Effectiveness of reparative therapy

[goofyjim]

This is a difficult question. Let me begin here: if there were a button that individuals who experience same-sex attractions could press which would re-orient their desires instantly, painlessly, and ethically, would they be morally obligated to press it? I would have to say yes, they would be. If same-sex attractions really are objectively disordered; that is, if they really are a disorientation from God’s plan and intention, then I can’t imagine why a Christian, who is called radically to conform himself to Christ’s perfection, could justify not taking that step.

Now, if re-orienting one’s same-sex attractions were a long and difficult process, but a well-developed, well-documented one that has been shown to be possible in all cases and that does not cause any kind of significant psychological harm, would all Catholics with same-sex attractions be required to walk that path? I don’t know the answer to that question.

However, despite the above two examples, I would say that, specifically in the case of reparative therapy, we know (and the USCCB said) that Catholics who struggle with same-sex attractions are not required to seek such therapy for very good reason. This reparative therapy is in its infant stages, and could potentially cause more harm than good. We don’t know how possible or helpful re-orientation of desires is in any individual case; we don’t truly know just how effective we can expect such therapy to be, or whether or now it will be effective with a given person. We know that reparative therapy can cause psychological harm; there are testimonies attesting to that, too.

The bottom line is, even if Christians who experience same-sex attractions would be required in all cases to seek reparative therapy if such therapy were nearly flawless, they are certainly not required to seek it now because it is not at all flawless. A lack of clear knowledge/data about the therapy, the possibility of psychological damage, and potential lack of effectiveness are all factors to be considered. No, the USCCB is wise to leave the matter of whether or not to seek reparative therapy as it exists now up to individual conscience.

God bless.

One would hope that even if the therapy were perfected noone would ever be required to walk the path. Where there is no sin then we are already following Christ. And there is no sin in same sex attraction.

 

[Riley259]

So if even Dr. Nicolosi believes there may be an element of biological predisposition I would assume that means some are born that way and not influenced by psychological factors. More research should be done here. Then maybe we will identify those and not require any of them to do anything but stop the behavior.

Nicolosi acknowledges predispositions but feels that environmental influences also to a certain extent play a part in a person’s same-sex attraction. Even Dr. Francis Collins, the head of the Genome project, doesn’t feel homosexuality is exclusively determined by biological factors - he suggests that these biological factors account for no more than 30% and probably as low as 11% (Dr. Neil Whitehead). The identical twin studies clearly bear this out.

narth.com/docs/nothardwired.html

 

[Newbie2]

I must reiterate that even Dr. Nicolosi said there is likely some biological predisposition towards same sex attraction. That would mean you are born with it. While you can change behavior why is it necessary to change something you are born with? There is and never will be any harm in same sex attraction.

Whoh. Slow down.

If Dr Nicolosi says there is likely some biological predisposition, well, then, that must be so!

The same is said by some about anti-social, pedophilic, and other behaviors; that there is some genetic predisposition to these as well…

So to imply that there are attractions that can lead to behaviors that shouldn’t be addressed because they may be inborn…is painting with a rather broad brush.

“There is and never will be any harm in same sex attraction.” Beg to differ. For those who cannot be chaste for whatever reason, there is great harm.

But, point taken that the attraction, in itself, is not sinful.

 

[Nepenthe]

Yes, and what of those of us (and we are many!) who don’t feel much or any predisposition towards any particular sex or gender identification? I would be horrified at the concept that I could be somehow made ‘more straight’ or ‘more gay’ by this sort of quackery. They can take it and shove it. My identity is just fine, sex or no sex. No repairs necessary whatsoever. I have never harmed another with my predilections or lack thereof, or at least no more than any of us do in our searches for love and partnership (and have striven to make it less). Egad, some of you guys think this is possibly okay, yet in-vitro isn’t? Listen to yourselves, augh!

You’d think you’d be more interested in ensuring your children are not diabetic, or so many other, clearly demarcated genetic horrors…yet you focus on this?

 

[Newbie2]

I missed your point, Nepenthe.

?

 

[Bennie_P]

Be precise with the vocabulary you use; by “disordered behavior,” are you refering to same-sex attractions themselves, or to homosexual sexual acts and the social behaviors that go with them? You cannot equivocate between the two; on this thread we’re only discussing people who experience same-sex attractions but who do not act them out…

****2357 ****Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
**2358 **The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Don’t dismiss Catholic who experience same-sex attractions, live totally chastely, but still oppose reparative therapy; their position is not baseless.

God bless.

