Ecumenism with Lutherans

[josh987654321]

A poster just above says that joint services with Lutherans are wrong.

Yo

The Pope teaches otherwise, and attended and took part in such services himself.

And he is not infallible in such matters.

The poster above says showing a picture of Catholic priests attending a service with clergy, including women clergy, of other denominations, promotes heresy.

Yup. It’s not just that though, it’s the fact that it’s Luther’s 500th anniversary, so we are pretending to have made strides in ecumenism and unification, but if they are celebrating Luther’s 500th anniversary, then obviously that is not true, do either Church not care that one of us are mourning this 500th anniversary while the other celebrate it and vice versa?

The Pope teaches otherwise by attending a service with, and being photographed with, the woman Primate of the Church of Sweden.

Unfortunately very scandalous. This same Church of Sweden that wants to make it mandatory for priests to marry people of the same sex?

God Bless

Thank you for reading

 

[pnewton]

And he isn’t infallible in such matters.

Ecumenism is not a matter of infallibility, as is almost nothing that has been posted on this topic here by either side. If we are to ignore all the Church teaches that is not been declared dogma, then no one here will have any reason to complain, and should show a little more charity toward the Holy Father.

Unfortunately very scandalous.

Jesus himself was very scandalous, and taught his disciples likewise, plucking grain and healing on the Sabbath. He was a scandal to the Pharisees that remained entrenched in their traditions, prejudice and self-importance. Rather, Jesus reached out to the ostracized and outcast.

 

[josh987654321]

Rather, Jesus reached out to the ostracized and outcast.

Fair enough, and ordinarily it would be very Christ like, except your forgetting it’s the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther that Pope Francis chose to do it on. Happy anniversary? Anyway, time will tell.

“For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.”

Thank you for reading.

 

[pnewton]

Fair enough, and ordinarily it would be very Christ like, except your forgetting it’s the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther that Pope Francis chose to do it on. Anyway, time will tell.

As you say, fair enough. I too do no understand this. But in the end, there are bigger fish to fry. It is hardly worth losing peace, or people, over. I am no fan of Martin Luther, but neither do I like a lot of the Catholic leaders of his day. I think I could have done better, and responded to the corruption in the Catholic Church of the Sixteenth Century without slipping into schism. But then I know I am a product of the Twentieth Century with a whole lot of hindsight.

Full disclosure, I was raised as Baptist and did not join the Catholic Church until my forties. I understand “invincible ignorance” from the other side.

 

[NuclearReceptor]

Perhaps doesn’t directly promote heresy, but it can give the impression of false equality to a casual observer — that any Christian denomination is the same as the other.

The Church keeps the door open as an invitation, a starting point, but people might think any door of an ecclesial community is the same and doesn’t really matter at the end.

A life vest or a raft is not the same as a ship. But all are invited to seek safety and refuge in the ship.

Of course, the ultimate salvation is determined by God alone. Perhaps He directly picks up souls in troubled waters.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Outside of the grace of God, shown through the merits of His Son, Jesus Christ, yes, I completely agree that everything I do is sinful and outside of God’s grace, merits eternal death. People do good works all the time. Will those works save them, or the Holy Spirit, Who inspired them by their faith to do those works? I happen to believe that all credit goes to God and that yes, " every little thing we do is sin," outside of God’s grace. Works- righteousness has no place in the theology I advocate, although for faith to be a real and viable part of one’s life, it must be expressed in love and manifested in works. It’s great that so much charitable work is done by so many good people. Will those works somehow guilt God into accepting into Heaven those who otherwise repudiate Him? I somehow doubt it. Jesus Christ must remain at the center. I’m sure that is greatly scandalous in the eyes of the world, but we’re not called to abide by the world’s standards.

 

[JonNC]

The poster above says showing a picture of Catholic priests attending a service with clergy, including women clergy, of other denominations, promotes heresy. The Pope teaches otherwise by attending a service with, and being photographed with, the woman Primate of the Church of Sweden.

Interesting. I am a former Lutheran now continuing Anglican, and I am not convinced or influenced to believe that the pope simply meeting with her promotes heresy. It doesn’t convince me that her ordination is in any way valid.

 

[PickyPicky]

No, and you do not surprise me. I am familiar with your views on the ordination of women. My views on that subject are not relevant, as I am not a Christian. I do have a bias towards reconciliation and peace rather than division and battle, and that leads me to admire the efforts to bring Christians together. And I am unimpressed by those posters who argue that Luther’s dissent from Rome was evil while practising dissent themselves.

The event I was recalling, by the way, was the Pope’s inauguration of the Catholic commemoration of the 500th with a joint service in October last year with Swedish Lutherans in Lund Cathedral.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...ion-for-the-500th-anniversary-of-reformation/

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/10/31/lutheran_archbishop_set_to_welcome_pope_francis/1269045

 

[JonNC]

Actually, I was agreeing with your point, that his meeting with her doesn’t in any way defend or promote heresy. It is fine for him to meet with her.

