Ecumenism-Why the Euphoria and what is the Gain for Catholics?

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On at least two other threads on CAF I have seen SSPX discussed during the past two weeks. The threads were not deleted as if this subject was taboo. Here is what promted this little remark.
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“I think—that you need to recognize that the forum management has requested that SSPX et al, not be discussed in the CA forum. and that you should perhaps rethink your own agenda in continuing to post from these sources, spread anti-Catholic source material and try to pass it off as something else.”

If the Forum Manegment made such a request I have not seen it. I would like to pose a question. If Atheists and Anti-Catholics are allowed to spread their lies on this Forum, I think it is cowardly and wrong for the subject of SSPX to be prohibited. We have an Atheist named Tlaloc who posts on any thread that entertains Abortion. He promotes Abortion and teen aged sex. No one said a word to him.

I am still looking for my agenda, so I don’t have one at this time. But I can say that I prefer the Mass in Latin. Sometimes I go to a Mexican-language Mass. It makes me think it is Latin for a little while.I feel more comfortable that way…some Spanish words are the same as Latin words.
 
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CrusaderNY:
If you would spend half as much effort in defending those helpless Christians from those Moslems who have slaughtered them, then maybe they would be alive today, I like to negotiate from a position of strength and not selling out my faith or religion. If the Pope called tomorrow for a call to arms to defend the faith, it would be people like you, the Cafeteria Catholics who would run the other way, you can rant and rave about all this Ecumenism and throw around the St pius X name hoping to pin something like that on anyone who disagrees with you hoping to get them kicked off so you can have the entire website to promote your Catholic bashing liberal agenda, but most people are to smart to fall into your trap, you are the “wolf in sheeps clothing” Our Lord warned the faithful about.

And Cardinal Kasper is a converted Methodist who is in charge of this entire Ecumenical effort? It is like having an ex Communist negotiate with the Russians on Arms Control, sorry, but I do smell something rotten in Denmark on this “effort”
You have I believe, posted material from these two sites:

truecatholic.org/v2invalidrites.htm

traditio.com/comment/com0408.htm

I leave it to those who read those sites to make their own judgment about traps and wolves.
 
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CrusaderNY:
As Posted on another string…

Catholic World News, giving out our Lords body is supposed to be given only to persons who are in good standing with the church and not in mortal sin. Cardinal Kasper, as in Catholic World News (he is a former Methodist) wants to give it to Non-Catholics, calling it, check out this liberal phrase “Eucharistic Hospitality”. Is that for real???
And when did the Cardinal cite the circumstances of it being “licit”? What are they? Is this just his opinion or is it “common practice”?
 
A recent occurrence in my Diocese as appeared in Spirit Daily, with so many strings started by Hagia Sophia on the wonders of Ecumenism, I was tempted to start a string to show how dangerous ecumenism really is, but did not want to flood the board. This is the real dangers of ecumenism and the falling away from the faith that it causes.

**Rocking the Faith at Rockville Centre

**"A graduate (about eighteen months ago) of Rockville Centre’s, New York, ‘Pastoral Formation Institute’ wrote regarding the dangerous and anti-Catholic teachings at this Institute. The proposed intention of the Pastoral Formation Institute is nominally to empower the laity to assume more active roles in our Church. However, a misleading, completely secular, and radically pro-feminist agenda is instead being presented by a number of instructors.
Code:
For reasons still unknown to this writer, Our Blessed Virgin Mother, the Holy Rosary, an all-male priesthood, and the Sacraments (especially the Eucharist) were repeatedly attacked and their importance was denigrated.  This writer was also informed of a class, held at the Major Seminary, which actually praised both homosexual marriage and the homosexual agenda.  Church teaching regarding this subject was never presented, even once.

