That idea was proposed over twenty years ago and was turned down flat because the Bishops said it would create artificial divisions in the Church and lead people to believe that the Pauline Rite was not the normative rite of the Church, but rather one of many.Actually, I’m not sure how it would work. Would your priest KNOW how to offer it? Maybe seperate parishes would be best, along the lines of ethnic parishes or parishes of different rites along side the Latin rite Pauline parishes.
It might be your opinion but I doubt very much that you know that priests hate the Latin Mass. Have you discussed this with those priests and they told you you they hate it? You have to very careful with strong statements like that.Amen. I completely agree.
A lot of people around here, even priests, have a strong HATE of the Traditional Latin Mass. (I don’t understand it. If you don’t like it, don’t celebrate it?)
But in the grander scheme of things, freeing the Latin Mass and uniting the SSPX could save tens of thousands of souls.
Not necessarilly…I don’t think that’s even possible. The old Papal Masses were filled with so much ceremony related to the Popes temporal power, (the sedia gestatoria, trumpet fanfares, tiaras, flabella) that the Pope could just ressurect the 1962 version of the papal Mass. He’s have to purge it of all the royal ceremony first.
I’m sure the Pope could whip something up if he wanted to, though I doubt he does. I would be an awesome gesture though, and would
The simple fact that many of them refuse to celebrate it or in the case of the Bishops even allow it in their Dioceses or severly restrict its celebration can only indicate one of four possible things.It might be your opinion but I doubt very much that you know that priests hate the Latin Mass. Have you discussed this with those priests and they told you you they hate it? You have to very careful with strong statements like that.
Actually the Indult is to be something to where the local bishop CANNOT prevent priests from saying the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. So no bishop could forbid it- they could complain to Rome concerning it but that is all they would be able to do.Even with this indult, we wouldn’t see anymore public celebrations of the Latin mass. He couls tell us we already have it.
Not everyone who would be appalled at this regression (the restoration of the sedia, the resumption of the tiara) hates the TLM. We really need to be careful to not paint with too broad a brush.Not necessarilly…
All the “old rubrics” for the Pontifical Solemn masses still are practiced by the FSSP and the SSPX- so that would be no big deal at all- unless you are an anti-TLM person who will be apalled at seeing His Holiness carried in all that fanfare. I cannot wait to see it all- and it will happen.
Ken
I think they’re are probably some who fit into all of the above categories, but then there are probably some who don’t think that resources and manpower are adequate for the number of requests that they have for the Tridentine. In my diocese, yes, there’s probably a need for it in Las Vegas (again, I’d love to see our bishop go retrieve the souls who are attending the SSPX chapel), but if five people in Tonopah or Beatty (tiny towns, but each with churches that share priests from other small towns) asked for it? My old bishop in the diocese of Gallup, NM, probably wouldn’t be able to respond to it for the same reason. The Archbishop of Santa Fe HAS an Indult where it’s been requested (Albuquerque), but it’s only one mass in a regular parish (there is an SSPX chapel there, but they have numerically small numbers). As far as I know, in the whole of that geographically rather large diocese, that’s it (and giving the Archbishop the benefit of the doubt, maybe that’s all that’s needed). We have bad apples in the epsicopacy, just as we do in the priesthood and laity, and have had in the papacy, and undoubtedly do in the diaconate, but I wouldn’t indict our bishops too broadly. If we were talking about specific ones, on the other hand, I’m sure the same names would pop out of both our mouths.The simple fact that many of them refuse to celebrate it or in the case of the Bishops even allow it in their Dioceses or severly restrict its celebration can only indicate one of four possible things.
1 They do hate it
2 They are afraid of it.
3 They see it as a threat to their autonomy
4 They feel it does not properly express modern worship of Christ
What else could it possibly be? I’m open for suggestions. And please, not the one about no Priests speaking Latin anymore. That is a relatively minor problem and Priests, many of whom are at least partially educated should be able to address that one very, very easily.
Actually I believe the decision to have the TLM would be up to either the pastor or any priest residing at the parish. And as I stated earlier the Bishop would not be able to restrict times and places as he now can do with the current indult.So theoretically speaking, I could find thirty people in my 800 family parish who want the Latin Mass there and then the Bishop and Pastor would have to provide it?
As nice as that is, I think our more liberal bishops might find a way of getting around that (ie. you get one Mass a week, on Saturdays at 3 pm.) Of course, it’s nice to see that the laity are being taken into consideration. If the MP simply “liberalized” the Mass, we’d still have to convince our parish priests to say it for us, which they wouldn’t unless they had to.
Theoretically.Actually I believe the decision to have the TLM would be up to either the pastor or any priest residing at the parish. And as I stated earlier the Bishop would not be able to restrict times and places as he now can do with the current indult.
Theoretically speaking you could have one priest and no lay people wanting the TLM at a parish and you could show up one day and have the TLM there. Any priest would be allowed to use the 1962 Missal regardless of what the common lay person in the pew wants.
Ken
I for one would love to see a return to papal fanfare. What I meant was that I don’t think it will happen. If the pope officially put an end to the sedia gestatoria and removed the tiara from the papal coat of arms, he’s not going to make use of them now.Not necessarilly…
All the “old rubrics” for the Pontifical Solemn masses still are practiced by the FSSP and the SSPX- so that would be no big deal at all- unless you are an anti-TLM person who will be apalled at seeing His Holiness carried in all that fanfare. I cannot wait to see it all- and it will happen.
