Ecumenical Plans for 500th Reformation Day

[SteveVH]

But Lutherans should also celebrate (amongst ourselves) as well - for if there’s nothing to celebrate, if there is nothing good about our continuation of (what we feel) historic Christianity, then this whole adventure is for nothing.

This is understandable, once one has chosen to walk down that road. It is human nature to justify our beliefs and actions.

 

[benjohnson]

With what posture should Catholics join in this “commemoration”?

If I was Catholic, I too would lament the loss of unity and reach out to others, but you have other things to celebrate as well - the counter-reformation, the preaching the Gospel to the corners of the world, and the string of great Popes that make our Lutheran objections seem quaint among other things.

For our little church, for 2017 we’re organising a constructive way to interact with our Catholic friends in mutual love and recognition of our common struggle to proclaim the Gospel to a broken world in.

Among our congregations, we’re looking to build each others church up. Both our church’s are in need of repair, so a combined work party would be good solidarity.

 

[Contarini]

I think it would be easy to hang our head and wring our hands about the situation - our division is lamentable and not what God would have us do

But Lutherans should also celebrate (amongst ourselves) as well - for if there’s nothing to celebrate, if there is nothing good about our continuation of (what we feel) historic Christianity, then this whole adventure is for nothing.

So a little of both.

We should constructively embrace out Catholic Christian brothers and sisters and repent of the sins we have committed - but we should also celebrate the sacrifices, hard work, martyrdom, and exile in the hope of proclaiming the Gospel.

It’s reasonable for your to celebrate if you really think that Lutheranism is an authentic continuation of historic Christianity in its orthodox fullness.

It is only with the utmost exertion of my powers of empathy and imagination that I can understand why intelligent and devout people believe (as many clearly do, including yourself) that this is the case. To me it seems abundantly clear both theologically and historically that such claims are empty. Luther’s teaching on sola fide is an innovation, if there has ever been an innovation. He broke radically with Augustine’s teaching while vaguely claiming Augustine’s mantle. His teaching is pastorally powerful but exegetically dubious at the very best.

Edwin

 

[SteveVH]

If I was Catholic, I too would lament the loss of unity and reach out to others, but you have other things to celebrate as well - the counter-reformation, the preaching the Gospel to the corners of the world, and the string of great Popes that make our Lutheran objections seem quaint among other things.

For our little church, for 2017 we’re organising a constructive way to interact with our Catholic friends in mutual love and recognition of our common struggle to proclaim the Gospel to a broken world in.

Among our congregations, we’re looking to build each others church up. Both our church’s are in need of repair, so a combined work party would be good solidarity.

Thanks, Ben.

 

[benjohnson]

His teaching is pastorally powerful but exegetically dubious at the very best.

Edwin

Edwin, it’s awesome to see you back here in CAF with your intelligence, grace, and wisdom.

My pastor would love the last line in your post - for him Lutheranism is definitely a church rooted in the mud and not in the lofts of a cathedral among the angels.

For him, being a pastor is all about being pastorally powerful for those that are week and are struggling to find the cross - he has a running joke with me that when I ask a rather difficult theological question he gives me an good answer (he does know Greek, Latin, and Hebrew and reads volumes and has an almost eidetic memory) and then commends me to go sit in the pew to face the cross like a penitent should.

If you come into our church, you’re apt to find him unclogging a drain and covered in bits of sewer or find him fixing the furnace. Or not… he’ll be at the hospital or visiting shut-ins.

That if you chose to level the same accusation on him as you do to Luther, that his highly trained and exercised exegesis is easily dismissed over being pastoral powerful would make him quite content.

 

[benjohnson]

So you’re not coming to my big party for the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther being excommunicated?

Thanks for the invite!

I’ll bring the beer and cigars, but is it ok if I bring a fire-extinguisher just in case just in case some cigar ash accidentally drops on that big bundle of wood you have there?

 

[Stilldreamn]

The “beer and cigars” made me smile. When we were in Wittenberg, we attended the English Ministry’s Vespers service in the Corpus Christi Chapel (next to the Stadtkirche) and afterward stayed to chat for a bit. The pastor asked about our travels and eventually grinned and said, “OK, which do you miss most - pizza or burgers?” My son cheerfully exclaimed “BURGERS” and we were directed to a tiny cafe off the main square named

(wait for it)

**Witten Burger Bar **!

I predict they will do a rousing business with American tourists in 2017.

 

[Contarini]

Edwin, it’s awesome to see you back here in CAF with your intelligence, grace, and wisdom.

My pastor would love the last line in your post - for him Lutheranism is definitely a church rooted in the mud and not in the lofts of a cathedral among the angels.

For him, being a pastor is all about being pastorally powerful for those that are week and are struggling to find the cross - he has a running joke with me that when I ask a rather difficult theological question he gives me an good answer (he does know Greek, Latin, and Hebrew and reads volumes and has an almost eidetic memory) and then commends me to go sit in the pew to face the cross like a penitent should.

