Ecumenism-Why the Euphoria and what is the Gain for Catholics?

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Exporter:
NAV Bible which is used in our Masses. In several cases they refuse to use the word “God” - they substituted “Creator”.
We don’t use the NAV (there’s no such thing; someone may be thinking of the American Standard Version or the New American Standard Version) in our Masses – we use the NAB (New American Bible). These are entirely different versions. The orignal thread, however, addressed “The New Testament and Psalms: A New Inclusive Translation”" which is yet another translation, not used by the Catholic Church for her liturgies. Several people have explained this to CrusaderNY but he doesn’t seem to want to correct his error since he has continued to make the same mistake in other posts. This is just an example of the type of easily refuted error that Contarini was talking about.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon Ed:
We don’t use the NAV (there’s no such thing; someone may be thinking of the American Standard Version or the New American Standard Version) in our Masses – we use the NAB (New American Bible). .

Deacon Ed

Deacon Ed was writing about a post of mine, Exporter. He IS CORRECT. WHY is he correct?

Will the reader look dowwn at his key board. Now look to see where the “V” is relative to the “B”. Now you know.

Whan I was typing NAB, I inadverntly typed NAV. Yes I did it. I won’t say I am sorry because it was a simple “typo”. Oh well…heck…I’m sorry. Foolish me! I’ll try to do better. That is one typo in 800 posts.
 
Deacon Ed:
We don’t use the NAV (there’s no such thing; someone may be thinking of the American Standard Version or the New American Standard Version) in our Masses – we use the NAB (New American Bible). .

Deacon Ed

Deacon Ed was writing about a post of mine, Exporter. He IS CORRECT. WHY is he correct?

Will the reader look down at his key board. Now look to see where the “V” is relative to the “B”. Side by side, eh? Now you know.

Whan I was typing NAB, I inadverntly typed NAV. Yes I did it. I won’t say I am sorry because it was a simple “typo”. Oh well…heck…I’m sorry. Foolish me! I’ll try to do better. That is one typo in 800 posts.
 
Catholic Ecumenism in Russia by a Jesuit

catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Faith/0910-96/article2.html

As I read this it seems that the Vatican has told the Bishops who are near Eastern Churches to hold out an open hand, to give the information the Eastern Priests need when and if they come back home to the Roman Church. The Vatican’s Ecumenism is a friendly extension of an offer for them to return to the Roman Catholic Church.

** Those scholars and ordinary posters are asked if you agree with my assessment to make a comment. If this is Catholic Ecumenism, then Put me down in the “Yes” column.
 
Exporter said:
*
Whan I was typing NAB, I inadverntly typed NAV. Yes I did it. I won’t say I am sorry because it was a simple “typo”. Oh well…heck…I’m sorry. Foolish me! I’ll try to do better. That is one typo in 800 posts.

It gets worse…2 in 801 !
I guess you’ll excuse it as the A is diagonal to the E ? Yur fired.
Get out of my typing pool!
 
TNT, ( Did I spele that rite?)

TNTQuote:
Originally Posted by Exporter
**
Whan* I was typing NAB, I inadverntly typed NAV. Yes I did it. I won’t say I am sorry because it was a simple “typo”. Oh well…heck…I’m sorry. Foolish me! I’ll try to do better. That is one typo in 800 posts.

It gets worse…2 in 801 !
I guess you’ll excuse it as the A is diagonal to the E ? Yur fired.
Get out of my typing pool!

TNT, Give me a break. I take pride in my typing even though there are so many cigar ashes on my key board all the letters are smudged out. I will clean them on my birthday. I see you are from Dallas. Well I am a real live Longhorn from Austin I live near the Border now. Hey Buster! What is a typing pool? I am a Chemist - does that count? Trinitro toluene , Shizzosacharomycetesoctosporus cervacea,
Trembolushymenoccularflagellia WHICH WORD IS MISPELLED?
 
