ECFs/Heaven/Keys

[JacktheCatholic]

I need some help and came here hoping someone could help me find a writing from the ECfs where it mentions the Keys given to Peter where the other Apostles shared in their power and that Peter’s authority trascended the others in terms of the levels in Heaven where Peter’s Keys allowed him authority at a higher level in Heaven.

 

[uxordepp]

There might be something here to help you.

americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/ecfpapacy.htm

 

[WorkerPriest]

St. John Chrysostom, an early father respected in both the East and the West, discusses this to some extent in his homily on Matthew 14. Nicene Fathers, Volume 10, pages 332 and following.

However, you may find that this great doctor of the undivided Church, reflects the patristic tradition that the keys were given equally to all the Apostolic band, and that the primacy ascribed to Peter is relative to his confession of Christ.

Also, since we’re in the Sacred Scripture thread, once can compare the discussion of Christ and the Keys in Matthew with a similar passage in John. Where Peter speaks for all the Apostles collectively in Matthew’s account, and then receives singularly for them all the Keys… we find Jesus giving the Keys collectively to all the Apostles in John’s Gospel.

Hope that helps. Grace and peace to you.

 

[DPMartin]

St. John Chrysostom, an early father respected in both the East and the West, discusses this to some extent in his homily on Matthew 14. Nicene Fathers, Volume 10, pages 332 and following.

However, you may find that this great doctor of the undivided Church, reflects the patristic tradition that the keys were given equally to all the Apostolic band, and that the primacy ascribed to Peter is relative to his confession of Christ.

Also, since we’re in the Sacred Scripture thread, once can compare the discussion of Christ and the Keys in Matthew with a similar passage in John. Where Peter speaks for all the Apostles collectively in Matthew’s account, and then receives singularly for them all the Keys… we find Jesus giving the Keys collectively to all the Apostles in John’s Gospel.

Hope that helps. Grace and peace to you.

WorkerPriest

Though I have not read anything from St. John Chrysostom, and I apologize for not doing so, but if I may. Just what exactly are the keys that were given?

 

[MarcoPolo]

It may take some time to browse all these references, but here is a search of ECF docs at New Advent for works that include the words “Peter” Keys" and “heaven”.

 

[NotWorthy]

Also, since we’re in the Sacred Scripture thread, once can compare the discussion of Christ and the Keys in Matthew with a similar passage in John. Where Peter speaks for all the Apostles collectively in Matthew’s account, and then receives singularly for them all the Keys… we find Jesus giving the Keys collectively to all the Apostles in John’s Gospel.

Where do we find the keys collectively given to all in John’s Gospel?

 

[NotWorthy]

St. John Chrysostom, an early father respected in both the East and the West, discusses this to some extent in his homily on Matthew 14. Nicene Fathers, Volume 10, pages 332 and following.

However, you may find that this great doctor of the undivided Church, reflects the patristic tradition that the keys were given equally to all the Apostolic band, and that the primacy ascribed to Peter is relative to his confession of Christ.

I think we can go a lot earlier than what, the 8th century?, to find some Church Fathers attributing the keys to Peter.

 

[NotWorthy]

St. John Chrysostom, an early father respected in both the East and the West, discusses this to some extent in his homily on Matthew 14. Nicene Fathers, Volume 10, pages 332 and following.

However, you may find that this great doctor of the undivided Church, reflects the patristic tradition that the keys were given equally to all the Apostolic band, and that the primacy ascribed to Peter is relative to his confession of Christ.

I find this statement odd, for St. John Chrysostom states in his homily on Acts 15, “See how Paul speak after Peter, and no one restrains: James waits and starts not up, for he (Peter) it was to whom had been entrusted the government (primacy)” (Acts of the Apostles, Homily 33 in Berington and Kirk, "Faith of Catholics, 2:34).

 

[NotWorthy]

St. John Chrysostom, an early father respected in both the East and the West, discusses this to some extent in his homily on Matthew 14. Nicene Fathers, Volume 10, pages 332 and following.