 

[MichaelP3]

The line of thought: God alone is holy. No creature can be compared to God. No creature should be called holy and venerated since God alone is holy and nothing can be compared to God.

It’s common protestant line of reasoning. It’s based on desire to not offend God, which I suppose is a good thing. Can’t say it’s beneficial because it’s a misconception, but not malicious.

This could be a common Protestant reasoning but then that would just mean I am no common Protestant. You see , I have a Polish Catholic family in law where my father-in-law has worked in Russia and Moldova before. Their entire house is full of Icons he received and I have no issue being between all these Saints. Actually I have 2 Icons he commissioned for me at my request from a well known artist in Moldova when he was working there. These are fully authentic Icons according to the standards.

This one is hanging in my room. No I am not praying to it but I would think it wouldn’t even be hanging there if that was my reasoning.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This one is hanging in my living room. It would be the first one anyone sees when entering my house.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Now I am aware Catholics don’t do Icons kike the Orthodox but I just thought to share that from me personally to say just because I am Protestant one can’t assume what I think.

I’m sorry I took things perhaps too literally and personally - I saw things that may not have been there.

It’s cool. No worries

What ticked me off was your “ever Virgin Mary” in quotes, as if you’re belittling.

And the last part about blasphemy. Veneration of saints is not blasphemy. We glorify God by honoring His saints who manifest His mercy and goodness.

I thought afterwards the quotations would be a mistake. Belittling was not my intention.

As for the blasphemy part. That is not directed as to how you mentioned it. The way the poster who originally replied to me worded hes/her post was the point there. There are numerous threads on here how Catholics try to explain the prayer to Saints and so on and also try and explain it doesn’t mean they worship/think they are the ones anwering. I just think that wording makes it more difficult as it attemps to compare something to God. I know the Catholic argument but that wasn’t my point.

Regards

 

[NuclearReceptor]

I’m sorry I misjudged your thoughts.

Those are beautiful icons by the way. I guess I’m a bad Catholic in that I prefer the Orthodox iconography over the western Catholic icons.

As for why that particular phrase in quotes stood out: there are five particular blasphemies against Mary that we are encouraged to atone for*. One of them is rejection of her perpetual virginity. (And others we won’t mention at this particular time…)

• Private revelation, not binding on the faithful like public revelation…but “worthy of belief”

 

[MichaelP3]

Those are beautiful icons by the way. I guess I’m a bad Catholic in that I prefer the Orthodox iconography over the western Catholic icons.

Well that would make me even a worse Protestant.

But maybe I get where you are coming from. Many people just never had the opportunity to experience "everything ". Considering my father-in-law and his interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, I have been to the most amazing monasteries in Russia, Moldova and Romania. On the other hand I even attended mass in St Peters Basilica. I had many experiences and opportunities and I respect Catholicism and the Orthodox. When it doesn’t seem that way either I am misunderstood or the poster just struck a nerve with regards to the post as we all are human.

All the best

 

[JonNC]

Well that would make me even a worse Protestant.

I absolutely love them. I find iconology to be such a beautiful part of the Christian faith - western and eastern

 

[NuclearReceptor]

I attended a Protestant service with my family (they have yet to find out I converted). In one of the slides during the service, there was an icon of Divine Mercy Jesus (with the rays of white and red). I thought to myself, Little do they know that’s from a vision of a Catholic nun… And the sermon mentioned the great faith of Mary being the Virgin Mother of Word Incarnate even though by human standards, it’s impossible…so I guess those two things were nice…

Are Lutherans and Anglicans the most receptive of icons?

Do they use the term “Mother of God”?

Where do they believe Mary is now?

 

[JonNC]

Are Lutherans and Anglicans the most receptive of icons?

Do they use the term “Mother of God”?

Where do they believe Mary is now?

I would say yes to the first.

Mother of God, Holy Theotokos is doctrinal in Lutheranism, and probably for most Anglicans.

The Assumption, like many parts of Marian teachings, is considered adiaphora in Lutheran tradition. That said, both Lutherans and Anglicans believe in the Communion of Saints. She is with her son.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Joint Declarations are issued on behalf of Catholics, by the hierarchy. They decide the content.

Those who assist the hierarchy in this work are the Church’s best minds in those fields from which they are pressed into service by the Successors of the Apostles.

The Successors of the Apostles decide for all the Faithful and they speak for all the Faithful.

It is to be remembered that the Church proclaimed Martin Luther as Witness of Jesus Christ in 1983, on the occasion of Martin Luther’s 500th birthday.

To know for what purpose the initiatives exist, read the declaration published by the Holy See – From Conflict to Communion. It explains the matter quite clearly

And remember also what Unitatis Redintegratio articulated – the Conciliar teaching of the Pope and all the world’s Catholic Bishops:

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

All of this is certainly most true of the Lutherans.

I would pay tribute to the American bishops and to their periti who have done so much in this year of joint commemoration with our Lutheran sisters and brothers in Christ. I am pleased that, early on, they decided that the Church in America will prolong the commemorative events.