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Exporter:
TNT
…I take pride in my typing even though there are so many cigar ashes on my key board all the letters are smudged out. I will clean them on my birthday. I see you are from Dallas. Well I am a real live Longhorn from Austin I live near the Border now. Hey Buster! What is a typing pool? I am a Chemist - does that count?
I keep my cigars outside. (wife thingy). I clean my keyboard every week !. It’a a shower I take on my birthday. True Texan… Love the equipment, hell with the body.
Mcallen/Harlingen / pink grapefuirt … all great. First time I was ever in Brownsville, 1971 I think, it was in a snow storm with 3" on the grapefruits.
Remember Bert Ogden (Ogden Motors) in Edinburg? He and his wife both killed one nite driving home just south of Falfurrias.
He was a good friend. I think of him often.
 
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Exporter:
Contarini, Have you read the extensive posts that CrusaderNY has written not only on this thread but at least one other with the subject being Ecumenism? If you read all of them you will conclude that CrusaderNY is concerned for our Holy Mother Church. He does not want our Church to change just to make some other Religion happier. An example is the Politically Correct language being used by at least one publisher of the NAV Bible which is used in our Masses. In several cases they refuse to use the word “God” - they substituted “Creator”. .
Puhleeze- I have provided at least two links where this stuff that was posted is a straight cut and paste without ever acknowedging attribution of credit to the writers or the sites. And for excellent reasons:

truecatholic.org/v2invalidrites.htm

traditio.com/comment/com0408.htm

One of them is worse than anything Chick comics run and if you call this the defense of Mother Church, may I suggest that you print out some of the stuff from traditio and take it to your pastor and tell him you think it is defending the Church. And be sure and take copies of the other one with you, where some idiot pretends he is the rightful pope instead of John Paul II and lives in a cabin somewhere and issues encyclicals. Gimme a break awready.

I have on this forum been as polite and civil with you as I could be - I have answered at length many of your questions, yet when you make statements that Jews and Muslims are receiving Eucharist and I ask you to cite an incident, or at least admit your rhetoric got the better of you, I have not ever received a reply or acknowledgement.

This kind of thing does not defend our church nor anyone elses.
 
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Contarini:
Well, it’s hard to see how he could be expected to know this, given that it is totally false. The WCC includes only Christian churches. The evidence you cite speaks of bilateral dialogues between the WCC on the one hand and representatives of other religions, including Jews. That does not make the Jews “part” of the WCC–the Catholic Church talks to the WCC too, but it isn’t part of it. Does the fact that the U.S. and Russia have diplomatic talks make Russia part of the U.S.?

If you are going to make some kind of case against ecumenism, you need to make at least some slight effort to get your facts straight and actually think about the subject instead of spewing easily refutable misinformation.

In Christ,

Edwin

I wish the, ah, Thirteen Colonies, were still part of the UK 😃

 
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Exporter:
TNT, ( Did I spele that rite?)

TNTQuote:
Originally Posted by Exporter

Whan I was typing NAB, I inadverntly typed NAV. Yes I did it. I won’t say I am sorry because it was a simple “typo”. Oh well…heck…I’m sorry. Foolish me! I’ll try to do better. That is one typo in 800 posts.

It gets worse…2 in 801 !
I guess you’ll excuse it as the A is diagonal to the E ? Yur fired.
Get out of my typing pool!

TNT, Give me a break. I take pride in my typing even though there are so many cigar ashes on my key board all the letters are smudged out. I will clean them on my birthday. I see you are from Dallas. Well I am a real live Longhorn from Austin I live near the Border now. Hey Buster! What is a typing pool? I am a Chemist - does that count? Trinitro toluene , Shizzosacharomycetesoctosporus cervacea,
Trembolushymenoccularflagellia WHICH WORD IS MISPELLED?

I am no chemist at all, but I would pick:​

Trinitro toluene - this, for being irregularly divided; and

Shizzosacharomycetesoctosporus

which is what I suspect you meant; for the first six letters.

Is there a prize 😃 ? ##
 
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Exporter:
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Contarini:
If you are going to make some kind of case against ecumenism, you need to make at least some slight effort to get your facts straight and actually think about the subject instead of spewing easily refutable misinformation.