I don’t dismiss anyone nor do I lack charity nor do I fail to love anyone, SSA attraction or otherwise. I have many freinds that have or had the Cross of SSA to bare and they would be the first to tell you denial of God’s Grace was the first obstacle they had to overcome before they were able find peace in God’s love. The blanket statement that all that suffer with or had SSA is the same across the board is the lie that I challenge, for each person is an individual, the manifistations of SSA is different from person to person. That false assumption that all with SSA have no choice to thier sexual orientation has put those in the most danger, young adolescents, when being presented to them during the time when sexuality is an uncertain and confusing idea and it is for them I challenge that blanket assumption. We need to give them the time to undestand the complexity of sex and God’s purpose of sexuality, before they fall into disordered habitual behavior that will lead them into a sexual addiction that will be much more difficult to deal with later in adulthood.

This, is something that older Gays within the Gay Rights movement don’t want to happen in order to be able to recruit young confussed adolescents for thier own selfish sexual pleasure.

 

[Transformer]

Bennie, I believe that you don’t want to categorize all people who experience same-sex attractions together. I commented on your use of vocabulary because of what you said here:

Any dysfunctional or disordered behavior has a chance to be corrected or at least controled. But first it has to be acknowledge to be disordered and not justified as being normal, no matter the root cause, rather it be genetic, psycological, enviromental and any combination of root causes."

You spoke of “behavior,” but it sounds like you were describing the attractions themselves and not the behavior. If you were, in fact, talking about homosexual sex and not same-sex attractions themselves, you were certainly right in the quote above. If you were talking about the attractions themselves, your description still may be right, but in that case your use of the word “behavior” confused me. I’m a diction nazi when it comes to this topic because of the number of times I’ve seen individuals’ careless word choice cause several-page arguments between people who agree on a lot more than it seems they agree on.

Anyway, so that I can get a better idea of your position, could you clarify this quite for me:

That false assumption that all with SSA have no choice to thier sexual orientation has put those in the most danger, young adolescents, when being presented to them during the time when sexuality is an uncertain and confusing idea and it is for them I challenge that blanket assumption.

Do you believe that properly informed adolescents have some measure of control (merely by virtue of their psychology, spirituality, and lifestyle; no therapy) over whether or not they experience same-sex attractions? What degree of control would you say they have?

God bless.

 

[goofyjim]

Whoh. Slow down.

If Dr Nicolosi says there is likely some biological predisposition, well, then, that must be so!

The same is said by some about anti-social, pedophilic, and other behaviors; that there is some genetic predisposition to these as well…

So to imply that there are attractions that can lead to behaviors that shouldn’t be addressed because they may be inborn…is painting with a rather broad brush.

“There is and never will be any harm in same sex attraction.” Beg to differ. For those who cannot be chaste for whatever reason, there is great harm.

But, point taken that the attraction, in itself, is not sinful.

What is unchaste about same sex attraction? If it is only an attraction there is no harm.

 

[goofyjim]

I don’t dismiss anyone nor do I lack charity nor do I fail to love anyone, SSA attraction or otherwise. I have many freinds that have or had the Cross of SSA to bare and they would be the first to tell you denial of God’s Grace was the first obstacle they had to overcome before they were able find peace in God’s love. The blanket statement that all that suffer with or had SSA is the same across the board is the lie that I challenge, for each person is an individual, the manifistations of SSA is different from person to person. That false assumption that all with SSA have no choice to thier sexual orientation has put those in the most danger, young adolescents, when being presented to them during the time when sexuality is an uncertain and confusing idea and it is for them I challenge that blanket assumption. We need to give them the time to undestand the complexity of sex and God’s purpose of sexuality, before they fall into disordered habitual behavior that will lead them into a sexual addiction that will be much more difficult to deal with later in adulthood.

This, is something that older Gays within the Gay Rights movement don’t want to happen in order to be able to recruit young confussed adolescents for thier own selfish sexual pleasure.

Noone is recruiting anyone. They are simply tired of being told that the only way to salvation is never to have same sex attraction. You will be surprised how many actually make it there.

 

[Bennie_P]

Do you believe that properly informed adolescents have some measure of control (merely by virtue of their psychology, spirituality, and lifestyle; no therapy) over whether or not they experience same-sex attractions? What degree of control would you say they have?

God bless.

Plenty - They shouldn’t act out sexually and live a chaste life, no matter what sexual orientation or attraction they may feel or experience. Adolescents is a time of confusion. What a child may feel at age 14 may not be there when they are 24. Adolescents are targets for those older homosexuals that tend to be predatorial (I’m not saying all homosexuals are preditors of adolescents, so don’t jump too high) for thier prey. That is a reason they should be taught about sex in it’s proper context and not to be presented with the false idea that homosexual behavior is normal, or that they are predisposed to be “gay” if they have SSA feelings during adoloscents.

