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Starwarsfan2
Guest
There are not fourth five thousand and we are not apostates.
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Duane1966
Guest
I think there are many more.
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benjamindt
Guest
When I use the term apostasy I refer to its definition:
“The abandonment or renunciation of a religious belief or principle”
In my estimation, if someone rejects or renounces the catholic church, that is apostasy.
I didn’t mean it in a rude way, only in a logical and truthful definitive way, as I see it, that anyone who rejects the catholic church is an apostate of the Church.
I don’t intimate that you reject Christ as savior or that you reject God as creator, only that you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Perhaps my understanding of the term is flawed, but feelings aside, I don’t see how I’m using it wrong or unjustifiably.
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Stars,
As you know, the Roman Catholic Church holds roughly 51% of Christendom. The Eastern Orthodox contains roughly 20%. Protestantism amounts to about 29%. As we have seen here on this thread, a good estimate for Lutheranism is about 80 million, which would be about 3.6% of the total.
Do you really think it would be equitable for this supposed council to have as many Lutheran representatives as Catholic? Would it be ‘fair’ that the Catholics would be ‘underrepresented’, proportionally, at this Council by a factor of 14?
God Bless You Stars, Topper
I think that your proposal offers us an opportunity to discuss the actual problems of such an Ecumenical Council.
As you know, the Roman Catholic Church holds roughly 51% of Christendom. The Eastern Orthodox contains roughly 20%. Protestantism amounts to about 29%. As we have seen here on this thread, a good estimate for Lutheranism is about 80 million, which would be about 3.6% of the total.
Do you really think it would be equitable for this supposed council to have as many Lutheran representatives as Catholic? Would it be ‘fair’ that the Catholics would be ‘underrepresented’, proportionally, at this Council by a factor of 14?
God Bless You Stars, Topper
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
" Protestantism" numbers 960 million as of mid 2015 , Roman Catholism is 1.25 billion and Orthodox Catholicism/ Eastern Orthodoxy is 300 million , so might want to check the percent again .
Keep the faith Topper, Stawrwars
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Stars,
Thanks for your response.
Of the 2.51 billion Christians, 49.8% are Roman Catholic, 38.2% are Protestants, and 11.9% are EOs. With the Lutherans being 80 million, they are 3.1% of the total. **Do you really think that Lutherans should have the same number of voting delegates as Roman Catholicism is allowed? **This would mean that Lutherans would be ‘overrepresented’ statistically vs. Catholics, by a factor of 16.
**In addition, do you believe that the Lutheran, Anglican, and Reformed denominations should have 60% of the total votes while holding only 38% of Christianity? **
God Bless You Stars, Topper
Thanks for your response.
OK, for the purpose of this discussion, let’s use your statistics and I will repose my question using your numbers.
Of the 2.51 billion Christians, 49.8% are Roman Catholic, 38.2% are Protestants, and 11.9% are EOs. With the Lutherans being 80 million, they are 3.1% of the total. **Do you really think that Lutherans should have the same number of voting delegates as Roman Catholicism is allowed? **This would mean that Lutherans would be ‘overrepresented’ statistically vs. Catholics, by a factor of 16.
**In addition, do you believe that the Lutheran, Anglican, and Reformed denominations should have 60% of the total votes while holding only 38% of Christianity? **
God Bless You Stars, Topper
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
I like the proportional representation idea ,of yours ( did we agree on something
) it’s easier and efficient , my first suggestion was my rough idea , anyway would the oriental orthodox be invited ? If yes then it would look like this :fifth/ninth/eighth/twenty second ecumenical council .
Roman Catholic 47.9
The " Protestant" churches 37.4
Orthodox Catholic 11.6
Oriental Orthodox 3.1
So my next question would be , gender , would there be a quota of no less than 40% or something like it?
And Somebody Text the pope the council idea .
(As a side note Lutheran estimates range as high as 90 million )
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Here_For_Donuts
Guest
The way to Christian unity seems a road impossible to navigate. My immediate suggestion is to first show the Protestants the error of their ways, thus eliminating heresy and leaving only apostolic Christianity.
Unity can only be solved from the bottom up. It’s a matter of converting heretics and schismatics to the true Church.
My advice to the Pope: Stop hanging out with politicians, pagans and heretics, and stand up for correct doctrine!
