EGYPT - Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood assaults 22 Christian churches [AN]

[oldcatholicguy]

Which was clamping down on the Brotherhood. Explains why McCain and Obama don’t want to give them any more support.

I’d wager that both individuals don’t want to give them any more support due to the Egyptian military’s horrible track record in human rights abuses.

 

[Darryl1958]

I listen to the Son Rise Morning Show on my computer every morning. They reported this morning that the Patriarch of the Copts said the news has been biased against the military.

Your link doesn’t see to point in the right direction.

 

[SamH]

I’d wager that both individuals don’t want to give them any more support due to the Egyptian military’s horrible track record in human rights abuses.

Yet they gave money to the Muslim Brotherhood?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Your link doesn’t see to point in the right direction.

Sorry.

sonrisemorningshow.com/

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’d wager that both individuals don’t want to give them any more support due to the Egyptian military’s horrible track record in human rights abuses.

According to Patriarch Ibrahin, in this instance, Morsi’s supporters are terrorists. This is not a political fight, it is a fight between the army and terrorists.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

According to Patriarch Ibrahin, in this instance, Morsi’s supporters are terrorists. This is not a political fight, it is a fight between the army and terrorists.

1. It is a political fight. It’s a fight between the military (which has held the real political power in Egypt for at least the last 50 years) and the MB over who controls the Egyptian government.
2. The current administration isn’t doing anything different than the last several administrations have done. Namely, figure out what is in the best interest of the US and use the “carrot and stick” approach to get that result. If this means keeping a repressive and abusive regime in power oh well.
3. So as long as Side B are terrorists (the MB) we can ignore/forgive the illegality/immorality conducted by Side A (Egyptian military)? Yeah, I don’t think that really agrees with Church teachings. It does, however, sound like the thinking of the individuals who ok’ed the use of torture by US government employees.
4. Sadly I’m becoming more and more convinced that the only reason most posters on here care about what is going on in Egypt is because some of the victims of the violence are Christians. I have a feeling that if this was just Muslim on Muslim violence this thread would have died before reaching a full page of comments.

*[Point 4 is not specifically directed at the poster I am responding to, but is a comment on the general theme I see in the posts in this thread]

 

[gilliam]

1. It is a political fight. It’s a fight between the military (which has held the real political power in Egypt for at least the last 50 years) and the MB over who controls the Egyptian government.

Controlled the government. The MB doesn’t control it now. The military does.

1. The current administration isn’t doing anything different than the last several administrations have done. Namely, figure out what is in the best interest of the US and use the “carrot and stick” approach to get that result. If this means keeping a repressive and abusive regime in power oh well.

No the current administration in Egypt is ignoring the US government. The Sec of Defense, for example, called Gen Sisi 17 times prior to his attacking the Morsi camps the other week, and asked him not to. He did anyway. That is not the way a puppet works.

1. Sadly I’m becoming more and more convinced that the only reason most posters on here care about what is going on in Egypt is because some of the victims of the violence are Christians. I have a feeling that if this was just Muslim on Muslim violence this thread would have died before reaching a full page of comments.

*[Point 4 is not specifically directed at the poster I am responding to, but is a comment on the general theme I see in the posts in this thread]

CAF is a Catholic site. And Christians in Egypt have been oppressed for centuries now; so it is understandable.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Controlled the government. The MB doesn’t control it now. The military does.

No the current administration in Egypt is ignoring the US government. The Sec of Defense, for example, called Gen Sisi 17 times prior to his attacking the Morsi camps the other week, and asked him not to. He did anyway. That is not the way a puppet works.

CAF is a Catholic site. And Christians in Egypt have been oppressed for centuries now; so it is understandable.

1. The Egyptian military has always been in control of the government. The ease in which they removed Morsi is proof of this.
2. No, this isn’t the way a puppet works, but our (the US) response is the way a puppet master works when he is trying to get his puppet “back in line.”
3. Not so understandable to the extent that we ignore the bad behavior of the Egyptian military. The Church calls us to care about everyone, not just the people who happen to be Christian. If you search back a couple of pages you’ll find a thread concerning Buddhists attacking Muslims in Sri Lanka. The sum total of posts for that thread is one individual claiming that there are two sides to every story. You can look at several of the older threads that concern Syria to discover no one really concerned about the bad behavior of the Syrian regime (what you’ll find are posts defending/ignoring this bad behavior). The trend on this sub-forum is- persecution of innocent Christians by Muslims= outrage, persecution of innocent Muslims by anyone else= “well we all know they (the Muslims) started it and deserve it since everyone knows there is no such thing as an innocent Muslim”.
4. You are right, this is a Catholic forum. That means we, as Catholics, should be concerned about the unjust persecution of everyone, not just Christians.