Contarini, Have you read the extensive posts that CrusaderNY has written not only on this thread but at least one other with the subject being Ecumenism? If you read all of them you will conclude that CrusaderNY is concerned for our Holy Mother Church.
Why should I read all of them when the ones I have read are full of misinformation? He doesn’t even understand the difference between ecumenism and interfaith dialogue. He completely misrepresents ecumenism and shows no signs of having read any good exposition of ecumenism (such as the work of Newbigin or Wainwright). He’s talking about something he knows absolutely nothing about, and he’s doing so loudly and bombastically.

I can see that he’s concerned for the Church, and I respect that. But concern is no excuse for lying. Crusader isn’t deliberately lying, but he isn’t taking a lot of care to get his facts straight. I’m going to keep calling him on this as long as I’m allows to post on this board. If he cares about the Truth so much, he should care a little about truth.
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Exporter:
He does not want our Church to change just to make some other Religion happier. An example is the Politically Correct language being used by at least one publisher of the NAV Bible which is used in our Masses. In several cases they refuse to use the word “God” - they substituted “Creator”.
That isn’t to make “some other religion happier.” It’s to make liberal members of your own Church happier. (Besides, as I keep saying, ecumenism isn’t about relationships with other religions but with other Christian groups.)

I’m not criticizing Crusader when he has valid concerns. I’m criticizing him when he says things that are not true, and says them in a very confident, bombastic way.
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Exporter:
In my opinion you,Contarini, wrote before you thought when you castigated CrusaderNY. There may have been a “typo” or a slip of the mental processes. You came on pretty hard.
No, there was no slip. I meant to say exactly what I said exactly in the way I said it, and I see no reason to regret it. I think it’s laughable that you accuse me of “coming on pretty hard” given the anger and harshness of Crusader’s posts. Why aren’t you criticizing him? Apparently he can say anything he likes (whether true or not) because of his “zeal for Mother Church,” but he has to be handled with kid gloves. I said nothing that was not fully deserved. You are trying to draw attention away from the one question that really matters, which is whether what Crusader is saying is true.
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Exporter:
Our Bible was complete by the year 100 A.D. Islam spread with the use of the sword in the later 600s… Do you, Contarini, know of a Christian author who wrote in the 600s or 700s about the Muslims? If you do please tell me. That potential book may need cleaning up a bit so we don’t hurt the Muslim’s feelings. As if we really cared.
First of all, the subject of this post is ecumenism. Relations with other religions have nothing to do with ecumenism. I don’t know why you can’t get this straight. Check your Catechism if you don’t believe me.

Second, yes I do know of a Christian author in the 8th century who wrote about Muslims–St. John of Damascus. I haven’t read his work on Islam myself, but an old friend and colleague of mine, Telford Work, gave a paper on the subject a couple of years ago. You can read Telford’s discussion at his website westmont.edu/~work/index.html
The essay in question is called “Sharpening the Doctrine of God.” It’s at the top of the second column under “Presentations.” Telford has a lot of other good stuff on his site related to both ecumenism and interfaith dialogue. He’s more Protestant in his theology than I am, but he’s a very ecumenical Protestant in the best sense of the word (he studied with Geoffrey Wainwright, one of the ecumenists whose work I keep recommending), and he has a good take on interfaith relations as well. From Telford’s description, it seems that St. John of Damascus (who was actually a government official at the court of the Muslim caliph) was more courteous and thoughtful in his response to Islam than many Christians are today.

CrusaderNY’s approach is deeply damaging to orthodox Christianity. Thoughtless anger and unsupported ranting does not help any cause, and I will fight such tactics with my last breath, no matter who uses them.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## I am no chemist at all, but I would pick:

Trinitro toluene - this, for being irregularly divided; and

Shizzosacharomycetesoctosporus

which is what I suspect you meant; for the first six letters.

Is there a prize 😃 ? ##

Whats the prize? I will give you my Good smile, Howszatt?