However, you may find that this great doctor of the undivided Church, reflects the patristic tradition that the keys were given equally to all the Apostolic band, and that the primacy ascribed to Peter is relative to his confession of Christ.

Hmmmm…, I look at John Chrysostom’s Homily 54, which is on Matthew 16, and he says this:

I would fain inquire then of those who desire to lessen the dignity of the Son, which manner of gifts were greater, those which the Father gave to Peter, or those which the Son gave him? For the Father gave to Peter the revelation of the Son; but the Son gave him to sow that of the Father and that of Himself in every part of the world; **and to a mortal man **He entrusted the authority over all things in Heaven, giving him the keys; who extended the church to every part of the world, and declared it to be stronger than heaven. For heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. Matthew 24:35 How then is He less, who has given such gifts, has effected such things?

From these two quotes, I would consider St. John Chrysostom in the camp of “The keys were given to Peter” among the Church Fathers.

 

[NoelFitz]

I have looked up ECF and found European Cyclist (Cultural, Chess) Federation.

However if it means the Early Church Fathers I am surprised that the Vatican (Church) does not use this power more often to adapt to modern times.

It may also me called the* “Power of the Keys” *and it gives the Church freedom to do essentially what it wants to do “Whatever you shall bind on earth is shall be bound also in heaven…”.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have looked up ECF and found European Cyclist (Cultural, Chess) Federation.

However if it means the Early Church Fathers I am surprised that the Vatican (Church) does not use this power more often to adapt to modern times.

I don’t understand what you mean by this statement. It is other churches that “adapt to modern times”. One of the things I like about the Church is that She is so hesitant to “adapt to modern times”.

It may also me called the* “Power of the Keys” *and it gives the Church freedom to do essentially what it wants to do “Whatever you shall bind on earth is shall be bound also in heaven…”.

Noel, don’t take this wrong, but I’m glad you aren’t Pope.

 

[NoelFitz]

NW

many thanks for your post.

I admire your contributions here, as they are always solid, constructive and uplifting.

May I put your mind at rest I will never be Pope?

But the Church has to adapt to modern times.

Please look at http://newtownparkparish.com/ and you will see how our parish, with its wonderful team if priests, lives in the modern world.

 

[WorkerPriest]

The power to forgive and retain sins.

WorkerPriest

Though I have not read anything from St. John Chrysostom, and I apologize for not doing so, but if I may. Just what exactly are the keys that were given?

 

[WorkerPriest]

No doubt, friend, that St. Chrysostom in his homily on Matthew 14, refers to the giving of the Keys to St. Peter. However, earlier in this same homily, he notes that St. Peter speaks as the “leader of the apostolic choir,” and that the Church to be built is not upon St. Peter per se, but “on the faith of his confession” that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

I would dare not argue that the Keys were not given to St. Peter, nor suggest that St. Chrysostom speaks otherwise. But only that the Keys were also given to the other Apostles, not by St. Peter, but by Christ Himself, as evidenced in John’s Gospel. Cf. Vol 14, page 325 ff. The power to forgive and retain sins is given to the whole Apostolic choir by Christ, and through them to their successors (hence the validity of the Sacraments in the other Apostolic churches, even those not fully united to Rome.)

Blessings to you.

Hmmmm…, I look at John Chrysostom’s Homily 54, which is on Matthew 16, and he says this:

From these two quotes, I would consider St. John Chrysostom in the camp of “The keys were given to Peter” among the Church Fathers.

 

[NotWorthy]

The power to forgive and retain sins.

The power of the keys are in reference to binding and loosing - this was an authority that the Pharisees and Sadducee had - although they tended to abuse it. The authority to forgive and retain sins is implied in this, but it is explicit in John 20.

But the authority to bind and loose was something that was well known in ancient Judah. Often rival Pharisaic Rabbi’s would use this authority in opposition to one another. On one day, one rabbi would declare that all Jews needed to do one thing to be clean. The next day, an opposing rabbi would declare that the new rule was unnecessary. This went on quite often in 1st century Judah.

Hence, the Jewish Apostles would know full well what Jesus was saying.