Ken
You are missing the point. I was making a response to a specific comment by the poster. Some people may indeed hate a Latin Mass (I’m not one of them by the way) but I wouldn’t say that about a person, especially if they have not specifically told me that.The simple fact that many of them refuse to celebrate it or in the case of the Bishops even allow it in their Dioceses or severly restrict its celebration can only indicate one of four possible things.
1 They do hate it
2 They are afraid of it.
3 They see it as a threat to their autonomy
4 They feel it does not properly express modern worship of Christ
What else could it possibly be? I’m open for suggestions. And please, not the one about no Priests speaking Latin anymore. That is a relatively minor problem and Priests, many of whom are at least partially educated should be able to address that one very, very easily.
Actually, that’s not quite true. I believe the rumor about the Moto Propio states that a TLM will be able to be offered AS LONG AS a NO Mass is ALSO available. In other words, once a priest has fulfilled his obligation for one NO Mass, he can say the rest however he wants. If a single Mass is offered in a day, it MUST be a Novus Ordo.Actually I believe the decision to have the TLM would be up to either the pastor or any priest residing at the parish. And as I stated earlier the Bishop would not be able to restrict times and places as he now can do with the current indult.
Theoretically speaking you could have one priest and no lay people wanting the TLM at a parish and you could show up one day and have the TLM there. Any priest would be allowed to use the 1962 Missal regardless of what the common lay person in the pew wants.
Ken
Yes, I have.It might be your opinion but I doubt very much that you know that priests hate the Latin Mass. Have you discussed this with those priests and they told you you they hate it? You have to very careful with strong statements like that.
I guess I’m wondering about the word “hate” (though I certainly would never question your honesty. If you say you’ve heard it, out of their mouths as it were, then I would believe you in the absence of a good reason to disbelieve you, which I do not have). I’ve known lots of people who grew up with the TLM and much prefer the NO (the “English” mass, as they say). When asked, they will give their opinon.Yes, I have.
I have heard more than one priest say some nasty things about it. I even know of one priest who killed a vocation because the person was quite fond of the TLM. (Of course, our Bishop found out and has since asked this man to give it another go)I won’t give any details in case I am being stalked on here, but I have heard it from the horses mouth.
I must apologize. Hate wasn’t the EXACT word I have heard, however using the reasonable man theory I can conclude that “hate” is their sentiments. (And by using a thesaurus)I guess I’m wondering about the word “hate” (though I certainly would never question your honesty. If you say you’ve heard it, out of their mouths as it were, then I would believe you in the absence of a good reason to disbelieve you, which I do not have). I’ve known lots of people who grew up with the TLM and much prefer the NO (the “English” mass, as they say). When asked, they will give their opinon.
I have no doubt there are those who grew up under the Traditional Mass who prefer the Pauline Mass. There are also many of us who grew up under it who both loved it and yearned for its return. I also know that many who criticize the Traditional Mass have never been to one or if they have they have gone once or twice, I would imagine with.a totally pre meditated mindset. I have seen posters on this very forum refer to Priests at a Traditional Mass as “Mindless mimes going through the motions at the altar”I guess I’m wondering about the word “hate” (though I certainly would never question your honesty. If you say you’ve heard it, out of their mouths as it were, then I would believe you in the absence of a good reason to disbelieve you, which I do not have). I’ve known lots of people who grew up with the TLM and much prefer the NO (the “English” mass, as they say). When asked, they will give their opinon.
In Thistle’s defense, however, there is a LOT of exageration (presumably for dramatic effect) on these forums and you hear a lot of hysterical “they HATE the Mass of the Ages!” when anyone ventures even a slight critique (oddly enough, the same people feel free to heap abuse on the NO Mass, ie, “you can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig” in refering to this rite), etc. Just as you say you’ve heard priest who hate or dislike the TLM, so I’ve seen this exageration. That may be why Thistle’s views the claim about hating the TLM with a jaundiced eye.
That same bishop told me I would be “in schism” if I left the borders of his diocese to attend a Tridentine Mass elsewhere (i.e., the neighboring diocese where there was a daily Tridentine Mass) while still residing in his territory. He said I needed to move across the border or else attend my territorial parish.
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Isn’t that a violation of canon law anyway? We aren’t restricted to our territorial parishes.
The same types of people heap scorn on the Pauline Mass (indeed, some cannot conceive that there are those of us, orthodox Catholics, not Joanie Chichester/Thomas Gumbleton types, that love the NO). So hatred runs both ways. You’re right, I have to watch my attitude toward the TLM so as not to allow my views on it to be colored by some of its devotees and proponents.I have no doubt there are those who grew up under the Traditional Mass who prefer the Pauline Mass. There are also many of us who grew up under it who both loved it and yearned for its return. I also know that many who criticize the Traditional Mass have never been to one or if they have they have gone once or twice, I would imagine with.a totally pre meditated mindset. I have seen posters on this very forum refer to Priests at a Traditional Mass as “Mindless mimes going through the motions at the altar”
You tell me what that is if not hatred
I also know that there is a lot of antipathy at the clerical level towards the Traditional Mass. Why? I don’t really know, but it is obvious and apparent and has been there for as long time.