% in Korean, but I felt at home surrounded by other Catholics.
People from Southern Korea? 🙂

I’ve heard that Christianity (including Catholicism) is really booming in South Korea. Well, I know even from around here, Korean churches are popping up all over the place.
 
Orthodox ecclesiology, so far as I can tell from what I’ve read of it, is tied in very much with sacramentality, especially as it relates to the local church. Orthodox ecclesiology is very much rooted in the Ignatian tradition: where Christ is [celebrated in the Mysteries], and by the bishop, there is the Church. One Eucharist. One Bishop. One Church.
On the face of it, such would be true, but the organization of supra-diocesan/eparchal churches wherein patriarchs, primates or synods in fact weild an authority above and beyond that of a local ordinary to which a local ordinary is accountable is notable.
The Eastern appreciation of “Sister Churches” in communion with one another is still lost in the West, IMHO.
In the west, having accepted a notion of papal authority and have centralized the relationship somewhat.
What did the Catholic Church formally teach on contraception in the 1st millenium? Which canons, councils or papal writings deal with this issue?
catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp
By the way, speaking of novel ecclesiology, just remember: The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. (Wait, where is that found in the 1st millenium? 🤷)
That is so open ended I can’t begin to answer without you making some clarification.
 
Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner:

On the face of it, such would be true, but the organization of supra-diocesan/eparchal churches wherein patriarchs, primates or synods in fact weild an authority above and beyond that of a local ordinary to which a local ordinary is accountable is notable.
Then the practice needs to be ammended to fit the canons. It’s a problem, just like the problem in Orthodoxy with an over-identification of Orthodoxy with nationality. The Latin Church, in more recent years, in returning to a fuller understanding of the Latin bishops as more than personal deputies of the Pope and as bishops in their own right.
http://catholic.com/library/Contraception_and_Sterilization.asp

The quotes at this link condemn the contraception mindset, unclean sexual acts, and self-inflicted sterilization.

The Fathers seem especially critical of those who engage in the sexual act, not for the procreation of children, but simply to satisfy their lusts.

If you can find any truly Orthodox texts (and not simply one person’s opinion) which actively support the contraception mindset, unclean sexual acts, and self-inflicted sterilization, I’d be interested in seeing them. 😃
 
Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner:

That is so open ended I can’t begin to answer without you making some clarification.
Oh, it wasn’t a question; there’s no need to answer. 😉
 
If you can find any truly Orthodox texts (and not simply one person’s opinion) which actively support the contraception mindset, unclean sexual acts, and self-inflicted sterilization, I’d be interested in seeing them. 😃
I am not sure where you are going here or clearly what you are asking…

Please google and do your own due dillegence to see what is out there.
 
We didn’t just get the Roman traditionalists brother!

I have also found that we have inherited a goodly number of Roman liberals with liturgical sensibility. Especially on the net, I find a disproportionate number of folks trying to manipulate what it is to be Eastern Catholic as some “catch-22” way of being Catholic but dismissing some of Catholicism as “just for the Latins”.

“Well I am Orthodox in Communion with Rome, so I don’t believe some Roman things, because I am Orthodox…”

The matter gets sticky and tricky frequently.

After V2 efforts in our churches began to explore returning to our liturgical roots and heritage. So far it has been a pretty mixed bag as to how well this has gone…
It is odd that you would mention this, but I encountered it myself the one time I attended the Divine Liturgy. I guess Latin Rite Catholics don’t often consider that Eastern Catholics might be struggling with liberalism, too, even if it comes to them from the outside (i.e., disgruntled Latin Catholics.) Actually, the liberal element I came into contact with was in the form of an ex-Roman with “liturgical sensibilities.” That being said, I would happily go back to the Eastern Catholic church I visited–if it weren’t so far away. The Latin Mass is even farther for me. It’s a good thing for my parish that our priest is devout–and orthodox, and from what he has indicated, will be offering a Latin Mass in September.
 
I’m curious, where do you attend? I’m in the Houston area as well…
I went to St. John Chrysostom. It’s off 290 (Mangum, I think) in Northwest Houston. They have a website. Thought I had it bookmarked, but now I can’t find it. If you do a Google search, you’ll find it.🙂
 
It is odd that you would mention this, but I encountered it myself the one time I attended the Divine Liturgy. I guess Latin Rite Catholics don’t often consider that Eastern Catholics might be struggling with liberalism, too, even if it comes to them from the outside (i.e., disgruntled Latin Catholics.) Actually, the liberal element I came into contact with was in the form of an ex-Roman with “liturgical sensibilities.” That being said, I would happily go back to the Eastern Catholic church I visited–if it weren’t so far away. The Latin Mass is even farther for me. It’s a good thing for my parish that our priest is devout–and orthodox, and from what he has indicated, will be offering a Latin Mass in September.
Well, when you really think about it, it’s not surprising that there’s an attraction to Eastern Catholicism by liberal Romans (or at least their strange views of what Eastern Catholicism is). People have seen a Protestant influence on the Church in the past 40 years. But it seems there has also been an Orthodox influence, more obvious in the Eastern Catholic Churches, but also present in the Roman rite. Look at how many problems in the contemporary Roman rite could be seen as concessions to the Orthodox just as much as they could be seen as concessions to the Protestants – downplaying papal infallibility and traditional Catholic pieties such as the Rosary and the Sacred Heart, as well as cries to eliminate clerical celibacy and the bans on birth control and divorce and remarriage. A liberal Catholic who wanted to justify these untenable positions could have recourse to Eastern Orthodox authorities just as easily as he could to Protestant ones.
 