With saying that we need to also teach our children not to be bullies and label others, as realated to sexual orientation, or any other form of harrasment. If you tell a child he is worthless enougth times he will tend to believe that, the same as to sexual orientation, or least it could be reenforcement of confusion a child may be already feeling or experiencing.

 

[Bennie_P]

No one is recruiting anyone…

Jim, I know you don’t live in a vaccum. For sure you know there is a large portion of the homosexual community that are preditors of adololscent children. I am not saying those that have SSA living a chaste life as to the teachings of Church are the same as those individuals, your taking my statements out of context.

They are simply tired of being told that the only way to salvation is never to have same sex attraction. You will be surprised how many actually make it there.

This has never been said by me. I appoligize if you think I’m insinuating that.

May I suggest that you do take a look at the book I have been linking over the last few days, it as some very good information about the tatics of the “gay rights” movement and the origin of those tatics. Believe it or not, the “gay rights” movement is not a friend of those that have SSA and want to live according to the Church teachings concerning chastity as you expressed that you do. I believe you when you express that calling you have to bear the cross of SSA and I want to be a supporter for you in prayer and words. I believe God gives you the grace to live as He wants, and how you feel you must do, I have no reason to doubt you. But may I suggest you try not to be an appologist for the “gay right” movement. God bless.

The Pink Swastki

 

[Bennie_P]

Noone is recruiting anyone. They are simply tired of being told that the only way to salvation is never to have same sex attraction. You will be surprised how many actually make it there.

This has never been said by me. I appoligize if you think I’m insinuating that.

May I suggest that you do take a look at the book I have been linking over the last few days, it as some very good information about the tatics of the “gay rights” movement and the origin of those tatics. Believe it or not, the “gay rights” movement is not a friend of those that have SSA and want to live according to the Church teachings concerning chastity as you expressed that you do. I believe you when you express that calling you have to bear the cross of SSA and I want to be a supporter for you in prayer and words. I believe God gives you the grace to live as He wants, and how you feel you must do, I have no reason to doubt you. But may I suggest you try not to be an appologist for the “gay right” movement. God bless.

The Pink Swastki

 

[Ray_Scheel]

From the NARTH reports I have seen only one third of those who try it are completely successful. The other two thirds at best just stop the behavior.

You realize that for major cognitive thinking restructuring attempts, this is actually a really good success rate for a complete cure of the out of norm thoughts? If it is that successful, that is an endorsement for trying the method.

 

[goofyjim]

Behavior is a choice. But NOONE chooses to be same sex attracted. And therefore when it hangs around into adult life which it probably will they cannot choose to be anything but. It is not a light switch that you turn of and on. If some want to call it a disorder fine. I call it natural variance.

 

[goofyjim]

Jim, I know you don’t live in a vaccum. For sure you know there is a large portion of the homosexual community that are preditors of adololscent children. I am not saying those that have SSA living a chaste life as to the teachings of Church are the same as those individuals, your taking my statements out of context.

This has never been said by me. I appoligize if you think I’m insinuating that.

May I suggest that you do take a look at the book I have been linking over the last few days, it as some very good information about the tatics of the “gay rights” movement and the origin of those tatics. Believe it or not, the “gay rights” movement is not a friend of those that have SSA and want to live according to the Church teachings concerning chastity as you expressed that you do. I believe you when you express that calling you have to bear the cross of SSA and I want to be a supporter for you in prayer and words. I believe God gives you the grace to live as He wants, and how you feel you must do, I have no reason to doubt you. But may I suggest you try not to be an appologist for the “gay right” movement. God bless.

The Pink Swastki

Yet I choose to do as Jesus did. I hang out with the sinners rather than the righteous. I actually get a laugh out of the Logo channel occasionally. I prefer to enjoy life and accept my imperfections. If I denied having them I would then be a liar and I am sure God would want nothing to do with me that way. At least while not having sex I can still be more myself with gay friends than having to conform to straight society and not feel free to mention the topic.

 

[Maxply]

Well, it sounds to me that you’re happy at the place you’re at, with it all.

From what I’ve read, I take homosexuality to be a complex phenomenon—so it’s probably a mistake to say, “ALL homosexuals should do THIS; or ALL homosexuals should do THAT; or NO homosexuals can consciously learn to adjust their behavior.” Some can, some can’t; some will, some won’t.

As noted above, the homosexual propagandists are probably doing a grave disservice to those homosexuals who may be able to unlearn the behavior. (I tend to think our hypermodern society pressures people’s sexuality a bit, possibly generating social settings more conducive to promoting homosexual behavior).

