Edited Title: Is this a Marian deception?

[Michael_Francis]

Let’s please all focus on the topic at hand, and not judge the character of fellow posters. No matter how anyone posts on any other forum, this is CAF and God forbid that we should ever wish to go tit for tat because someone on another board is offensive. Let this forum always be a haven of reason and charity that does credit to Our Lord and our Catholic faith.
Even if someone is an enemy, Our Lord has taught us the proper way to respond to them.

Luke 6:
27: "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28: bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.

31: And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
32: "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33: And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

36: Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
37: “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
38: give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

 

[ssejllenrad]

Let’s please all focus on the topic at hand, and not judge the character of fellow posters. No matter how anyone posts on any other forum, this is CAF and God forbid that we should ever wish to go tit for tat because someone on another board is offensive. Let this forum always be a haven of reason and charity that does credit to Our Lord and our Catholic faith.
Even if someone is an enemy, Our Lord has taught us the proper way to respond to them.

Luke 6:
27: "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28: bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.

31: And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
32: "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33: And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.

36: Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
37: “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
38: give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.”

I hear ya… Sorry mister moderator…

 

[Truthstalker]

Hailmary,

Well, alot has been said in 24 hours, on both sides of the fence.

I am not going to rehash all the arguments and repudiations that have been made… I will say that St. Hilarious made some very good scriptural arguments against Marianism.

I do believe that you touched on the basis of our contention against Marianism in your previous post…

St. Louis’ statement (in bold) is not in any way scriptural, or reasonable… and defies the person and work of Jesus Christ and His death, burial and resurrection. The words of Jesus Himself in the garden of Gethsemane testify that to be “one” with Christ is to be “unified” with the Father…

To be “in” Christ, is to be unified with the Father

John
www.gideonsword.net

This really goes back to the issue of authority: an interpretation of Scripture based on Sola Scriptura supported by John, or the Catholic position of Scripture plus Tradition. The current issue cannot really be solved until the underlying issue of authority is resolved. You can choose between:

Bible + John’s interpretation of it

or

Bible + 2000 years of Catholic interpretation of it plus the oral tradition plus the leading of the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church.

Your choice.

 

[jemfinch]

To be “in” Christ, is to be unified with the Father

Just to challenge some other doctrines I know you hold, please look up how the Bible tells a person to get “into” Christ and start a thread (or privately message me) with what you find.

Jeremy

 

[Free_Grace]

It might be wise to show a little Christian charity to BA and St.Hilarious even if you feel they are being disrespectful. If they are disrespectful, that’s their problem. Does that give us the right to stoop to what we feel their level is?

Jesus tells us to love our enemies, so even if you feel that others are anti-catholic, it would still be nice to show them what Catholics are really made of…

You are a very wise Christian, NotWorthy.

 

[Jabronie]

Pax vobiscum!

I can see it now. bibleapologist dies, goes up to Heaven and meets Jesus. Jesus goes through the judgment list.

Jesus: “You believed in me and preached the Gospel message, good. You helped that old lady across the street, good. You were charitable to the poor, good. But…what was that you said about my mother?”

Have any of you ever known a Jewish man who stood for his mother being insulted?

In Christ,
Rand

No silly… he won’t be judged. He’s already “Saved.”

 

[NotWorthy]

You are a very wise Christian, NotWorthy.

Free Grace, thanks for the kind words, but you know I’m just a sinner trying to get closer to God (Yes I know it’s His Will and Grace that draws us closer.). You know, sometimes I get the feeling you know me better than anyone on these boards. It’s wierd, but I do.

Anyway, I learned from my times on some other boards that you don’t convert too many people by calling them heretics and rude. It seems people are funny that way.

 

[StHilarious]

The word religion comes from the Greek and means a “relationship”

Yours appears to be weak and self serving. So you will only be able to worship God in your way. The only Church which Jesus founded teaches all mankind to worship God in His way… if they will listen.

.

Jesus taught his apostles to pray to the Father in heaven.

Why does the RCC teaches their followers to pray to dead saints and Mary?

Are you listening?

 

[StHilarious]

Scriptural arguments are all he can make. In the land of protestantism there is nothing new under the sun. In the CC we understand that God is love and we understand that love is active and always moving forward. This is why God reveals new things to the Catholic Church (his true Church). Things like the Rosary and the chaplet of divine mercy. The Church is alive and active as it moves through history. God has revealed many things to the CC.

Jesus never said take this all of you and read it. This is the Bible of the new and everlasting covenant. What has God revealed of late to the Baptist Church that I should consider adopting? Marianism is the least of your concerns. We believe in the real presence of the Eucharist and a host of other things I used to judge abominous as a protestant.

The real issue in the end is simple. Protestants won’t admit that there is a problem with the idea that God would allow thousands of different churches to exist in his name that all teach different things. A loving God would not confuse his children, he would establish his one single original Church.

