Eastern rite and traditional catholics

[Irish_Melkite]

According to Canon Law, this is not true. If there is a “spiritual advantage” one may attend any Catholic Rite to fulfill his obligation.

The canon’s reference to “spiritual advantage” has nothing to do with fulfillment of the Latin Catholic’s obligation to attend Mass.

That obligation cannot, as someone pointed out, be fulfilled by attending Divine Liturgy or its equivalent in a temple of the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church, the Ancient Church of the East, or Mass at a PNCC church.

And, in fact, if there is no Catholic (Latin, Eastern, or Oriental)church available, one is dispensed from the obligation to attend.

Many years,

Neil

 

[ASimpleSinner]

So far the ones kissing the most icons and with the longest beards have actually been extremely “Orthodox” and correct so regarding all tradition, save certain papal authority ideas. But even there…mostly they are still wanting to be in communion with the Pope…So…although what you’re saying could be true. I doubt it has been many peoples experience that it is.

Although I my only experiences are with the Melkite & Maronite Catholics, Antiochian, Greek, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, Russian and Western Orthodox.

I was referring exclusively to self-identifying Catholic (Roman Communion to be clear) parties, not the Antiochian, Greek, Coptic, Ethiopian, Malankara, Russian and Western Orthodox. You seem to make no distinction in that matter.

I am in admiration of your ability to get around between all these parties to get such a good feel for them. Truth be told a little jealous.

On point though, I was referring to the outward forms of piety and expression - sometimes very eastern - that some in the Greek Catholic Churches have taken on while hiding some wildly modernist ideas behind their very beautiful bushy Byzantine beard. A very vostochnik East coast parish comes to mind. A mighty-eastern looking chap (no longer with ANY church now) so much as came right out and said point blank “all those Latin teachings on sexuality are just that, Latin and not applicable to us.” This was to the very approving private audience of homosexuals… but hey, he LOOKED the part.

Think about this… Why would the Pope attend a liturgy in Patriarch Bartholomew’s Phanar church of St George if he could only fulfill Sunday obligations at a papal Catholic Church alone?

On this matter Chris, I am sorry, the logic is specious because the dichotomy is false at several levels.
…Presupposing the Pontiff is subject to this obligation, then
…presupposing that he did not likely celebrate the Mass privately with his aids in the morning, then
…presupposing that the obligation is a call to merely seek out ANY euchatistic liturgy that is valid, and then
…presupposing that such a move at the highest level in an ecumenical gesture…

…well you are calling on us to make all these presuppositions and then infer that attending a non-Catholic (even if valid) Eucharistic celebration in leu of adhearing to our obligations to attend a Catholic church is OK.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I have to say one of the most beautiful liturgies I have attended has been Roman Mass in Korean. The music and particular customs were amazing… It was 100% in Korean, but I felt at home surrounded by other Catholics.

I feel like that every Sunday.

 

[Patchunky]

But a lot of devoutly traditional people too like soon to be Bishop Thomas Loya, Jack Figel and the woman running the Icon & Book Shop in Washington, DC.

Don’t think Fr. Tom will be a Bishop anytime in the near future… the only “post” opening up is Passaic and that’s going to the Slovak Byzantine Bishop from Canada…

As for Elaine, the woman “running” the Icon and Book Shop, she goes where the monks go. She’s been Ruthenian, OCA, ACROGC and now Ukrainian since I’ve been going there… I always have to ask her what calendar she’s following on the particular day I visit to make sure I give her the correct greating

 

[rcwhiteh]

Having read through the entire thread, I’m moved to offer my own (possibly unique) perspective on this issue.

I was born and raised Southern Baptist, in a family where the breadwinner had been so raised but had gone to a private Jesuit college (Spring Hill) in Mobile, AL. He hated Catholicism after that, and he taught he to do the same.

I fell away from the Baptist Church after I realized what a cult of personality it was. Shortly thereafter, I fell in love with a girl I had dated (off and on) since we were 11. I knew she was Catholic, but I had no idea she was Byzantine and of the Ukrainian Rescension.

I attended the Novus Ordo Mass with her family every Sunday for two years before we married; one month before our wedding, I was received into the Church as a communicant in the Byzantine Rite. The Greek-Melkite priest who baptized me traveled 100 miles (to come to the Roman parish we still attend) to baptize me.