I went to St. John Chrysostom. It’s off 290 (Mangum, I think) in Northwest Houston. They have a website. Thought I had it bookmarked, but now I can’t find it. If you do a Google search, you’ll find it.🙂
Actually, it’s off Antoine on Acorn Street–not Mangum. Sorry!🤷 My husband always drives!!
 
I didn’t say they were ardent supporters of the Pope or even if they call themselves Catholic. Just that they have Apostolic Successors and a valid Catholic Mass, which you can attend to fulfill your obligation, provided you don’t develop a schismatic mindset, just like with any valid Catholic Rite Mass.

I believe Polish National Church is also considered a Catholic Rite but am not sure.
The Orthodox share the rites of the Eastern Catholic, but that a lone does not make them Catholic.

The PNCC cannot be understood to be a “Catholic rite” in the sense of either being a sui juris church in the Catholic Church or being possesed of a dsitinctive litrugtical rite - they use their modification of the traditional liturgy - I believe originally using a version of the TLM in Polish and then the new rite.

On the question of going to an Orthodox or PNCC parish to “fulfill one’s obligation” such should not be seen or painted as a carte blanche allowance for opting to go to said parishes as an alternative to attending a Catholic service if/when/because it happens to be closer or one has a preference for the liturgies offered there.
 
It is odd that you would mention this, but I encountered it myself the one time I attended the Divine Liturgy. I guess Latin Rite Catholics don’t often consider that Eastern Catholics might be struggling with liberalism, too, even if it comes to them from the outside (i.e., disgruntled Latin Catholics.) Actually, the liberal element I came into contact with was in the form of an ex-Roman with “liturgical sensibilities.”
I came into contact with this a decade ago when some of our cradle Greek Catholics and converts (Yes Virginia, there really are people that become Catholic through the Eastern CCs!) suggested the possibility of forming a study group of the (then newly published) Catechism of the Catholic Church. Some of the liberal ex-RCs bitterly complained “That is Latin, that is for them, not us.”

Sadly, not all of the dissent or liberalism has been imported. Some of it is rather home grown. I give you the modern Sisters of St. Basil. (Average age, 75, number of postulents in the last 14 years: 1)

I remember once eating lunch with a member - a grey haired gal in a ***pants suit ***who had just returned from a ***sabbatical ***in New Orleans with some like minded elderly Latin sisters studying some ***neo-spirituality ***and (I kid you not) attending a seminar on renewing the church from patriarchy to “inclusion”.

I gingerly inquired of her what the traditional charism of the Sisters of St. Basil was.

Without skipping a beat “That is a Latin concept!”

“Oh, that’s Latin!” Thinks me “You mean like taking sabbaticals, living outside of your monastery, wearing pants suits and NOT habits, eating meat for lunch on a wednesday and railing against patriarchy? How vostochnik (eastern) of you!”

Of course I kept this to myself out of charity, respect and fear. Honestly, she would have broken me in half.

There has been a bit of a sea change in the past two decades especially in the liturgical and spiritual sensibilities of many Greek Catholics. For decades many were of the mindset that to be “too Eastern” might mean we are not Catholic so Baltimore Catechisms and Latin devotions were readily embraced. Roman style clerical dress and/or religous habits were the norm.

In heading the Holy Father’s wisdom that we re-explore our own heritage and renew and return to some of our older venerable devotions like the Akathist hymn, and parochial celebration of the office like vespers and matins rather than supplant them with things like Stations of the Cross, a Byzantine version of Eucharistic adoration and the rosary, some have sort of hijacked the directives and made them to sound as though Greek Catholics were to no longer be concearned with anything that might be viewed as “too Latin.”

One party of disaffected RCs cum Melkites tried to explain to me that *Humanae Vitae *was of no concern to us because it was issued by the “Latin Patriarch in a pastoral letter to his (Latin) faithful.” The implication being that we could pick and choose what was coming from Rome by dismissing what we did not care for as being “for the Latins.”

For my own private devotion to the Rosary and my efforts to be faithful to the Holy Father, these folks routinely excoriated me as being “Latinized” - the ultimate insult in their parlance. “You are being too Latin! You are thinking like a Latin now!”

It is especially important for tradition lovers of all stripes to head this warning: In the Greek Catholic Church, our venerable traditional liturgy has not preserved us from some of these folks. And some of the most vocal dissidents in our church also have the longest beards and kiss the most icons.

Form alone does not guarantee orthodoxy or preclude dissent.
 
Yes, I noticed that after I posted.

My apologies. 🙂
s’all right.

I’m one of that mixed bag. I am not comfortable with much of the roman symbolism (including some of the pre VII and some post VII), but the Ruthenian works well.