Actually there were two words mispelled.

Try this, which one is mispelled?
  1. Dominus vobiscum
  2. Domine non sum dignus
  3. Communecantes et diem
    This is easy, huh?
 
Contarini wrote,
**"**Why should I read all of them when the ones I have read are full of misinformation? He doesn’t even understand the difference between ecumenism and interfaith dialogue. He completely misrepresents ecumenism and shows no signs of having read any good exposition of ecumenism (such as the work of Newbigin or Wainwright). He’s talking about something he knows absolutely nothing about, and he’s doing so loudly and bombastically."

I do believe that you, Contarini, are writing from a bit of anger. If he has posted “misinformation” it is incumbent upon you to at least make reference to these errors. You have left us hanging. Please point out the main errors that CrusaderNY made.

If you truely want to be of service you could tell us what the Vatican has written and released on the subject of Ecumenism. Yes you give us the Official Vatican stance on Ecumenism. I will read it…if my server doesn’t go on the blink again. :yup:

Contarini wrote,“First of all, the subject of this post is ecumenism. Relations with other religions have nothing to do with ecumenism. I don’t know why you can’t get this straight. Check your Catechism if you don’t believe me.”
My CCC, page 236 Paragraph # 820 to 822 speaks to Unity. But of course Cardinal Ratzinger is the Imprimi, I bought it at Wal-Mart.
 
I only take the host on my tongue from the priest. I was taught to do that by my Mother who said the lay people should not put it on my tongue because they have not had the sacrement of Holy Orders. I was taught in CCD the proper way to do this. Dominant hand on the bottom so as not to drop the host, and I never have.
 
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Exporter:
I do believe that you, Contarini, are writing from a bit of anger…
Sure. Is that supposed to discredit me? Are you claiming that Crusader is not angry?
If he has posted “misinformation” it is incumbent upon you to at least make reference to these errors. You have left us hanging. Please point out the main errors that CrusaderNY made…
That is a strange request, since both my posts in response to Crusader (#26 and #236) did exactly that. Apparently you have jumped into the ring to defend Crusader without actually reading my criticisms, which were quite specific. Let Crusader defend himself. He shoots his mouth off but cannot support his allegations. Or else, if you really must defend him, address the specific points I have already made:
Ecumenism is not the same thing as interfaith relations
Therefore, Crusader is flatly wrong in saying that Jews are “part of the ecumenical movement”
The premise of the ecumenical movement is not that all churches, much less all religions, are the same or on an equal footing. Crusader needs to support this claim, but he has not done so. He is attacking the leadership of his own Church without supporting his allegations (I’m speaking of the allegations to which I’ve referred).
If you truely want to be of service you could tell us what the Vatican has written and released on the subject of Ecumenism. Yes you give us the Official Vatican stance on Ecumenism. I will read it…if my server doesn’t go on the blink again. :yup:.
You’re the Catholic. You tell me what the Vatican says. Why should I be made to instruct Catholics on the teachings of their own Church?
Contarini wrote,“First of all, the subject of this post is ecumenism. Relations with other religions have nothing to do with ecumenism. I don’t know why you can’t get this straight. Check your Catechism if you don’t believe me.”
My CCC, page 236 Paragraph # 820 to 822 speaks to Unity.
Exactly. 820 specifically speaks of the “unity of all Christians.” You will not find any references to non-Christians in this context. You (and the fundamentalist Protestants who similarly believe that the Vatican is working toward One World Religion) are fighting a mirage. Dialogue with other religions is aimed toward understanding, not unity.

The reason you and Crusader annoy me so much is I’m a Protestant and I live and work among Protestants. I rub shoulders with exactly the kind of liberal Protestants whom you guys most fear. And I know perfectly well what they think of modern Catholic ecumenism–they think it’s a farce and a sham exactly because the Catholic Church is not doing what you guys think it is doing. They accuse the Catholic Church of using ecumenism as a cover for getting everyone to become Catholic. Not just liberals say this–my advisor who’s a fairly conservative Methodist was very upset by Dominus Iesus. He claimed that it was contradicting Vatican II and I don’t know what all. Yet you and Crusader charge ahead as if Dominus Iesus didn’t even exist. What world are you living in?