The main reason why I don’t become Catholic is because it seems like the church wants to embrace all religions. I honestly don’t believe St Paul would have bowed to an idol like a modern pope does.
Unity can only be solved from the bottom up. It’s a matter of converting heretics and schismatics to the true Church.
My advice to the Pope: Stop hanging out with politicians, pagans and heretics, and stand up for correct doctrine!
The main reason why I don’t become Catholic is because it seems like the church wants to embrace all religions. I honestly don’t believe St Paul would have bowed to an idol like a modern pope does.
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Duane1966
Guest
Where have I heard this before? Oh yes, the Pharisees confronting Jesus.
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MaryT777
Guest
I will text the Pope tonight the council idea and will propose myself as secretary of minutes to take notes of it all.I like the proportional representation idea ,of yours ( did we agree on something
fifth/ninth/eighth/twenty second ecumenical council .
Roman Catholic 47.9
The " Protestant" churches 37.4
Orthodox Catholic 11.6
Oriental Orthodox 3.1
So my next question would be , gender , would there be a quota of no less than 40% or something like it?
And Somebody Text the pope the council idea .
(As a side note Lutheran estimates range as high as 90 million )
Mary.
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Topper17
Guest
Hi Stars,
Thanks for your response.
On the other hand, I would presume that there is going to be a’ problem’ in apportioning the 37.4% (or whatever) of the Protestant delegates.
As an example, what percentage of the delegates would the various American Lutheran communions receive, and would that percentage be acceptable?
Do you expect that all of the Protestant groups are going to commit, going into the Council, and PLEDGE that they will abide with the Holy Spirit led decisions of the Council on matters of doctrine? Even if those decisions go significantly against their existing beliefs?
BTW, It seems that you have me at a disadvantage. I am known here as a Roman Catholic. Could you tell me which Lutheran Communion you belong to?
However, remember, if everybody agrees going in that they will abide with the Holy Spirit led decisions of the Holy Spirit, then what happens if the Spirit leads the Council to eliminate women Priests and Bishops?
Actually, the 80 million number came from Jon. I have seen numbers lower than 80.
God Bless You Stars, Topper
Thanks for your response.
First of all – of course, ALL Christians should be represented at the Council proportional to their percentage of Christendom overall.I like the proportional representation idea ,of yours ( did we agree on something
fifth/ninth/eighth/twenty second ecumenical council .
For the purposes of this discussion, I have accepted your numbers. We Roman Catholics are not going to have a problem in assigning our 47.9 (or whatever) percent of the delegates. I would assume that the delegates would receive their assignments from the Bishop of Rome.
On the other hand, I would presume that there is going to be a’ problem’ in apportioning the 37.4% (or whatever) of the Protestant delegates.
As an example, what percentage of the delegates would the various American Lutheran communions receive, and would that percentage be acceptable?
Do you expect that all of the Protestant groups are going to commit, going into the Council, and PLEDGE that they will abide with the Holy Spirit led decisions of the Council on matters of doctrine? Even if those decisions go significantly against their existing beliefs?
BTW, It seems that you have me at a disadvantage. I am known here as a Roman Catholic. Could you tell me which Lutheran Communion you belong to?
I don’t think that that would be a problem. My personal preference would be no transgendered delegates, but then that just shows how ridiculously old fashioned I am.
However, remember, if everybody agrees going in that they will abide with the Holy Spirit led decisions of the Holy Spirit, then what happens if the Spirit leads the Council to eliminate women Priests and Bishops?
First of all, I can take care of communicating this groundbreaking proposal to the Bishop of Rome. Through our ‘chain of command’ of course. How about you take care of informing Protestantism and getting their buy in. Maybe your first task would be in getting all of Lutheranism to agree to attend and to change their doctrinal beliefs, IF, inexplicably, the other 96% of Christianity doesn’t agree with Lutheran beliefs.And Somebody Text the pope the council idea .
(As a side note Lutheran estimates range as high as 90 million )
Actually, the 80 million number came from Jon. I have seen numbers lower than 80.
God Bless You Stars, Topper
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chimo
Guest
Perhaps this is what God and the Church is waiting for, an Ecumenical Council to settle things once and for all. It will be probably be convened with the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch with the approval of all other Patriarchs to give this council its authority to define the Church towards its unifying goal. It needs the approval of the Pope and all the Eastern Patriarchs together. It will come when better informed Christians from both East and West want it. It cannot be convened by only the Pope unless the Eastern Patriarchs give their consent as well. No Ecumenical Council cannot be convened unless it is by both Eastern and Western authorities. The Orthodox will not allow it until they have been given their authority to participate into it with the same authority as they had in those earlier Ecumenical Councils.