If you come into our church, you’re apt to find him unclogging a drain and covered in bits of sewer or find him fixing the furnace. Or not… he’ll be at the hospital or visiting shut-ins.

That if you chose to level the same accusation on him as you do to Luther, that his highly trained and exercised exegesis is easily dismissed over being pastoral powerful would make him quite content.

Lutheran exegesis is very learned. But I find the “New Perspective” on Paul fairly compelling, and even if they are wrong, the mere existence of the New Perspective, and the adherence to it of evangelical scholars such as N. T. Wright, makes the basic claims of classical Protestantism highly suspect. It seems to me that for classical Protestantism in either of its confessional forms to be true, the exegetical evidence for the key points separating Catholics from Protestants has to be overwhelming.

Your pastor sounds like a holy man and a faithful shepherd–you are very blessed to have him.

Please don’t get me wrong–I think Christianity would be much poorer without Lutheranism. It has a rich, earthy flavor, like really good dark chocolate. But to justify the division of the visible Church, Lutheranism (and/or Protestantism more broadly, but you and I probably agree on most of the things wrong with other forms of Protestantism) has to be more than just one valuable flavor of Christianity. If I’m right, then the valuable pastoral and theological (and, yes, exegetical!) insights of Lutheranism have a legitimate place within the Catholic spectrum, but need some correction and are certainly not themselves the Gospel.

Edwin

 

[JonNC]

I’m not talking about Lutherans.

I understand that. What I’m saying is that, among non-Lutheran protestants, Reformation Day is usually not a big deal.

Jon

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I understand that. What I’m saying is that, among non-Lutheran protestants, Reformation Day is usually not a big deal.

Jon

It is for some, who seem to appreciate more than say Christmas or Easter, those vile pagan holidays.

 

[JonNC]

It is for some, who seem to appreciate more than say Christmas or Easter, those vile pagan holidays.

Odd, then, isn’t it, as Luther put so much stock in them.

Jon

 

[pablope]

Commemoration is not celebration.

A commemoration is a celebration of some sort…it falls under the umbrella of celebrations…albeit, a different kind of celebration.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Odd, then, isn’t it, as Luther put so much stock in them.

Jon

Never said otherwise.

 

[pablope]

I think it would be easy to hang our head and wring our hands about the situation - our division is lamentable and not what God would have us do

What do you think should be done to mend this division/

But Lutherans should also celebrate (amongst ourselves) as well - for if there’s nothing to celebrate, if there is nothing good about our continuation of (what we feel) historic Christianity, then this whole adventure is for nothing.

 

[pablope]

If I was Catholic, I too would lament the loss of unity and reach out to others, but you have other things to celebrate as well - the counter-reformation, the preaching the Gospel to the corners of the world,

But the CC has been doing this even before the Reformation…sending missionaries to the corners of the world.

and the string of great Popes that make our Lutheran objections seem quaint among other things.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

As a Lutheran with a strong Catholic identity, I have no regrets over the celebration of the Reformation though the feast day isn’t generally as celebratory as it was when I was a kid. Lutherans believe that Martin Luther was called by God to reform the holy Church just as any Christian would do when faced with corruption. The 95 Theses addressed the practice of purchasing indulgences as a way to avoid confession and absolution; it was so contrary to the Gospel that Lutherans left the Roman Catholic church and took nearly half of Europe with them [when including other Reformers].

 

[benjohnson]

What do you think should be done to mend this division/

Personally - dialog and encouraging my Lutheran, Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox friends.

Historic Christianity? Does this include disobeying bishops, splitting altars…calling someone anti Christ?

Careful! It not just Lutherans that have sinned over the last 500 years.

Well…Ben…do you think it stops at repenting only? Or is there something more beyond repenting?

After repenting? Of course there’s something more than that! Grace!

 

[Peter_J]

Please don’t get me wrong–I think Christianity would be much poorer without Lutheranism. It has a rich, earthy flavor, like really good dark chocolate. **But to justify the division of the visible Church, Lutheranism (and/or Protestantism more broadly, but you and I probably agree on most of the things wrong with other forms of Protestantism) has to be more than just one valuable flavor of Christianity. **If I’m right, then the valuable pastoral and theological (and, yes, exegetical!) insights of Lutheranism have a legitimate place within the Catholic spectrum, but need some correction and are certainly not themselves the Gospel.

Edwin

Now what about maintaining division by insisting on ordaining women to the priesthood?

 

[SteveVH]

Lutherans believe that Martin Luther was called by God to reform the holy Church just as any Christian would do when faced with corruption.

Instead of reforming it, however, he divided it.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Instead of reforming it, however, he divided it.

One’s perspective may differ. But per the document, Lutherans wanted to remain under the supervision of the bishops in Germany but only if the reforms were allowed including taking communion in both kinds [Host and Cup]. In much of northern Europe, the bishops agreed and Lutheranism became the official Church.