In Christ,

Edwin
 
Exporter said:
*************************************************************************
Whats the prize? I will give you my Good smile, Howszatt?

Actually there were two words mispelled.

Try this, which one is mispelled?
  1. Dominus vobiscum
  2. Domine non sum dignus
  3. Communecantes et diem
    This is easy, huh?

3 - it should be “Communicantes”​

And, depending on the occasion, “diem” can be “memoriam” (and probably a few other things).

😃 ##
 
Contarini wrote this:
**"**You (and the fundamentalist Protestants who similarly believe that the Vatican is working toward One World Religion) are fighting a mirage. Dialogue with other religions is aimed toward understanding, not unity.

The reason you and Crusader annoy me so much is I’m a Protestant and I live and work among Protestants. I rub shoulders with exactly the kind of liberal Protestants whom you guys most fear. And I know perfectly well what they think of modern Catholic ecumenism–they think it’s a farce and a sham exactly because the Catholic Church is not doing what you guys think it is doing. They accuse the Catholic Church of using ecumenism as a cover for getting everyone to become Catholic. Not just liberals say this–my advisor who’s a fairly conservative Methodist was very upset by Dominus Iesus. He claimed that it was contradicting Vatican II and I don’t know what all. Yet you and Crusader charge ahead as if Dominus Iesus didn’t even exist. What world are you living in?

Contarini you must be getting close to the edge…take a breathe! Now you admit that you are not one of us - You Are a Protestant, most likely a United Methodist. You were speaking as if you were a defensive Catholic - you fooled us. By the way, if you are so reticent to becoming Catholic it’s surprising that you own a Catholic Catechism. Also you commented that CrusaderNY and Exporter FEAR Liberal Protestants. Tell me just one thing that I should fear, just one. You are very good in talking in generalities, try being SPECIFIC.

Will you answer a question honestly? Is it true that the United Methodists recite the Apostle’s Creed near the end of their Sunday Worship Service. You may not call it the Apostle’s Creed anymore but you did in the 1980s.
Here is a copy of it.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

Amen

Why does the United Methodist Church say this prayer. The reason I ask involves just two words.
 
A little information here on the Melkite church that the Deacon is a member of…it is Orthodox through and through…but swears allegiance to the Pope…Sounds a little bit like St Pius X and the Lefebrists does it not???

**THE VATICAN AND THE ORTHODOX **“I believe that the Vatican and the Orthodox have to be converted. Not just one part, but rather both parts of the church need conversion.”

The author of this prophetic statement is His Beatitude, Maximos V Hakim, Greek Catholic Patriarch of Antioch and all the East, of Jerusalem and of Alexandria - St. Peter’s successor as bishop of Antioch.

“There is still a lot to do between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.” the patriarch continued, “the way the Vatican is treating Eastern Catholic churches, for example, is not the way it should be.”

On March 22, the patriarch, accompanied by his assistant, Archimandrite Jean Jeanbart, general secretary of the International Melkite Catholic Union, and Bishop Nicolas Samra, auxiliary bishop of the Melkite Eparchy of Newton, Mass., was the guest of Catholic Near East Welfare Association at the agency’s New York headquarters. The patriarch, who presently resides in the Syrian capital of Damascus, visited North America to ordain Basilian Father Ignatius Ghattas as bishop of the Eparchy of Newton.

Patriarch Hakim has been in the forefront of Catholic-Orthodox dialogue and interfaith dialogue between Christians, Muslims and Jews. His leadership is by deeds and example, not mere words.

One of the most powerful examples of this patriarch’s devotion to ecumenism is the renewal of the Melkite Church. The Melkite Catholic Church is an Orthodox Church that is in union with Rome. Its spirituality, theology, prayer life and liturgy follows the traditions of the Orthodox churches, yet it accepts the jurisdiction of the pope.