 

[gilliam]

1. The Egyptian military has always been in control of the government. The ease in which they removed Morsi is proof of this.

That is true of recent history, yes.

1. No, this isn’t the way a puppet works, but our (the US) response is the way a puppet master works when he is trying to get his puppet “back in line.”

Really? We haven’t really imposed any painful actions on Egypt… not that there is really much we could do that would hurt Egypt right now.

1. Not so understandable to the extent that we ignore the bad behavior of the Egyptian military. The Church calls us to care about everyone, not just the people who happen to be Christian. If you search back a couple of pages you’ll find a thread concerning Buddhists attacking Muslims in Sri Lanka. The sum total of posts for that thread is one individual claiming that there are two sides to every story. You can look at several of the older threads that concern Syria to discover no one really concerned about the bad behavior of the Syrian regime (what you’ll find are posts defending/ignoring this bad behavior). The trend on this sub-forum is- persecution of innocent Christians by Muslims= outrage, persecution of innocent Muslims by anyone else= “well we all know they (the Muslims) started it and deserve it since everyone knows there is no such thing as an innocent Muslim”.

You won’t find me saying anything like “there is no such thing as an innocent Muslim.”… at least not willfully.

I’ve seen a lot of people, including myself point out Syrian atrocities, Iranian atrocities and the old Iraq regime’s atrocities. Lots of atrocities in the world perpetuated by a lot of different people.

Egypt is right now in a conflict between the military and Islamists. The Christians there are being attacked by Islamists and their followers (and people with grudges against certain Christians for one perceived offence or another)

1. You are right, this is a Catholic forum. That means we, as Catholics, should be concerned about the unjust persecution of everyone, not just Christians.

Maybe your right. Interesting you expect that of us but not the Muslim press or the Hindu press. Good to know we are held to a higher standard, isn’t it? Kinda like holding Americans and the American government to a higher standard, isn’t it?

This isn’t new. Ancient Rome was held to a higher standard as well.

 

[TEPO]

Good to know we are held to a higher standard, isn’t it? .

We are higher. I haven’t heard of any revenge attacks even after more than 40 Churches were burned to the ground. No Christians reported of running out of their homes and ‘taking to the streets’ in fits of rage.

Christians are simply charged with disagreeing with Islamism and its unjust laws. And for that, the poor nuns were paraded around as trophies afraid for their lives, and now its our turn to get blasted… For disagreeing with the Islamists.

I’ll openly declare it right here and now on CAF, that I disagree with Islamism and Sharia Law, because that’s the definition of an Islamist -someone who works toward establishing Sharia Laws.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I disagree with Islamism and Sharia Law, because that’s the definition of an Islamist -someone who works toward establishing Sharia Laws.

Pretty much just splitting hairs as to what degree.

 

[Darryl1958]

Jesus, in telling us to be perfect in our love, advocates for us to love even our enemies.

Even the evil love their family and friends, Jesus tells us.

However, if we do not stand up for our friends, and are admonished for doing just that in a Catholic forum where the whole world is turning their backs on our Coptic friends, how could that not mean that ignoring the plight of Egyptian Copts makes us of a lower moral standing than even the tax payers and the pagans?

They at least stand up for their loved ones. Christians haven’t even had a candle light vigil.
Or if we have, it is not like anyone anywhere would know about it.

We have a few active threads about it on CAF though, and for that we run into criticism from even other Catholics.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Jesus, in telling us to be perfect in our love, advocates for us to love even our enemies.

Even the evil love their family and friends, Jesus tells us.

However, if we do not stand up for our friends, and are admonished for doing just that in a Catholic forum where the whole world is turning their backs on our Coptic friends, how could that not mean that ignoring the plight of Egyptian Copts makes us of a lower moral standing than even the tax payers and the pagans?

They at least stand up for their loved ones. Christians haven’t even had a candle light vigil.
Or if we have, it is not like anyone anywhere would know about it.

