T
TheLittleLady
Guest
It sounds as if you know some very shallow people, are these people you have relationship with in real life or simply people you talk to on the internet?
- Status
H
Hodos
Guest
I don’t know that I would agree with your presupposition that atheists have easier lives than believers. But just for sake of argument, let’s assume they do. Why would you assume that it is God who is responsible for the trials and tribulations that believers face? Would it not make much more sense that the world which has been subjected to sin is hostile to God, and therefore is hostile to those who confess Jesus as Lord? This is certainly the Biblical perspective provided in places such as 1 Peter, Matthew, etc. God may allow us to face such tribulations; however, the responsibility for bringing about these tribulations rests with the sinful state of the world.
Last edited:
M
MockSock
Guest
S
somecanadian
Guest
They develop their own worldviews.
My atheist husband has Catholic morality. “Do no harm to others. Etc. etc.” I don’t know where it comes from, I just know he has a strong desire to be gracious, kind, etc. All things that Catholics are called to. It’s why we were compatible.
I would imagine it stems from the belief that we have only this life. Why would you ruin someone else’s experience of this life? Especially if this is the ONLY life they’ll have? I don’t know though. I’ve never asked: “How can you be so moral? You don’t have God?” because I think it’s a rather silly thing to ask.
My atheist husband has Catholic morality. “Do no harm to others. Etc. etc.” I don’t know where it comes from, I just know he has a strong desire to be gracious, kind, etc. All things that Catholics are called to. It’s why we were compatible.
I would imagine it stems from the belief that we have only this life. Why would you ruin someone else’s experience of this life? Especially if this is the ONLY life they’ll have? I don’t know though. I’ve never asked: “How can you be so moral? You don’t have God?” because I think it’s a rather silly thing to ask.
P
PickyPicky
Guest
Hi, MockSock
@somecanadian has got it about right, I think. One doesn’t have to be a believer to have empathy, and empathy is the basis of the Golden Rule, on which most morality is based. Indeed I would tentatively suggest (and this is not at all intended to be carping) that when a Christian helps someone who is suffering, it is not necessarily because he/she remembers Christ’s teaching at that moment, but because he/she feels that immediate flow of empathy which is natural to human beings. (I am prepared to accept that the knowledge of Christ’s teaching may for some people strengthen their empathetic instincts). Whatever our beliefs may be, the sight of a child in pain moves us.
@somecanadian has got it about right, I think. One doesn’t have to be a believer to have empathy, and empathy is the basis of the Golden Rule, on which most morality is based. Indeed I would tentatively suggest (and this is not at all intended to be carping) that when a Christian helps someone who is suffering, it is not necessarily because he/she remembers Christ’s teaching at that moment, but because he/she feels that immediate flow of empathy which is natural to human beings. (I am prepared to accept that the knowledge of Christ’s teaching may for some people strengthen their empathetic instincts). Whatever our beliefs may be, the sight of a child in pain moves us.
M
MockSock
Guest
Thanks for not getting all defensive @PickyPicky.
I personally cannot imagine why or how anyone would or could have any kind of moral compass without believing in, at least, some sort of higher power. It just doesn’t make any sense in my mind. And I mean that quite honestly.
Regarding helping the suffering. I would say that Christianity, as I’m sure you are well aware, is based on love. We are not commanded only to love God but also to love others. Just two of many scriptural passages I would mention are:
“If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not? And this commandment we have from God, that he, who loveth God, love also his brother.” (1 John 4: 20-22)
“A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.” (John 13: 34-35)
Therefore by helping the suffering, we are obeying Christ and fulfilling our Christian duty. We help them because we love them as our neighbour which is “Christ’s teaching” whether we remember it in the moment or not.
We also feel “empathy” for them because we are called to see Christ in every person - especially, as Blessed Theresa of Calcutta said, “in the disguise of the poor”.
I personally cannot imagine why or how anyone would or could have any kind of moral compass without believing in, at least, some sort of higher power. It just doesn’t make any sense in my mind. And I mean that quite honestly.