 

[NotWorthy]

NW

many thanks for your post.

I admire your contributions here, as they are always solid, constructive and uplifting.

May I put your mind at rest I will never be Pope?

But the Church has to adapt to modern times.

Please look at http://newtownparkparish.com/ and you will see how our parish, with its wonderful team if priests, lives in the modern world.

Noel, I need to apologize. Too often churches that “adapt to modern times” are often found drifting away from the True Teaching of Christ. Abortion, Contraception, and Divorce are examples. These changes are not so much “adapting to modern times” as they are “bowing to the pressure of the flock”.

For that reason, “adapting to modern times” has left a sour taste in my mouth.

I should have been more open-minded and inquired what you meant before pouncing on you.

But the Church doesn’t have the commission to “do whatever she pleases”. She has the authority to do it, but not the commission.

 

[NoelFitz]

In Mt 16 I do not read explicitly about forgiving sins.

In the NRSV I read:

17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Mt 16:17–19.

Here Jesus gives Rocky Johnson (as a priest in our parish calls Peter) general power to bind and loose, which is essentially to run the Church. Thus the papacy has great freedom of action.

 

[NotWorthy]

I would dare not argue that the Keys were not given to St. Peter, nor suggest that St. Chrysostom speaks otherwise. But only that the Keys were also given to the other Apostles, not by St. Peter, but by Christ Himself, as evidenced in John’s Gospel. Cf. Vol 14, page 325 ff. The power to forgive and retain sins is given to the whole Apostolic choir by Christ, and through them to their successors (hence the validity of the Sacraments in the other Apostolic churches, even those not fully united to Rome.)

Blessings to you.

I’m still not sure that you could equate the keys of authority with the authority to forgive and retain. The reason being Isaiah 22. The keys of the Kingdom were given to Hilkiah alone, the “Prime Minister” of the Kingdom of Judea.

A similar example is with Joseph, when he was made Grand Vizier of Egypt, although he was given a signet ring as a sign of authority.

 

[NotWorthy]

In Mt 16 I do not read explicitly about forgiving sins.

In the NRSV I read:

Here Jesus gives Rocky Johnson (as a priest in our parish calls Peter) general power to bind and loose, which is essentially to run the Church. Thus the papacy has great freedom of action.

AgapeBibleStudy.Com explains the Church’s position on “binding and loosing” as this:

This authority is verified with the “binding and loosing” that Jesus gives to the Apostles, and then through them on to the Church. The authority to “bind and loose” as understood by the Jewish rabbi’s who had this authority in the Mosaic Covenant was three-fold:

1. It is the authority to make rules binding on the faithful and to release rules from their binding.
2. It is the authority to exclude or include members of the religious community.
3. It is also the authority to forgive and remit sins.

 

[WorkerPriest]

This may be a difference of emphasis for Lutherans. The Keys are understood in a heavenly, sacramental sense, not like that which was given to the Jews in their political establishment. I’m not aware of an Old Testament reference where the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven are given to anyone, where they are expressly given authority to forgive and retain sins in such a way that what is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and what is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. That peculiar gift is something Christ alone gives, by virtue of His work on the cross, in which He takes the sins of the world onto Himself. Even the Old Testament prophets only speak what they have been expressly given to speak.

I apologize, that I cannot perceive the references you draw in Isaiah 22-- this seems clearly to be speaking of a restoration of a righteous king after the fall of an evil king. And as for Joseph, he clearly is a type of Christ to come, but in his functioning in Egypt, he only forgives his brothers for what they have done to him… not all their sins before God.

Lutherans see the Keys as explicitly defined by Christ when He gives them, and that’s how we tend to reflect upon them. This is how I read the Fathers to discuss them, too.

Grace and peace to you.

I’m still not sure that you could equate the keys of authority with the authority to forgive and retain. The reason being Isaiah 22. The keys of the Kingdom were given to Hilkiah alone, the “Prime Minister” of the Kingdom of Judea.

A similar example is with Joseph, when he was made Grand Vizier of Egypt, although he was given a signet ring as a sign of authority.