Other major world religions, such as Judaism and Islam, were presented as equal-----regarding the imparting of salvific graces-----to the Catholic Church.  The glorious aspects and teachings of our Church were denigrated and the virtues of other world religions were praised.  Priestly powers were repeatedly attacked and minimized.  The erroneous concept that a lay person could actually substitute sacramentally for a priest regarding absolution of mortal sins was also presented.  The lines between both priests and lay persons and Catholicism and other world religions (even non-Christian religions) was constantly blurred.  These teachings are, of course, completely false and dangerously misleading. 

One female graduate of this Institute was so confused that she no longer knows what to believe regarding her faith.  Instructors at the Pastoral formation Institute are attempting to advance a secular, radical agenda under the auspices of Catholic teachings.  Please pray for our Church and lend support to our Bishop in his fight to preserve Catholic doctrine and our faith."
 
No I dont visit those sites, I have received much of my information from friends and family and have compiled a vast library on the faith.

Hey…that link you sent me looks like a schismatic website, you should not be going there…Are you really a St Pius X’er or a sede vacantist or something really in disguise!!!
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HagiaSophia:
You have I believe, posted material from these two sites:

truecatholic.org/v2invalidrites.htm

traditio.com/comment/com0408.htm

I leave it to those who read those sites to make their own judgment about traps and wolves.
 
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Exporter:
If the Forum Manegment made such a request I have not seen it.
From Apologetics Forum sticky: Banned Topic: Sedevacantism
For the foreseeable future, the moderation staff, in conjunction with the apologetics staff, has decided to ban the topic of sedevacantism (i.e., the theory that there can be at points in Church history no current valid pope). Any threads that open with the topic of sedevacantism will be deleted; any that drift into that topic will be locked.
There are several reasons for this decision, but the one that most concerns the moderation staff is that there have already been two highly contentious threads that have had to be locked. As it seems that it is the topic that is causing such rashness, the Catholic Answers Forums will forego discussing the topic for a while.
Thank you for your cooperation.
I assume this sticky is for the forum in general - as to your other questions, they are something you need to take up privately with a moderator. I do not represent the management of the forum in anyway.
I am still looking for my agenda, so I don’t have one at this time. But I can say that I prefer the Mass in Latin. Sometimes I go to a Mexican-language Mass. It makes me think it is Latin for a little while.I feel more comfortable that way…some Spanish words are the same as Latin words.
That is simply a liturgical preferment acknowledged and permitted by the Church and really has no bearing on ecumenism.
 
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CrusaderNY:
No I dont visit those sites, I have received much of my information from friends and family and have compiled a vast library on the faith.

Hey…that link you sent me looks like a schismatic website, you should not be going there…Are you really a St Pius X’er or a sede vacantist or something really in disguise!!!
Well then it will come as a large surprise I’m sure that much of what you post is there word for word - and puhleeze stop the non-sense. It serves no one and nothing very well. Catholics do not need to be promoting these people or their POV.

Everyone makes foolish mistakes, everyone gets carried away in their trying to make points in a heated debate. People mean well but don’t sometime do well. But we all learn and we should learn to grow out of it.
 
Ok Hagia…lets call a truce…

We can resume our discussion in the AM

God bless
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HagiaSophia:
Well then it will come as a large surprise I’m sure that much of what you post is there word for word - and puhleeze stop the non-sense. It serves no one and nothing very well. Catholics do not need to be promoting these people or their POV.

Everyone makes foolish mistakes, everyone gets carried away in their trying to make points in a heated debate. People mean well but don’t sometime do well. But we all learn and we should learn to grow out of it.
 
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CrusaderNY:
… This is the real dangers of ecumenism and the falling away from the faith that it causes.
Very well spoken. We cannot always give “streaming video” of apostasy in action.
The problem with the “vatican” is that unless the apostasy becomes NOTORIOUS they do nothing effective.
The homo-priest-predator scandal is the arch-example. The ONLY time (barely) anything was done was when the secular law was called in, and the news got a hold of it. Even then, nothing was really done to stop it until the law suits were no longer being covered by insurance.
People provided many valid examples to Rome from the late 80’s onward…nothing.

Ecumenism: The destruction of internal unity in the false hope of gaining external unity.
 