I’m comfortable in the Novus Ordo Mass because it’s the only Roman Mass I’ve ever attended, but I find it still a little informal for my tastes. I love the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom for the atmosphere of worship and mystery it engenders, so I can only suppose that I would find the Tridentine Mass equally beautiful and fulfilling.

I can’t say that I believe that there is anything to be gained by celebrating the Mass - whether Tridentine or Novus Ordo - in Latin. It’s a beautiful tongue, and there are many pithy and salient sayings recorded in Latin, but Christ gave His Church the mission of preaching His Gospel to the people; they need to hear it in their language. (That said, I’m enough of a language geek that I’m sure I would swiftly become conversant with the Latin, if that became the norm.)

If Traditional Catholics love an atmosphere of reverence and worship, I know my fellow Eastern-Rite Catholics would rejoice to greet them at any of our Divine Liturgies. We are Catholic, in union with Rome - we just express our spirituality in the Eastern mode.

Maybe I’m a bit too progressive; I don’t think of myself as progressive - just wholly Catholic. I’ve been taught to “breathe with both lungs”, as JPII exhorted us; I find it eminently satisfying.

 

[steve_g]

At the heart of all worship is the pleasing of God, not our selves. Our heart felt love for God is seen by Him whether we attend TLM, NO, Eastern Orthodox mass or after hearing something so inspiring on EWTN you suddenly need to pull your car over to the side of the road as you find yourself weeping at the thought of Christ being ruthlessly nailed to the cross for MY sake… and for YOURS and YOURS… Attendence at the sacrafice of the mass and celebration of the Communion with the Holy Eucharist in the Church established by Jesus through St Peter is what matters most. Our personal preferrences take a distant second.
I would be remiss if I did not add that we, as fault filled creatures, do, indeed, need a sanctuary in which we feel that “special closeness” to God. While I agree the minimum (once weekly) mass attendence is just that. A daily, spiritual, communion with Our Lord will swell your heart with joy beyond compare.

God be with you all no matter what road you travel.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Some of it is rather home grown. I give you the modern Sisters of St. Basil. (Average age, 75, number of postulents in the last 14 years: 1)

I understand your concern, but fear not.

There’s a community of TRADITIONAL Eastern Sisters wearing the TRADITIONAL Eastern Habit under the Romanian Catholic Eparchy of Canton!

It’s about six of them, but they are all relatively young.

It was my privilege to meet them at the Pilgrimage in Newberry Springs, California, this last fall. God willing, I hope to go again!

So cheer up! All is not lost!

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Some of it is rather home grown. I give you the modern Sisters of St. Basil. (Average age, 75, number of postulents in the last 14 years: 1)

I understand your concern, but fear not.

There’s a community of TRADITIONAL Eastern Sisters wearing the TRADITIONAL Eastern Habit under the Romanian Catholic Eparchy of Canton!

It’s about six of them, but they are all relatively young.

It was my privilege to meet them at the Pilgrimage in Newberry Springs, California, this last fall. God willing, I hope to go again!

So cheer up! All is not lost!

I never thought it was!

I am well familiar and happy for this group.

Also check out Holy Transfiguration societystjohn.com/index.html Ukrainian Monks in the UP of Michigan…

Still, what makes me sad about the Sisters of St. Basil is that they were - along the Roman ideal - a working order that was out of the monastery and devoted to teaching and catechesis. Some hearrtily disagree with me, but I think there is room for both models in the Greek Catholic churches…

 

[Ad_Deum]

I’ll attend the Eastern Rite services than a NO Mass if there wasn’t any TLM around here.
Why?
Because at least Eastern Orthodoxy didn’t changed there Liturgies since its early years.

Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I’ll attend the Eastern Rite services than a NO Mass if there wasn’t any TLM around here.
Why?
Because at least Eastern Orthodoxy didn’t changed there Liturgies since its early years.

Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo

Eastern rite or Eastern Orthodox?

You are a little unclear here.

 

[Image_of_God]

I simply moan of my attachment to the Roman Rite. Sometimes I feel that God is calling me to an Eastern Rite, but am so attached to the Roman Rite. I take it as a disobedience to his will that I am so foolishly–not to be offensive—attached. I think, if it is his will that I am Eastern, why am I so attached to the Roman Rite? If this is his will, then am I sinning? For this reason, I dislike it.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<I simply moan of my attachment to the Roman Rite. Sometimes I feel that God is calling me to an Eastern Rite, but am so attached to the Roman Rite. I take it as a disobedience to his will that I am so foolishly–not to be offensive—attached. I think, if it is his will that I am Eastern, why am I so attached to the Roman Rite? If this is his will, then am I sinning? For this reason, I dislike it. >>

If you feel God is calling you to do something–ANYTHING–then you should do it, regardless of your own preferences.