Instead of looking at this problem in length, we can go line by line and issue by issue and use the bible like law makers use the constitution to debate issues in congress and never get anything done.

-D

2 Peter 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2 John 9 Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God; whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

 

[StHilarious]

Catholics believe that we have a responsibillity, and a privelige, to pray for one another. Catholics believe that the saints in heaven do not rest from this responsibillity, but rather take it up with even greater zeal.
The saints in heaven have a perfect love for God. As a result, they also have a perfect love for us on earth. They are also in constant communication with God, since they are in heaven. During their communication, they do not ignore those of us who are still on earth. Rather, their love prompts them to ask God constantly to give us every grace we need to join them in heaven.

So the dead saints are omnipresent?

 

[Flopfoot]

Arg, can’t believe that we have to continously discuss and defend this sort of thing, there are so many other threads. Let me summarise prayer to saints - who by the way are not dead, they are alive in heaven. (Or don’t you believe in eternal life?)

• The saints can hear us praying to them because God allows them to hear us
• God allows them to hear us because He knows the saints desire to bring us closer to Him
• Just like Jesus’ disciples whilst on earth, never performed any miracles or great deeds of their own power, but always of the power of God, similarly the help that saints give us is from the power of God not their own power
• The saints intercede (pray) for us to Jesus, they don’t allow us to jump the queue. Similarly to how people on earth can pray for each other, saints can pray for us
• The saints lived holy lives, so it is good to look up to them as role models
• God has honored the saints by choosing to work miracles through them, and God has particularly honored Mary by choosing her to be the mother of Jesus. If God honors someone, then we should honor that person also
• While we honor saints, we don’t worship them. Worship is for God. There is a difference - for example, on earth we call a judge ‘your honor’ but in no way put him on the same rank as God

That’s about everything I can think of to explain the main teachings on saints at the moment. If anything needs clarifying I’ll try to post about it later. Cheers.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Jesus taught his apostles to pray to the Father in heaven.

Why does the RCC teaches their followers to pray to dead saints and Mary?

Are you listening?

John 15 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask WHATEVER you will, and **it shall be done **unto you.

…I think I shall ask Him to ask the Saints, His friends, in Heaven to pray for enlightenment for you and I…

And it shall be done.

 

[LilyM]

StH, stop with the ridiculousness already.

You posess a telephone, perhaps a cellphone too, and a computer linked to the internet (and presumably email). You can contact anyone anywhere in the world who is similarly equipped with a telephone or an internet account. Pretty much FROM anywhere - at least from most everywhere. Equally easy to contact someone who lives five minutes away or halfway across the world.

Similarly anyone who is possessed of a telephone or an internet account and your address or telephone number can contact you at pretty much any time and from pretty much anywhere. No omnipresence is required, just a desire to contact and a means to do so. We Catholics have both the desire to contact the Saints and Mary, and through them God himself, and the means of communication - God’s omnipotent grace which aids us and them. The very same that enabled Gabriel to travel to Nazareth 2000 years ago.

Don’t bring up this rubbish about Mary or the Saints being omnipresent again.

 

[Zooey]

I hear ya… Sorry mister moderator…

It might have been me…I have been unusually angry about this thread…
When somebody goes after our Lady with intent to demean, I get my Irish up.

 

[Michael_Francis]

…and for your penance each of you who feel guilty should pray 3 Hail Marys…

Relax people. If the shoe fits…wear it…Just do better.
You’re still the best in my book.
MF

 

[bibleapologist]

Hail mary,

I appreciate the time you’ve taken to search the scripture… The ark of the Covenant was the symbol of the presence of God, no matter where it was… whether in Israel or Palestine, God’s presence was known.

I assert that Mary is the living Ark by the following passages:

2 Sam 6:1-11 and Luke 1:39-43 & Luke1:59

These verses match blow for blow summarized in the following:

1. The Ark moved from Galilee to Jerusalem (2 Sam:6:2)
   – the Blessed Virgin moved from Galilee to Jerusalem (Luke 1:39)
2. David and the Isrealites made merry BEFORE the Lord ( 2 Sam 6:5)
   – St. Elizabeth made merry BEFORE the Lord (Jesus in the Womb of His dear mother) (Luke 1:41-42)
3. David confessing “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?” (2 Sam 6:9)
   – St. Elizabeth confessing "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)
4. The ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite for three month ( 2 Sam 6:11)
   – Mary remained with St. Elizabeth about three months (Luke 1:56)

Therefore, the Ark of the Covenant prefigured the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The Ark contained the manna, the staff of Aaron, and the Law which were fulfilled in Jesus(Hebrews 9:4); Jesus is the Bread of Life, the Eucharst; Jesus is the staff of Aaron, liberation from Sin; and Jesus is the Law, the Word of God.