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katherine2:
There are many reasons for ecumenism and irenic interfaith relations. Not all of the reasons are religious or theological. The Church has made the point that some resistance to ecumenism is simple old fashioned prejudice. The strident objections to the actions of the woman in India is not that she is Hindu, but that she has a culture that is foreign to certain westerners and they don’t like that. Is more than sad, its sinful.

And that is all the more reason for those of us who do not altogether share the fears of our “trad” fellow-Catholics to do nothing to make things any harder for them. Some of the sites criticising the SSPX are terribly unsympathetic to them - just because one is utterly opposed to ecumenism, it does not follow that there are not reasons for opposing it. IMO, we can best start being ecumenical by building up our fellow-believers - then we might be more convincing to those who are not in communion with us.​

 
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TNT:
Very well spoken. We cannot always give “streaming video” of apostasy in action.
The problem with the “vatican” is that unless the apostasy becomes NOTORIOUS they do nothing effective.
The homo-priest-predator scandal is the arch-example. The ONLY time (barely) anything was done was when the secular law was called in, and the news got a hold of it. Even then, nothing was really done to stop it until the law suits were no longer being covered by insurance.
People provided many valid examples to Rome from the late 80’s onward…nothing.

Ecumenism: The destruction of internal unity in the false hope of gaining external unity.
I fail to see what any of this scandal has to do with ecumenism. No church that I know of promotes it, agrees with it - it is a crime. The criminals need to be caught and caged.

I read yesterday that Rockville Centre had one of the single largest groups of people charged with various assaults and crimes. IF that is true, It seems to me this is sin - plain and simple. A milieu seems to have taken root where this kind of thing went on.

None of this has to do with ecumenicsm or the people working with it. Every church has people who abuse it, who cause scandal and who create havoc. We are after all all sinners.

But again, I cannot for the life of me connect ecumenism with any of it.

Whatever these perpetrators suffered from, it seems to me to have to do with their own spiritual failing and their own behavior disorders. I don’t think we can blame their faith for it nor anyone elses.
 
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CrusaderNY:
As Posted on another string…

Catholic World News, giving out our Lords body is supposed to be given only to persons who are in good standing with the church and not in mortal sin. Cardinal Kasper, as in Catholic World News (he is a former Methodist) wants to give it to Non-Catholics, calling it, check out this liberal phrase “Eucharistic Hospitality”. Is that for real???

***Cardinal Kasper backs “Eucharistic hospitality” ***

Vatican , Jun. 18, 2004 (CWNews.com) - Cardinal Walter Kasper (bio - news), the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, has said that “Eucharistic hospitality” is licit in some circumstances.

Speaking at a major conference of German Catholics in the city of Ulm on June 18, Cardinal Kasper said that “there are circumstances when a non-Catholic can receive Communion at a Catholic Mass.”

FWIW, Pius X was the Pope who in 1905 permitted some Japanese Catholics in Russian hands during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5 to receive communion from Orthodox priests.​

And as for converts - what were the Apostles ? Was St.Paul less Christian for having been a Jew ? 🙂 Surely not.

I think Cardinal Kasper is absolutely right on this matter. Our Lord is not our property, He is not subject to us, He spent a lot of time with people who by no stretch of the imagine could be described as in good standing.

In fact, I think anyone at all, as long as they are a Christian, should be able to receive the Blessed Sacrament.

What matters is not whether something is “liberal”, “conservative”, Jewish or Gentile - “for all are one in Christ”: what matters is that it should be pleasing to Him and in accord with His Spirit and should build up His members. ##
 
HagaiSophia,

Yes I did post this. It was not a major contention, it was an aside.
"
Quote:
I am still looking for my agenda, so I don’t have one at this time. But I can say that I prefer the Mass in Latin. Sometimes I go to a Mexican-language Mass. It makes me think it is Latin for a little while.I feel more comfortable that way…some Spanish words are the same as Latin words.
HagaiSophia wrote,“That is simply a liturgical preferment acknowledged and permitted by the Church and really has no bearing on ecumenism.”
HagiaSpohia, do you really think that I am so ignorant as to think my choice of a Spanish-Language Mass has anything to do with ecumenism? Give me a little credit!
 