But what you say at the end is unclear. Are you saying you’re sinning by being attached (understandably so) to the Roman rite? Or sinning by disliking something (which is itself not clear)?

 

[Image_of_God]

<<I simply moan of my attachment to the Roman Rite. Sometimes I feel that God is calling me to an Eastern Rite, but am so attached to the Roman Rite. I take it as a disobedience to his will that I am so foolishly–not to be offensive—attached. I think, if it is his will that I am Eastern, why am I so attached to the Roman Rite? If this is his will, then am I sinning? For this reason, I dislike it. >>

If you feel God is calling you to do something–ANYTHING–then you should do it, regardless of your own preferences.

But what you say at the end is unclear. Are you saying you’re sinning by being attached (understandably so) to the Roman rite? Or sinning by disliking something (which is itself not clear)?

I feel that my attachment to the Roman Rite is a sin. Though I completely into it, it is stopping me from doing what God’s Will. While I believe that it is God’s Will to go East, I am not actually sure. If going Eastern is God’s Will, then I am sinning by remaining a Roman, regardless of how attached I am to it.

 

[Image_of_God]

I feel that my attachment to the Roman Rite is a sin. Though I completely into it, it is stopping me from doing what God’s Will. While I believe that it is God’s Will to go East, I am not actually sure. If going Eastern is God’s Will, then I am sinning by remaining a Roman, regardless of how attached I am to it.

Sorry, I don’t neccessarily moan my attachment. I don’t know how to express my confusion. I suppose God works through our desires. But the only thing is to pray, I guess.

 

[steve_g]

Rest at ease. The last " perfect" obedience to God’s will *ended *almost two thousand years ago with the passion of the Christ, Jesus. Since then, the imperfect beings of this world have strived to follow God’s will as best we can. God’s plan for us is always a mystery. How else can we explain the death of an infant along with the rise of the likes of Adolph Hitler? We do not know His great plan! We only know what He has taught us through the prophets, Jesus and the apostles.

In this we know that Christ spake unto to Peter ( who, don’t forget, denied Him 3 times) and said that he was the rock on which He will build His Church. Imperfect (in our eyes) as the church has been over the centuries, it is still THE CHURCH, which Christ has declared as His. It’s head is our guide, our connection, our hope, our Pope. Though many temptations abound in this world, what is written in the srciptures is written. Period! It is not for us to question the will of God. Only to obey.

Those who deny the Pope and his lineage, deny the very word of Christ in the gospel we hold so dear.

Stand strong my brothers and sisters and God’s reward will follow.

 

[Image_of_God]

Rest at ease. The last " perfect" obedience to God’s will *ended *almost two thousand years ago with the passion of the Christ, Jesus. Since then, the imperfect beings of this world have strived to follow God’s will as best we can. God’s plan for us is always a mystery. How else can we explain the death of an infant along with the rise of the likes of Adolph Hitler? We do not know His great plan! We only know what He has taught us through the prophets, Jesus and the apostles.

In this we know that Christ spake unto to Peter ( who, don’t forget, denied Him 3 times) and said that he was the rock on which He will build His Church. Imperfect (in our eyes) as the church has been over the centuries, it is still THE CHURCH, which Christ has declared as His. It’s head is our guide, our connection, our hope, our Pope. Though many temptations abound in this world, what is written in the srciptures is written. Period! It is not for us to question the will of God. Only to obey.

Those who deny the Pope and his lineage, deny the very word of Christ in the gospel we hold so dear.

Stand strong my brothers and sisters and God’s reward will follow.

Who is this for?

 

[steve_g]

The original post is to anyone who seeks God’s truth.

 

[rcwhiteh]

I simply moan of my attachment to the Roman Rite. Sometimes I feel that God is calling me to an Eastern Rite, but am so attached to the Roman Rite. I take it as a disobedience to his will that I am so foolishly–not to be offensive—attached. I think, if it is his will that I am Eastern, why am I so attached to the Roman Rite? If this is his will, then am I sinning? For this reason, I dislike it.