I think it is great that you have recognized that this symbolism would be fulfilled in the New Testament with Christ, and that the design for the ark and it’s travels were symbolic of a future set of events. But there are some similarities that I think you have neglected to recognize…

1. The ark of the covenant was prepared with two cheribums facing each other, with the mercy seat in the center, and God said He would communicate with His people from the mercy seat (Ex. 25:22)… Jesus is the mercy seat (where the blood of the sin offering was to be sprinkled; Leviticus 16:14,15)
2. The ark of the covenant had inside it the tables of the law (like you alluded to), which were broken. This was to symbolize the body of Jesus which was broken for us.
3. This is where I have a problem with Mary being the fulfillment of the “ark of the covenant”. The ark, was only to be carried by Levites (1 Chronicles 15:15). Mary was not a levite, neither was Joseph as they were both descendants of David who was of the tribe of Judah (the horn of Judah).
4. The ark was to be carried by the children of the Levites (as noted above), and carried on their shoulders with staves. This was very important symbolism, I cannot find any reference to Mary being carried by staves, or that by the priestly order of the Levites.
5. Jesus though, was delivered to Jerusalem as was the ark of the covenant. And we was delivered by the High Priests (children of the Levites). This was done when Jesus was betrayed by Judas…

Mat 26:47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and **staves, from the chief priests **and elders of the people.

I also find it interesting that the multitude “from the chief priests”, were carrying “staves” when they delivered Jesus to Jerusalem.

I think the above explanation of the symbolism (although not complete) of the ark of the covenant, to be accurate as it pertains to Jesus and not Mary.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[ricmat]

BA is clearly in the big leagues, and I’m still a minor leaguer, but regarding the Ark being carried by only the Levites – didn’t Jesus high priesthood change the whole model? Jesus was/is high priest, and HE wasn’t a Levite either. Wasn’t this a return to the pre-Levitical (oldest son) priesthood of Melchisedech? Wasnt’t that why Jesus overturned the tables in the temple - to show that this was the end of the old, and the beginning of the new?

And I haven’t read through all the posts, but in addition to the 4 versus posted by HailMary, there’s also the obvious ones in Revelatio 11:19 and 12:1. Perhaps you’ve already responded to that one. [oops, just noticed that Hail Mary DID mention that as well]

 

[LilyM]

BA is clearly in the big leagues, and I’m still a minor leaguer, but regarding the Ark being carried by only the Levites – didn’t Jesus high priesthood change the whole model? Jesus was/is high priest, and HE wasn’t a Levite either. Wasn’t this a return to the pre-Levitical (oldest son) priesthood of Melchisedech? Wasnt’t that why Jesus overturned the tables in the temple - to show that this was the end of the old, and the beginning of the new?

And I haven’t read through all the posts, but in addition to the 4 versus posted by HailMary, there’s also the obvious ones in Revelatio 11:19 and 12:1. Perhaps you’ve already responded to that one. [oops, just noticed that Hail Mary DID mention that as well]

Umm … no. Jesus overturned the tables of the money-changers in the temple because they were cheating their customers (hence the comment about the temple having become ‘a den of thieves’, d’uh). Nothing about abolishing the priesthood in there.

Not to mention the priestly prerogatives he gave to his Apostles either individually or collectively, such as the power to forgive sins, to bind and loose heaven, the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Remember that plenty of these were given AFTER the resurrection as well so not even the tearing of the veil in the temple can be taken to sighify that the priesthood was abolished.

If he didn’t want a priestly order he would’ve given these instructions to ALL his disciples, not just the chosen few (or the chosen ONE in Peter’s case, since he was given extra status and extra responsibilities).

 

[ricmat]

Umm … no. Jesus overturned the tables of the money-changers in the temple because they were cheating their customers (hence the comment about the temple having become ‘a den of thieves’, d’uh). Nothing about abolishing the priesthood in there.

Not to mention the priestly prerogatives he gave to his Apostles either individually or collectively, such as the power to forgive sins, to bind and loose heaven, the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Remember that plenty of these were given AFTER the resurrection as well so not even the tearing of the veil in the temple can be taken to sighify that the priesthood was abolished.

If he didn’t want a priestly order he would’ve given these instructions to ALL his disciples, not just the chosen few (or the chosen ONE in Peter’s case, since he was given extra status and extra responsibilities).

Duh… if the Levitical priesthood wasn’t abolished, then how is non-levite Jesus our high priest (I’m Catholic BTW)?

Again, I’m a novice at all this, but aren’t there often many layers of meaning in the actions and words of the bible, both OT and NT?

 

[NotWorthy]

BA, you are so close.

The fact that the Ark could only be touched by Levites with staves simply shows how holy it was as well as Mary is.

Also look at the word Luke uses to describe Elizabeth’s shout of joy. He uses the word anaphenatzen, which is used only in connection with those Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that are associated with the Ark. Clearly, Luke is showing a link between Mary and the Ark.