Regarding helping the suffering. I would say that Christianity, as I’m sure you are well aware, is based on love. We are not commanded only to love God but also to love others. Just two of many scriptural passages I would mention are:
“If any man say, I love God, and hateth his brother; he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother, whom he seeth, how can he love God, whom he seeth not? And this commandment we have from God, that he, who loveth God, love also his brother.” (1 John 4: 20-22)
“A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.” (John 13: 34-35)
Therefore by helping the suffering, we are obeying Christ and fulfilling our Christian duty. We help them because we love them as our neighbour which is “Christ’s teaching” whether we remember it in the moment or not.
We also feel “empathy” for them because we are called to see Christ in every person - especially, as Blessed Theresa of Calcutta said, “in the disguise of the poor”.
I
inquiringmind12
Guest
Well they don’t have to constantly guard their conscious like us who want to please God do. So in a way they have it easier with life on earth.
P
PickyPicky
Guest
Yes of course what you say about Christ’s teaching is true.
But perhaps what we need to deal with is the similarities between the moralities professed by people of many religions and of none. Perhaps that is because morality is freely available outside the teachings of any particular religion.
Yes, Christians often say that, and I believe them, and yet they observe atheists and agnostics and other non-Christians behaving as though they too had a moral compass — and frequently one aligned in the same way. Sometimes Christians explain this by suggesting that atheists have become as it were infected by Christian morality almost against their wishes.
But perhaps what we need to deal with is the similarities between the moralities professed by people of many religions and of none. Perhaps that is because morality is freely available outside the teachings of any particular religion.
S
somecanadian
Guest
I do think there’s some validity to this being a Christian culture and certain Christian morality will rub off on people raised in this culture, even if they reject the religion itself.
WE can’t really know unless we examine atheists outside of this culture.
I have had the pleasure of knowing atheists outside this culture BUT they were raised in Christian homes that they then rejected as adults so it’s also a muddied pool as you could argue they learned Christian morality in those homes.
Not sure how one would measure the impact of society and home life on the morality of the atheist who emerges from those homes.
WE can’t really know unless we examine atheists outside of this culture.
I have had the pleasure of knowing atheists outside this culture BUT they were raised in Christian homes that they then rejected as adults so it’s also a muddied pool as you could argue they learned Christian morality in those homes.
Not sure how one would measure the impact of society and home life on the morality of the atheist who emerges from those homes.
P
PickyPicky
Guest
True, but if we find similarities between Christian morality and atheists’ morality and, say, Buddhist morality we might ask whether there is not something other than religion involved.
M
MockSock
Guest
You mean this:
“All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 7: 12)
Last edited:
D
DarkLight
Guest
Interestingly, I’ve often heard the opposite from atheists as well. They feel like it’s hard for them to understand how a believer can have a true moral compass, because it seems like they’re always doing things because God will reward them for this or punish them for that. And they have a hard time understanding how you could really care about people who can’t necessarily reward you when there’s always a built-in system that gives you a reward (like a kid who gets a piece of candy for being good).
P
PickyPicky
Guest
Yep, that’s the thing:You mean this:
“All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 7: 12)
“Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you." – Isocrates
“Treat others as you treat yourself” — Mahabharata
“Do not do to others what you know has hurt yourself” — the Tamil Kural.
Etc etc etc
T
TheLittleLady
Guest
Would you break this down for me?
M
MockSock
Guest
Christians will do things just because they hope they will be rewarded for it, but this is just our fallen human nature. However, there is no merit in this. St Paul says “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Galatians 6: 24).
Ideally, we would always obey God because we love Him because He is all good and worthy of all love.
" If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14: 15)
Ideally, we would always obey God because we love Him because He is all good and worthy of all love.
" If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14: 15)
Last edited:
D
DarkLight
Guest
I mean, that’s a fair reply…I’m just pointing out the lack of understanding how the other side could be truly moral doesn’t just go one way.
I
Inquisitor85
Guest
As an atheist I’d say that my life is as difficult as a believers, life is hard and while I appreciate that some have it harder than others it’s not a picnic for anyone really.