Why not attend both?

 

[CrypticWritings]

I am Roman Rite, LOVE the Traditional Latin Mass and would attend an Eastern Rite Liturgy over the New “Novus Ordo” Mass ANY DAY!
In fact, I felt more at home in the Eastern Rites than I ever did at a “Novus Ordo” and have distanced myself from attending the new Mass. Beyond what I know intellectually, it actually “breaks my heart” to attend.
The Eastern Liturgies (such as the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom) are closer objectively to the Traditional Latin Mass that the new rite of Mass. In fact, the new Mass is the furthest “removed” from all the others.
Even if the new “Novus Ordo” Mass (the Ordinary form of Pope Paul VI) was executed exactly according to the ruberics in the GIRM, and even in Latin, I can’t see how it can be “beautiful” as even comparing the prayers to the Traditional Mass and the Divine Liturgy results in my observation of how weak and second rate the prayers of the New Mass are. I can’t figure out for the life of me why it was even necessary and it was “change for the sake of change”.
Honestly, I hate to get into polemics, but I can’t see how an entire commitee can come up with something that weak.
I’ve been to what people call a “reverant” Novus Ordo Liturgy which was in Latin and it killed me inside as much as I tried to accept it. The 1969/70 Mass/Ordinary form is something that I don’t like objectively, and on top of that it sends out the message that it is “okay” and acceptable to have a comittee decide the luturgy and what it “right” for the faithful which goes against the tradition of the church and what the Liturgy is all about. Christ gave us a gift at the Last supper and it was organically developed into the Traditional Liturgy…
I remember when I came back to the Catholic Faith after several years away I had never been to a Traditional Mass; the N.O. was all I knew growing up…But once I got past the emotions of my “conversion” I started to see how horrible the prayers were.
I was military and I wondered how it could be that the prayers offered to God were less reverent than the military ceremonies and the “pomp and circumstance” that I had witnesses. When I read the prayers and how the New Mass was organized, I thought “Wow! a third grader could have done better than this!”
That was when I discovered the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom…Keep in mind I had NEVER been to a TLM yet. The TLM was sort of a “legend” to me hearing about it from my grandparents and parents attending before the new Mass and not knowing that it was still offered at often “hard to find” locations…
When I went to the Divine Liturgy, I remember I “fell in love”. I even remember asking God “How it was possible for the Mass I grew up with and returned to, to be so horrible?” When the Divine Liturgy started I thought “Wow Lord, are you kidding me!? This is awesome!..How could I ever “like” the new Mass?”
A year later I finally attended a TLM and “fell in love once again”…
I prefer and attend the TLM over the Eastern Rite…it is where I feel I fit in to God’s plan and I know he made me a Roman Rite Catholic for a reason, but I sure do still love the Eastern Rite immensly…its’ just that beautiful!..And I could relate to Eastern rite Catholics far better than I every related to anyone in a Novus Ordo Parish…no offense to them as people, but apart from the liturgy there is just some sort of bond I sense with Eastern Rite Catholics and Traditional Roman rite Catholics that cannot be matched.
I know I should be thankful to Christ for his Church, and what he has blessed me with instead of complaining and also being negative…I need to focus on positive things while I pray for the tradition I want to “make a full comeback”…But still I don’t mind telling God how I really feel, and I am rather blunt about it…I know He can handle it!..It’s me I’m worried about!

 

[Aramis]

I’m not a canon lawyer, but it seems to me that, even if a synod elects a patriarch, Rome still has to confirm this election, to ok it.

Not exactly. The pope merely accepts or rejects reunion. If the Patriarch ceases to act as a Catholic, the pope CAN retire him.

Aramis;2531559:

And, in the US at least, invaded by Traditionalists and refugees from the Roman Rite, who can accept the “unchanging” DL of St. John but not the NO liturgy.

I sniff sarcasm.

Yup!

The Ruthenians managed to drive out so many traditionalists recently it is startling… simply by announcing (and then promulgating) a new, greek derived (rather than Slavonic derived), translation of the DL of St. John and St. Basil.

As they say, “the Cafeteria is closed.” But you’ve got 27 choices of Fine Dining full meals to pick from… (23 sui iuris churches, plus the additional western rites and the Ex.Form…)

My apologies.

None needed…