How do you Spell FAILURE of Ecumenism???

By John Thavis
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – A Jewish group’s recent threat to sue for access to church archives left Vatican officials unimpressed.

“It doesn’t make much sense, if you know how archives function. We certainly aren’t going to be intimidated,” said one church expert.

Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld, vice president of the Coalition for Jewish Concerns, said in Washington Jan. 27 that his group would take legal action unless the Vatican Secret Archives were opened within a week. The group believes the material could identify Jewish children baptized as Catholics during World War II.

There are a couple of reasons why such demands for documents are not taken very seriously at the Vatican.

For one thing, delayed opening of archival materials – typically from 50 to 100 years – is a practice adopted by states all over the world, for technical reasons and to protect archives from contemporary political pressures.

Second, the Vatican has made extraordinary efforts to open some document sections in advance in recent years – only to find that very few scholars bother to examine the material.

“It’s strange. It seems that if they can’t find confirmation of their predetermined but undocumented theories, the archives can be forgotten,” said Father Sergio Pagano, prefect of the Vatican Secret Archives.

Father Pagano told the Italian newspaper Avvenire in January that only a trickle of experts is examining the documents regarding Vatican relations with Germany from 1922 to 1939; those documents were made available last fall, ahead of schedule.

The Vatican archives also had seven employees work for three years collating more than 3 million documents on the Holy See’s quiet efforts to help prisoners of war during World War II. The material was opened last May; so far, only 10 European scholars have come to do research, Father Pagano said.

“Sometimes you get the impression that some scholars, whose voices are perhaps amplified too much by the media, demand the opening of the Vatican archives as if they wanted to battle their way into a secret fortress,” Father Pagano said.

“But when the doors open and the documents can be consulted, those who seemed interested don’t show up, or come for what is basically a tourist visit,” he said.

In the Vatican’s view, the recent controversy over a document discovered in France illustrates the dangers of amateur archival research.

The letter, discovered in French church archives, purportedly was approved by Pope Pius XII. It said Jewish children who had been baptized to save them from the Nazis were to be entrusted only to families or institutions that would guarantee their continuing education in the faith.

Jewish groups pounced on the text, saying it proved that the Vatican under Pope Pius XII did not want baptized Jewish children returned to their parents.

But Vatican experts quickly pointed out that the letter was an unsigned summary of church policies, with no clear indication of source. It was written in French and was not found in the archives of the papal nunciature in France.

Then a more complete version of the letter emerged, clarifying that church leaders were speaking of abandoned Jewish children who were in the care of church institutions, not children whose parents wanted them back.

“It would be another thing if the children were requested back by the parents,” said the letter.

At the Vatican, Father Pagano oversees more than 50 miles of shelved archival documents, and the material just keeps growing. For example, he said, over the last six years, more than 5 million pieces of paper have been added to the collection.

The material is opened by pontificate, and next year the Vatican Secret Archives will make available documents from the papacy of Pope Pius XI, 1922-1939.

One reason for the delay is the monumental task of collecting, numbering and organizing the documents for consultation. At the Vatican, each document is double-checked for details like protocol numbers, handwritten notations and envelope information, so that its precise context can be established.

“It’s a long, painstaking and difficult work,” Father Pagano said.

For those who see something sinister in keeping all this information under lock and key, Father Pagano cites the opinions of other professional archivists, who say that letting historical documents sit untouched for several decades reduces the chance of their destruction or exploitation by people who lived too close to the period.

There are a few exceptions to the closed-door rule, however. Postulators working on sainthood causes may gain admission to the unopened archives if they need to research the life of the would-be saint.

END
 
I fail to see how this purports to be a “failure of eccumenism” – it relates to a hard-line group that would never consider being a part of any ecumenical action regardless of circumstance.