Plus, Eastern theological approach to Holy Mysteries makes a lot more sense: Simply accept it, incense it heavily, throw a veil over it, and move on… (Rev. Fr. Steven Greskowiak.)

The Roman, and especially Jesuit, tendency to try to explain the Holy Mysteries really cheapens them… One need not explain the trinity, merely accept it and move on. Ibid the transubstantiation.
 
s’all right.

I’m one of that mixed bag. I am not comfortable with much of the roman symbolism (including some of the pre VII and some post VII), but the Ruthenian works well.

Plus, Eastern theological approach to Holy Mysteries makes a lot more sense: Simply accept it, incense it heavily, throw a veil over it, and move on… (Rev. Fr. Steven Greskowiak.)

The Roman, and especially Jesuit, tendency to try to explain the Holy Mysteries really cheapens them… One need not explain the trinity, merely accept it and move on. Ibid the transubstantiation.
I can appreciate your sentiments and thinking on this matter somewhat, for sure.

But in defense of the Latins and their quest for theological precision, I rather feel they do no less than carry on the venerable tradition of theological precision that our forefathers did so many centuries ago in hashing out, for example, some of the debates on the nature of Christ at Nicea and Chalcedon or Ephesus.

On the face of it what has been repudiated as un-orthodox by EO and Catholic parties - Nestorianism, Monophosytism, and a number of other “isms” really, at first glance, don’t seem like it should have been THAT big of a deal… Yet the Church Fathers did not seem content to leave it at “One need not explain the exact nature of how Christ was devine, just accept that he was and leave it at that.”
 
They reacted to the heretic’s mis-interpretation by clarifying their own.

Yes, I know the (general) history of the council reactions.

The theologians and the Magisterium do need a working theory… but some of the stuff the Roman rite generates and puts forth for the people is simply clouding the issue with needless details.

The Eastern emphasis is on faith, not on comprehension.
 
For Madaglan
If you can find any truly Orthodox texts (and not simply one person’s opinion) which actively support the contraception mindset, unclean sexual acts, and self-inflicted sterilization, I’d be interested in seeing them. 😃
I tried I can’t find actual truly Orthodox texts that support it.
I do not think that exist.

We can find a few peoples inidividual opinions supporting it such as [edited by Moderator] Fr Stanley Harakas!!!

light-n-life.com/newsletters/09-01-2004.htm

Unbelievable that someone saying this is allowed to be the “*Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology Emeritus in the field of Orthodox Christian Ethics at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, Brookline, Mass., U.S.A *”

To a simple sinner:
And some of the most vocal dissidents in our church also have the longest beards and kiss the most icons.
So far the ones kissing the most icons and with the longest beards have actually been extremely “Orthodox” and correct so regarding all tradition, save certain papal authority ideas. But even there…mostly they are still wanting to be in communion with the Pope…So…although what you’re saying could be true. I doubt it has been many peoples experience that it is.

Although I my only experiences are with the Melkite & Maronite Catholics, Antiochian, Greek, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, Russian and Western Orthodox.

I do believe you are correct with some of the Sisters of St. Basil.

No offense to you but the Ruthenian Church is a little strange to be at times. They have a lot of weird ideas…latin liberalism influences to sell churches everywhere. But a lot of devoutly traditional people too like soon to be Bishop Thomas Loya, Jack Figel and the woman running the Icon & Book Shop in Washington, DC.
 
But in defense of the Latins and their quest for theological precision, I rather feel they do no less than carry on the venerable tradition of theological precision that our forefathers did so many centuries ago in hashing out, for example, some of the debates on the nature of Christ at Nicea and Chalcedon or Ephesus.
What matters is not whether the Latin Church came up with theology but that it is agreed upon by the Eastern Churches.

If Churches are discussing theology on an official level so as to soon promote it throughout the entire Church they must make certain that there is widespread agreement among hierarchies across ALL Churches Eastern and Western.

Until this happens schism and Satans plans will never end…fear and suspicion will win.
 
For Madaglan

I tried I can’t find actual truly Orthodox texts that support it.
I do not think that they exist. 😃

We can find a few peoples inidividual opinions supporting it such as the demented Fr Stanley Harakas!!!

light-n-life.com/newsletters/09-01-2004.htm

Unbelievable that someone saying this is allowed to be the “*Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology Emeritus in the field of Orthodox Christian Ethics at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, Brookline, Mass., U.S.A *”

To a simple sinner:

So far the ones kissing the most icons and with the longest beards have actually been extremely “Orthodox” and correct so regarding all tradition, save certain papal authority ideas. But even there…mostly they are still wanting to be in communion with the Pope…So…although what you’re saying could be true. I doubt it has been many peoples experience that it is.

Although I my only experiences are with the Melkite & Maronite Catholics, Antiochian, Greek, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, Russian and Western Orthodox.

I do believe you are correct with some of the Sisters of St. Basil.

No offense to you but the Ruthenian Church is a little strange to be at times. They have a lot of weird ideas…latin liberalism influences to sell churches everywhere. But a lot of devoutly traditional people too like soon to be Bishop Thomas Loya, Jack Figel and the woman running the Icon & Book Shop in Washington, DC.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top