As for the heartless commenter above who said atheists aren’t affected by the deaths of loved ones, we are deeply affected just as believers are. While it’s true that I believe I won’t see those I’ve lost again I cherish the memories I have of them. I can imagine the comfort believers get from the idea of afterlife, but there’s nothing I’ve seen to support the hypothesis so unfortunately as I see it reality sucks.
@MockSock I personally cannot see how one can believe in any deity, much less why one should be worshipped. I also struggle to see how one could base ones morality on the need for one.
As for the heartless commenter above who said atheists aren’t affected by the deaths of loved ones, we are deeply affected just as believers are. While it’s true that I believe I won’t see those I’ve lost again I cherish the memories I have of them. I can imagine the comfort believers get from the idea of afterlife, but there’s nothing I’ve seen to support the hypothesis so unfortunately as I see it reality sucks.
@MockSock I personally cannot see how one can believe in any deity, much less why one should be worshipped. I also struggle to see how one could base ones morality on the need for one.
0
0Scarlett_nidiyilii
Guest
I’m not so sure anybody has a completely independent moral compass that was never influenced by any outside agency.
We aren’t born moral. We’re born with desires. We have to be taught morals by other people.
But let me say what I have observed.
A Catholic is serious about her faith. For various reasons, she has decided to follow the moral teachings of her religion. She learns everything she can about what the teachings are, and the reasoning behind it, and tries (although imperfectly because we are all sinners) to follow that code, even the difficult or unpopular teachings.
An atheist wants to be a good person. She’s friendly and affable, is very willing to do others a good turn, and doesn’t set out to bully or harm, others. But where exactly is this moral code coming from? From society? The entertainment industry? The media? A hodge-podge of causes she likes and her friends approve of? What happens when a new trendy thing comes along, will she change her mind to stay current, and tell everybody how her “thinking has evolved”?
You see, I have watched believers with unpopular views get a lot of crap for their stance on, say, abortion, but atheists never seem to have those problems. The atheists I know all seem to follow what Hollywood says and Oprah approves of.
Just my RL observation.
We aren’t born moral. We’re born with desires. We have to be taught morals by other people.
But let me say what I have observed.
A Catholic is serious about her faith. For various reasons, she has decided to follow the moral teachings of her religion. She learns everything she can about what the teachings are, and the reasoning behind it, and tries (although imperfectly because we are all sinners) to follow that code, even the difficult or unpopular teachings.
An atheist wants to be a good person. She’s friendly and affable, is very willing to do others a good turn, and doesn’t set out to bully or harm, others. But where exactly is this moral code coming from? From society? The entertainment industry? The media? A hodge-podge of causes she likes and her friends approve of? What happens when a new trendy thing comes along, will she change her mind to stay current, and tell everybody how her “thinking has evolved”?
You see, I have watched believers with unpopular views get a lot of crap for their stance on, say, abortion, but atheists never seem to have those problems. The atheists I know all seem to follow what Hollywood says and Oprah approves of.
Just my RL observation.
A
adgloriam
Guest
I know it’s not easy @Nap66, I hope Jesus will help you and send some sensible graces and the Holy Spirit may help you attain some of the spiritual fruits you are so in need of. God bless you.
C
Calliope
Guest
I belong to some atheist groups and forums with thousands of members and nope, hollywood and Oprah are not the basis of their world view. I’d say most would thing Oprah was a smart business woman but her pop psychology and pop spirituality are a real turn off.
The only common ground atheists have is they don’t believe there are deities, beyond that you will find people of every ilk, political stance, education level, etc.
Atheists aren’t plankton that go where the waves take them and follow the path of least resistance, they are people with life experiences, philosophies and ideas about how things should be, just like everyone else. The idea that a person can’t have a moral code unless it’s handed to them is strange. Thinking people can reason for themselves, and people can and do choose to do what is difficult and unpopular, even without the threat of eternal damnation.
You’d be surprised how much crap some people get simply because they don’t believe in any gods.
- Status