It was a blessing that, in my position, I had the opportunity myself to co-preside beside a Lutheran cleric at one of the Joint Services of Common Prayer, using the liturgy co-promulgated for this purpose by the Holy See.

It was a great privilege extended to me, for in most cases, the Cardinals and Bishops reserved to themselves the historic opportunity to co-preside with their Lutheran counterpart. Looking back to when I was a young priest, I could scarcely have imagined how much we would progress in a mere 50 years, so as to jointly commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The document From Conflict to Communion is quite self explanatory and should be read and adhered to by every Catholic – at least those who are intent on being faithful to, and in submission to, the living Magisterium, divinely constituted by the Church’s Founder.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

The document From Conflict to Communion is quite self explanatory and should be read and adhered to by every Catholic – at least those who are intent on being faithful to, and in submission to, the living Magisterium, divinely constituted by the Church’s Founder.

Don Ruggero, I am grateful that you have made your presence known on this rather unfortunate new site. You bring sanity to the discussion at hand, as well as extraordinary knowledge and experience.

So, please explain to this poor Anglican what in the world gets people so very upset about Martin Luther and the Commemoration of the Reformation? I have not seen such vitriol before. It speaks very poorly for your fellow Church members.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Remarkable, isn’t it?

“Unfortunate” is a kind descriptor. The lack of the previous website’s ethos and diligent moderation suggests other terms…such as horrifying, disturbing, toxic, noxious.

What you are seeing, a group so vitriolic, is a very small and particularly radicalised population. In Europe, I would render into English how they would be termed as integralists; I don’t know how the Americans render this sort of attitude of dissent from the contemporary Magisterium into English.

It is this population that was the group being addressed when, in From Conflict to Communion, we read

1. Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside. Thus, Lutherans and Catholics identify five imperatives as they commemorate 2017 together.

Such a mindset has no place in Catholicism today.

Thankfully their mindset and language, which does typify the approach of Catholics of centuries past, was decades ago set aside by the Holy See and the College of Bishops as unacceptable in the face the divine imperative of the ecumenical movement.

Such language and attitudes as you are remarking certainly won’t be found with our Bishops, in our chanceries, or in institutions of higher education and of academic research on any continent. These, rather, are all now thoroughly imbued with the vision articulated in From Conflict to Communion and other parallel declarations and orientations from the Holy See.

In the United States, Declaration on the Way, which was an American project that was completely echoing the work of PCPCU, is an excellent example of where we actually are institutionally.

How is it to be explained? There are Catholics who do not inform themselves of Church teaching or place themselves under the guidance of the shpherds to whom they owe filial piety and obedience.

Unitatis Redintegratio will be 53 years old this month – I will be certainly be celebrating its birthday and remembering its promulgation by Blessed Pope Paul VI – and there is no excuse for a Catholic to be ignorant or not in complete submission to its teachings…and the same is true with the encyclical Ut Unum Sint of Pope Saint John Paul II.

The words of those two documents should be received by every lay Catholic upon their knees with, as would be said traditionally, obsequium. Any attitude not conformed to the mind of the shepherds of the Church on these matters would be attitudes unworthy of Catholics, who should be of one mind and one heart with the college of the Successors of the Apostles.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I trust you are aware of the splendid event held in Westminster Abbey on October 31 in commemoration of the anniversary, a service in which His Eminence, Vincent Cardinal Nichols, was a participant.

The Address was given by the Most Reverend and Right Honourable Justin Welby, Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of All England and Metropolitan.

The Right Reverend Dr Martin Lind, Bishop, The Lutheran Church in Great Britain, read Romans 1: 16-17, 3:21-18; and the Reverend Eliza Zikmane, pastor, the United London Latvian Lutheran Church and St Anne’s Lutheran Church, London, read St John 17: 20-26.

The Reverend Torbjørn Holt, the Norwegian Church in London and Chairman of The Lutheran Council of Great Britain, introduced the Act of Penitence. The Dean pronounced the Absolution.

During the service, the Archbishop of Canterbury acknowledged the Anglican Communion’s affirmation of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification between the Lutheran and Roman Catholic Churches.

The prayers were led by the Reverend Christopher Stoltz, Minor Canon and Precentor, and said by: David Lin, Chairman of the Lutheran Church in Great Britain; His Eminence Cardinal Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Westminster; Madelaine Mason, the Swedish Church in London; the Reverend Susanne Freddin Skovhus, the Danish Church in London; the Reverend Georg Amann, Deutsche Evangelische Christuskirche, London; and the Reverend Professor Vernon White, Sub-Dean and Canon Theologian.

News archive | Westminster Abbey

I hope that the experience of this historic occasion amongst our sisters and brothers of the Anglican Communion in the United States was as memorable and intentionally meaningful as it was for all of us in Europe, Catholic and across all the Churches and Ecclesial Communities.

Best wishes to you. I am only here on the forum in these days of the anniversary. Although ostensibly retired from responsibilities in these eras, I have been requested to lend aid in certain initiatives with which I have long standing familiarity. Priests never do really get to retire! Cheers.