We have a few active threads about it on CAF though, and for that we run into criticism from even other Catholics.

You mind citing examples of people being admonished for there concern over the Coptics in Egypt?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Interesting you expect that of us but not the Muslim press or the Hindu press.

Hinduism and Islam are filled with error, while Catholicism is not. Why is it odd that we should expect those who have full access to truth be held to a higher standard than those whose access to the truth is obscured with error? I hold my 10 year old to a higher standard than my 2 year old because my 2 year old doesn’t fully understand what she is doing. Same principle applies. [note- I’m not calling Hindus or Muslims children, just using an analogy anyone with kids would understand]

 

[TEPO]

You mind citing examples of people being admonished for there concern over the Coptics in Egypt?

Well, what about those of us who feel the same way as the Coptics, and say similar things as the Coptics do about the MB? Should Egyptian Christians be held to a higher standard than American ones? Because they were severely punished. Perhaps we should be given a taste of what they had then?

 

[gilliam]

A video from Human Rights Watch on the church destruction in Egypt

youtube.com/watch?v=UYVr4FzEb_A

 

[GraceSofia]

Coptic Catholic Patriarch calls for objective, impartial reporting on Egypt’s crisis

… President of the U.S. Copts Association Michael Meunier gave some context to the situation in the country. “Egypt is just beginning to get back on the path of peace and democracy,” he said. “Under the Muslim Brotherhood rule, there was no peace or democracy for the majority of Egyptians.”

Contrary to some reports by the Western media, Meunier said, Morsi’s government was not a democratically elected one. Rather, the Muslim Brotherhood party, he said, was won through violations in the election process, and did not reflect the majority of Egyptians.

“What’s happening now in Egypt is not a fight between two gladiators. It’s actually the Muslim Brotherhood deciding it’s either they rule Egypt or they burn Egypt.”

 

[GraceSofia]

A couple of other good articles:

Village bloodbath highlights Egyptian agony

The police captain says he has memories of pretending to be dead, of men being dragged around by cars, of a policeman being told by his attacker: “We will give you a slow death.”

Mohammad Abdel-Hamid was the sole survivor of an assault on a police station a few kilometers from the pyramids in which 15 police were killed by supporters of deposed President Mohammed Morsi.

A Coptic Monument to Survival, Destroyed

Why Virgin Mary Church endured until modern times is a mystery. Some churches in Cairo survived because Coptic popes made them their residence. Being built on a place Jesus and his mother had visited gave others in Egypt a claim to fame and a chance at survival, while in still others the miracles performed by the patron saint were a reason for pilgrims to visit and donate. Virgin Mary Church had none of these. For hundreds of years, its sole claim to miracles: a Roman column that, according to parishioners, produced oil once a year on Good Friday. The church was probably too small and too remote from the center of authority to merit notice. Its flock never abandoned it. Most of the Copts had converted to Islam over the centuries, but in Delga a critical mass remained that kept putting candles in front of the old icons.

 

[qui_est_ce]

We are higher. I haven’t heard of any revenge attacks even after more than 40 Churches were burned to the ground. No Christians reported of running out of their homes and ‘taking to the streets’ in fits of rage.

Christians are simply charged with disagreeing with Islamism and its unjust laws. And for that, the poor nuns were paraded around as trophies afraid for their lives, and now its our turn to get blasted… For disagreeing with the Islamists.

I’ll openly declare it right here and now on CAF, that I disagree with Islamism and Sharia Law, because that’s the definition of an Islamist -someone who works toward establishing Sharia Laws.

Kind of reminds me of the bumper sticker “God bless the whole world.” It seems like we are not allowed to pray for individual preferences any more because the PC Nazis say it’s too exclusive.

 

[GraceSofia]

(Coptic) Pope Tawadros II:

I want to tell everyone that the eye of God is on the land of Egypt and all that happens in it. And those that have committed such acts that are not acceptable mentally, logically or morally, these shall be punished by God. God’s punishment is severe. I tell all people that you will live at maximum a hundred or so years and may God prolong your life. But you will stand before God’s judgement one day. In front of God you shall be judged according to the deeds your hands have committed. God’s judgement is swift, not just towards you as an individual, but to all those who followed in your deeds, be it a family or a generation of followers, God the Almighty will have his vengeance. Vengeance will not come via the hands of a human being. It is a Divine vengeance. Who can stand before the Lord?"