Deacon Ed
 
Deacon,

I would think that you would know that the Jews are part of the ecumenical movement -The WCC

A little history maybe:

Origin of Ecumenism

The ecumenical movement as it exists today owes its origin to a conference of Protestant missionaries at Edinburgh in 1910.

It was during this time that Charles Brent, an American Episcopal Bishop of the Philippines conceived the idea of assembling a great conference of delegates from all Christian confessions. A second conference was formed shortly after by Brent called the “Conference on Faith and Order.” In 1919, the Holy See being invited to send delegates, politely declined. Pope Benedict XV explained that although his earnest desire was one fold and one shepherd, it would be impossible for the Catholic Church to join with others in search of unity. As for the Church of Christ, it is already one and could not give the appearance of searching for itself or for its own unity. It is reported that the Holy Father did not disapprove of the movement as something outside the Catholic Church, but by his own words it is obvious he knew it was not only futile, but dangerous and even scandalous to the Catholic Faithful to participate in seeking unity in such a manner.
It was through this movement that the World Council of Churches was born.

interreligious relations & dialogue

·

·Current Dialogue - July 2004 (No. 43)

·Ecumenical Considerations for Dialogue and Relations with People of other Religion

Other important resources* / *important links

Work of the team
The team on interreligious relations promotes contact between Christians and neighbours of other faiths primarily through multi-lateral and bi-lateral dialogue with partners of other faiths that is aimed at building trust, meeting common challenges and addressing conflictive and divisive issues.

An increasingly important aspect of the team’s work is to interpret major trends in the religious, intellectual and political life of various faith communities and to consider the future of religion and interreligious relations.

In partnership with other WCC programme teams, the team on interreligious relations seeks to encourage reflection on religious plurality and its significance for Christian identity and witness. The team also explores issues related to indigenous beliefs, traditional spiritualities and new religious movements.

The primary methodology of the WCC’s work on interreligious relations remains dialogue. During the past years, the WCC has organised a number of Hindu-Christian, Christian-Muslim, Buddhist-Christian, and Jewish-Christian dialogues at the international and regional levels.
Deacon Ed:
I fail to see how this purports to be a “failure of eccumenism” – it relates to a hard-line group that would never consider being a part of any ecumenical action regardless of circumstance.

Deacon Ed
 
“The primary methodology of the WCC’s work on interreligious relations remains dialogue. During the past years, the WCC has organised a number of Hindu-Christian, Christian-Muslim, Buddhist-Christian, and Jewish-Christian dialogues at the international and regional levels.”

Pardon me for usually being practical and looking for real methods that produce results. Correct me if I am wrong, but the WCC uses “dialogue” ( which is talk between a very small number of people) to further their ecumenism.

Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists do not have a heirarchy of leadership like the Catholics do. So what if a handfull of the nonCatholics talk “nice”, it will not spread to the entire religion afterward. In my opinion the only results will be to make that little group who happens to talk, feel good. Without authority not much happens.
 
In case you miss this on another thread…

**Changing the Bible in the Spirit of Vatican II???

**From the US Council of Bishops, This is the problem with V2 and all of the sneaky things done behind the average person in the pew who does not know and research, the Mass being changed, the Bible, the sacrements, what is next?
The answer to your question is that yes, the Bible you and I have at home is this liberalized fake Bible, I never knew this was for real until I received this AM an e-mail from my uncle on this from a Traditional website and then went to the US council of Bishops webpage. I am AMAZED!!! I cant past the entire article as it is to long, please go there yourself and decide is this what we want?
Preface the Revised Edition
of the New Testament


The New Testament of The New American Bible, a fresh translation from the Greek text, was first published in complete form in 1970, together with the Old Testament translation that had been completed the previous year. Portions of the New Testament had appeared earlier, in somewhat different form, in the provisional Mass lectionary of 1964 and in the Lectionary for Mass of 1970.