Due to the influence of western missionaries and contact with the Latin-rite hierarchy in the United States, the Melkite Church had lost some of these Eastern characteristics. Liturgically and spiritually, the pre-Vatican II church existed as a minor rite within the larger Roman Catholic Church. Western traditions, such as First Holy Communion, Stations of the Cross and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament became a part of the Melkite Church’s liturgical life. Though powerful expressions of the Roman Catholic faith, these traditions are not essential to the spirit of Eastern Christianity.

The Orthodox, fearful of the loss of their identity and independence, have pointed to such additions in the Eastern churches as Latin attempts to homogenize. Thus, the Eastern Catholic churches, whose raison d’etre was to serve as a bridge of unity between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, became a source of discord.

Since his election as patriarch in 1968, Patriarch Hakim has worked for the renewal of Eastern traditions. [p.23]

“We want to live according to our Eastern spirituality, which is not yet 100 percent acquired,” he said.

The renewal of the Melkite Church requires great tact, tremendous insight, patience and Christian sensitivity. The patriarch is aware of his peoples’ devotion and attachment to the outward signs of their faith. Changes must come slowly so as not to confuse or alienate the people, he said, “but the way is for de-Latinization, with the help of the Holy Father himself.”

The Melkite Catholic Church is one of the oldest living expressions of the Catholic faith. “Melkite” is Arabic for followers of the emperor, subjects who accepted the teachings of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon of 451, which declared Jesus Christ both divine and human. Those who rejected this stat-sponsored council-Armenians, Copts of Egypt, Ethiopians and Syrians-opposed the Byzantine emperor’s attempts to centralize and control the church.

Harkening back to his Church’s roots, Patriarch Hakim noted with humor, “We are the imperialists of the fifth century!”

Fifteen centuries later, the differences between those who accepted the Council of Chalcedon and those who rejected it are viewed as political and not theological. “We discovered that we are the same,” said the patriarch. “Today we live together in peace after many centuries of war.”

There are about one and a half million Melkite Catholics worldwide. Originally an Arabic church, many of the Church’s 500,000 Middle Eastern adherents have left the Middle East and emigrated to Australia, Canada, Europe and the United States. [p.24]

This year marks the 100th anniversary of the establishment of the Melkite Church in the United States which presently claims more than 100,000 believers.
Deacon Ed:
We don’t use the NAV (there’s no such thing; someone may be thinking of the American Standard Version or the New American Standard Version) in our Masses – we use the NAB (New American Bible).
Deacon Ed
 
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CrusaderNY:
A little information here on the Melkite church that the Deacon is a member of…it is Orthodox through and through…but swears allegiance to the Pope…Sounds a little bit like St Pius X and the Lefebrists does it not???
No, it doesn’t. The Melkite Church is Catholic. My new archbishop, Cyril, was appointed for us by Pope John Paul II upon recommendation by the Synod of Bishops. Prior to 1726 we were part of the Antiochian Orthodox Church. We retain our liturgy and much of our practice from our days of being Orthodox out of communion with Rome. Today, we are Orthodox in Communion with Rome. We are every bit as Catholic as you (probably more so since we don’t complain about everything).

As I said in another post, there are 14 Churches that use the Byzantine Rite. Of those you will find the Melkites, Ruthenians, Ukrainians and Russians are most common in the United States. There are also Maronites, Catholic Copts (not to be confused with the Orthodox Coptic Church), Ethiopian Catholics (Ge’ez Church), Romanians, and many other Eastern Catholics.

You really need to do some study – your ignorance is simply beyond my ken – especially since you claim you know what you are talking about.

BTW, the article you cite is clearly out of date. Patriarch Maximos V has died and been replaced by Patriarch Gregory III. We never refer to bishops by their last names, only by their religious names. Bishop Nicholas has resigned as the Auxiliary Bishop of Newton. Bishop John has resigned as bishop and been replaced by Abp. Cyril (BUSTROS).

Deacon Ed
 
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