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Here_For_Donuts
Guest
I wasn’t raised in a religious family. When I was a kid and saw Pope John Paul II on TV with leaders of pagan religions, my first thought was that the pope believes in all religions. I honestly believed this about Catholics until I read up on Christianity. I could never understand how the leader of Christianity could publicly bow to the idols when early Christians were killed for not doing that same thing.
My point is that seeing the pope–the man who’s allegedly the vanguard of truth–do something so wrong scandalized me and probably does so to a lot of other people.
Look at how the media talk about Pope Francis as if he’s going to “change the church.”
I just can’t comprehend why it’s so terrible to want to stand for the truth. Is it because the popes today are afraid of looking mean? I don’t get it. Didn’t Jesus warn about lukewarm people?
There have been sitting popes who’ve done wicked things. We all like to think such a pope can never be elected in “modern times,” but aren’t there Catholic prophecies that talk about how there will be evil in the Vatican and even a heretical pope will be elected? In pretty sure at least two such private revelations are approved by the Vatican. The prophecy says that the pope and church leaders at that time will introduce a false Christianity into the Church.
Now, I’m not saying that Francis is such a pope, but how does a Catholic explain this video?
veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2015/05/27/pope-francis-it-may-be-a-heresy-but-i-agree-with-the-devil-that-all-christians-are-one/
Is it possible that there is a heretical pope on the throne right now? Francis is on record for having publicly endorsed doctrinally incorrect ideas in the years before becoming pope.
According to Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio, by Pope Paul IV, February 15, 1559:
If ever at any time it becomes clear that any Bishop or likewise any Roman Pontiff before his promotion or elevation as a Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, had strayed from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy, then his promotion or elevation shall be null, invalid, and void, and they themselves who are thus promoted and assumed by that very fact, without any further declaration to be made, are deprived of every dignity, place, honor, title, authority, function and power.
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
I second thatI trust you.
Jon
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SyroMalankara
Guest
My first thought as a child in seeing an Eastern bishop was that he was Santa… But I got older and wiser… And studied with an open mind that Catholics and Orthodox aren’t as was claimed by protestants I was acquainted with growing up. Guess what, I was ignorant as a kid even though raised in both Apostolic and non Apostolic Churches. When I became a man, I put away childish things.
Besides if you were raised nonreligious as you claim, why would that be perceived as wrong? It seems an entirely American evangelical viewpoint for someone raised so irreligious.
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benjamindt
Guest
I don’t understand the point of ecumenical councils. We can’t bring people into the Church by compromising with protestant theologies, and they never will.
What’s the point of having it if protestants aren’t willing to reject the division and come to the table as a member of the Church in the first place?
In my mind, the number of votes for non-catholics should be 0. There is no compromise where truth is concerned and I don’t understand why people think the Catholic Church needs to compromise its beliefs to bring others back in. The problem is not the Catholic Church but the apostasy of Protestantism.
What’s the point of having it if protestants aren’t willing to reject the division and come to the table as a member of the Church in the first place?
In my mind, the number of votes for non-catholics should be 0. There is no compromise where truth is concerned and I don’t understand why people think the Catholic Church needs to compromise its beliefs to bring others back in. The problem is not the Catholic Church but the apostasy of Protestantism.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Ecumenical Councils are not about protestants, its about the world (ecumene) bishops of the church meeting together
And you shouldn’t compromise. Neither should confessional Lutherans. Compromise would lead to a false unity. Unity would come from convergence, not compromise. Dialogue takes the ability to discuss what is believed, and allowing the Spirit to move us together.
So, when you say Catholicism cannot compromise, or Lutherans say we can’t compromise, both are correct, but both are missing the point, ISTM.
The division is not one-sided. Even the Catholic Catechism recognizes blame on both sides. From this side of the Tiber, and with all due respect, this attitude seems a significant barrier to ecumenism. And guess what, there are some on our side with the same attitude.
From all I can gather, the bolded part of your statement is in direct contradiction to Catholic teaching:
Jon
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Thanks for insulting about 37-38 percent of Christs Church ( note the last two words)
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