I think the question, Jim, you may ask yourself, in bed at 3 a.m., is whether you have some sort of moral obligation to explore the possibility of change, rather than just sluggishly accept it. (I’m using stark language to get the point across here).

Subnote: I think the homosexual propagandists are generating a lot (a TON) of general public ill-will toward homosexuals. Not so good.

 

[goofyjim]

Well, it sounds to me that you’re happy at the place you’re at, with it all.

From what I’ve read, I take homosexuality to be a complex phenomenon—so it’s probably a mistake to say, “ALL homosexuals should do THIS; or ALL homosexuals should do THAT; or NO homosexuals can consciously learn to adjust their behavior.” Some can, some can’t; some will, some won’t.

As noted above, the homosexual propagandists are probably doing a grave disservice to those homosexuals who may be able to unlearn the behavior. (I tend to think our hypermodern society pressures people’s sexuality a bit, possibly generating social settings more conducive to promoting homosexual behavior).

I think the question, Jim, you may ask yourself, in bed at 3 a.m., is whether you have some sort of moral obligation to explore the possibility of change, rather than just sluggishly accept it. (I’m using stark language to get the point across here).

Subnote: I think the homosexual propagandists are generating a lot (a TON) of general public ill-will toward homosexuals. Not so good.

Actually I am already convinced I have no moral obligation whatsoever to change who I find attractive therefore I don’t even seek out the possibility of change. I grow upset by the growing push to provide only reparative therapy and not have acceptance therapy alongside of it.

 

[Sure]

Actually I am already convinced I have no moral obligation whatsoever to change who I find attractive therefore I don’t even seek out the possibility of change. I grow upset by the growing push to provide only reparative therapy and not have acceptance therapy alongside of it.

Jim,

It sounds as though your SSA is fairly deep-seated. You seem to view it as a defining characteristic of who you are. But isn’t it reasonable to assume that people have SSA in varying degrees? Isn’t it possible that there are others with a lesser SSA and with some underlying attraction for the opposite sex? It seems to me that reparative therapy is a wonderful option for those people. Right now our society is ALL about acceptance therapy. In justice to those who are so afflicted, we need to make it known that there are options that can help some (perhaps not all) people.

For example right now a 20 year old male who has some SSA but also some attraction to women will be barraged by society to accept the fact that he is gay and stop “living a lie.” In reality, reparative therapy could help him to cope with his SSA and possibly lessen it or even eliminate it and allow him to live a normal life. It is good to let others know that there are options that can help them live with SSA and live as faithful Catholics.

 

[Newbie2]

From what I’ve read, I take homosexuality to be a complex phenomenon—so it’s probably a mistake to say, “ALL homosexuals should do THIS; or ALL homosexuals should do THAT; or NO homosexuals can consciously learn to adjust their behavior.” Some can, some can’t; some will, some won’t.

As noted above, the homosexual propagandists are probably doing a grave disservice to those homosexuals who may be able to unlearn the behavior. (I tend to think our hypermodern society pressures people’s sexuality a bit, possibly generating social settings more conducive to promoting homosexual behavior).

Subnote: I think the homosexual propagandists are generating a lot (a TON) of general public ill-will toward homosexuals. Not so good.

Dittos. Nobody lives in a vacuum.

I’d echo that there are undoubtably those who are sitting on the edge, confused about their sexuality. The "homosexual agenda"advocates, mostly political in nature, would have them believe that they’re gay, almost automatically, without question.

On the other side, there’s those who are homosexually oriented, and will never be able to be otherwise.

Researcher X says this, Researcher Y says that. “Gay rights” activists confuse the issue, demanding political changes.

It’s a very complicated issue, as Maxply pointed out, and we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush.

 

[goofyjim]

Jim,

It sounds as though your SSA is fairly deep-seated. You seem to view it as a defining characteristic of who you are. But isn’t it reasonable to assume that people have SSA in varying degrees? Isn’t it possible that there are others with a lesser SSA and with some underlying attraction for the opposite sex? It seems to me that reparative therapy is a wonderful option for those people. Right now our society is ALL about acceptance therapy. In justice to those who are so afflicted, we need to make it known that there are options that can help some (perhaps not all) people.

For example right now a 20 year old male who has some SSA but also some attraction to women will be barraged by society to accept the fact that he is gay and stop “living a lie.” In reality, reparative therapy could help him to cope with his SSA and possibly lessen it or even eliminate it and allow him to live a normal life. It is good to let others know that there are options that can help them live with SSA and live as faithful Catholics.

I live a normal life with SSA. I don’t believe anything but chemical makeup in the brain has caused it so it would be useless to try to change. It is a big assumption to think that it could have been reversed had it been caught sooner. It’s time we love people as they are instead of trying to make them fit a certain mold.