Although the scriptures themselves are timeless, translations and explanations of them quickly become dated in an era marked by rapid cultural change to a degree never previously experienced. ???The explosion of biblical studies that has taken place in our century and the changing nature of our language itself require periodic adjustment both in translations and in the accompanying explanatory materials. The experience of actual use of the New Testament of The New American Bible, especially in oral proclamation, has provided a basis for further improvement. Accordingly, it was decided in 1978 to proceed with a thorough revision of the New Testament to reflect advances in scholarship and to satisfy needs identified through pastoral experience.

For this purpose a steering committee was formed to plan, organize, and direct the work of revision, to engage collaborators, and to serve as an editoral board to coordinate the work of the various revisers and to determine the final form of the text and the explanatory materials. Guidelines were drawn up and collaborators selected in 1978 and early 1979, and November of 1980 was established as the deadline for manuscripts. From December 1980 through September 1986 the editoral board met a total of fifty times and carefully reviewed and revised all the material in order to ensure accuracy and consistency of approach. The editors also worked together with the bishops’ ad hoc committee that was appointed by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in 1982 to oversee the revision.

In especially sensitive problem today is the question of discrimination in language. In recent years there has been much discussion about allegations of anti-Jewish expressions in the New Testament and of language that discriminates against various minorities. Above all, however, the question of discrimination against women affects the largest number of people and arouses the greatest degree of interest and concern. At present there is little agreement about these problems or about the best way to deal with them. In all these areas the present translation attempts to display a sensitivity appropriate to the present state of the questions under discussion, which are not yet resolved and in regard to which it is impossible to please everyone, since intelligent and sincere participants in the debate hold mutually contradictory views.

Discriminatory language should be eliminated insofar as possible whenever it is unfaithful to the meaning of the New Testament, but the text should not be altered in order to adjust it to contemporary concerns.

The New American Bible is a Roman Catholic translation. This revision, however, like the first edition, has been accomplished with the collaboration of scholars from other Christian churches, both among the revisers and on the editorial board, in response to the encouragement of Vatican Council II (Dei Verbum, 22). The editorial board expresses gratitude to all who have collaborated in the revision: to all the revisers, consultants, and bishops who contributed to it, to reviewers of the first edition, and to those who voluntarily submitted suggestions. May this translation fulfill its threefold purpose, “so that the word of the Lord may speed forward and be glorified” (2Th 3:1). - The Feast of St. Jerome - September 30, 1986
 
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CrusaderNY:
Deacon,

I would think that you would know that the Jews are part of the ecumenical movement -The WCC
Well, it’s hard to see how he could be expected to know this, given that it is totally false. The WCC includes only Christian churches. The evidence you cite speaks of bilateral dialogues between the WCC on the one hand and representatives of other religions, including Jews. That does not make the Jews “part” of the WCC–the Catholic Church talks to the WCC too, but it isn’t part of it. Does the fact that the U.S. and Russia have diplomatic talks make Russia part of the U.S.?

If you are going to make some kind of case against ecumenism, you need to make at least some slight effort to get your facts straight and actually think about the subject instead of spewing easily refutable misinformation.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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Contarini:
If you are going to make some kind of case against ecumenism, you need to make at least some slight effort to get your facts straight and actually think about the subject instead of spewing easily refutable misinformation.

Contarini, Have you read the extensive posts that CrusaderNY has written not only on this thread but at least one other with the subject being Ecumenism? If you read all of them you will conclude that CrusaderNY is concerned for our Holy Mother Church. He does not want our Church to change just to make some other Religion happier. An example is the Politically Correct language being used by at least one publisher of the NAV Bible which is used in our Masses. In several cases they refuse to use the word “God” - they substituted “Creator”.

In my opinion you,Contarini, wrote before you thought when you castigated CrusaderNY. There may have been a “typo” or a slip of the mental processes. You came on pretty hard.

Our Bible was complete by the year 100 A.D. Islam spread with the use of the sword in the later 600s… Do you, Contarini, know of a Christian author who wrote in the 600s or 700s about the Muslims? If you do please tell me. That potential book may need cleaning up a bit so we don’t hurt the Muslim’s feelings. As if we really cared.
 
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