Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[Jim_Dandy]

The LDS name whomever they please as a prophet. This is one point where Mormanism and Christianity differ.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Amen, brother. Like “Prophet” Warren Jeffs, for example. The Mormons try to disown this polygamist, but polygamy is required under threat of damnation in Doctrine &Covenants 132 – their “Scriptures.”

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Kathleen,

If you’re talking about the ones shared recently on this thread “about Mormonism”, I read some of those and of course wasn’t impressed, as anyone familiar with either Mormonism and its teachings or with my own responses to much of the unimpressive and unstudied material that person had written.

But yes, I’ve read a few good Catholic links, and appreciated them.

ParkerD, specifically, have you read Father Brian Harrison’s articles? Unimpressive? Unstudied? Nope. The man is a well educated theologian. Well documented, well written. His articles provide sources for his conclusions that the BOM was a fraud and Joseph Smith was a dishonest man. What Fr. Harrison wrote should at least make you want to go to his sources and check it out for yourself.

But in my experience Mormons usually refuse to examine the documentation objectively – they don’t want to find the Truth. Mormon men especially have a difficult time giving up their belief that they can become a God, rule over their own world, and have endless sexual relations with their goddess wives to produce spirit-children to populate that world.

Hey – nice work if you can get it (but you can’t).

Jim Dandy

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

This is the bottom line as Catholics see, when people willfully do not accept the teachings of the Apostles/bishops given them by Christ…

Heresy takes parts of Scripture, phrases that in this country there are new ecclesial communities being started.

There is apostasy where the whole rejection of Christianity takes place. In our view, Mormonism is apostate because it rejects the apostolic faith that historically and through documentation and practice, inspite of the Orthodox and Latin traditions, been continuing since Pentecost.

Heresy and apostasy are caused by sin and the refusal to seek the whole truth and to submit to Christ’s authority in His appointed and chosen ecclesiastics.

There is one sense of looking at the Holy Father and bishops as strangely dressed, half alive men because they do not have sex and families…and then there is the Holy Spirit at work in our faith where we do not look to them but to Christ and His Spirit working through them.

I never saw the Church as run by men. When I hear the teachings of our church, its worship, and practices, I never see the life of the Church in gender…male gender. I pay no attention to gender.

When I see and hear and practice in conjunction with faith, I am responding to the presence of God at work. Big difference. I have had my own period of doubts and alienation, but I never went some place else. I have believed in the Eucharist my entire life, and it is a grace shared with me --undeserving and with no merit of my own.

 

[pablope]

JAVL,

Now I’ve learned something new about either Catholics in general or about your belief in particular. Moses received the Ten Commandments, had the burning bush experience, led the children of Israel out of bondage–yet he wasn’t a prophet? Abraham was given covenant promises that in his seed all the world would be blessed–yet he wasn’t a prophet?

OK–if that’s your belief, then no Biblical passage to the contrary is going to dissuade you.

Parker,

It depends too on your definition of a prophet, and what mission was specifically ordained for the person.

Moses was ordained by God to lead the Jews out of Egypt, does that make him a prophet?

 

[Javl]

JAVL,

I don’t think that is a subject that becomes a strength of Catholicism, since the Bible gives ample definition of the “spirit of prophecy” and the roles of prophets, and Moses was very comfortable with the use of the word “prophet”. Just because the Jews in general have not understood the word and that has continued in the way you have mentioned, does not mean Moses didn’t understand the word.

The prophecy of the coming of Christ that used the words “a prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me” was referring back to Moses with the word “me”, and was saying that he was a prophet.

Here are pertinent verses about that link back to Moses:

Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Acts 3:22
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 7:37
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

As per usual, Parker, you put your spin or the LDS spin on whatever is in scripture. Making it say what you want it to mean does not hold any water.

And believe me when I say that the Jews knew exactly what was meant by the term “prophet” and who was and was not a prophet. Since Christianity is a fulfillment and completion of Judaism, we also know about prophets and prophecy. I suggest that you make a concerted and deep effort to learn about Judaism. A good start is “The Writing of Flavius Josephus”. There is much literature available. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

I suggest that you make a concerted and deep effort to learn about Judaism. A good start is “The Writing of Flavius Josephus”. There is much literature available. Shalom.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,

Flavius Josephus seems to have a different view about Moses than you have:

“49. Now Moses lived in all one hundred and twenty years; a third part of which time, abating one month, he was the people’s ruler; and he died on the last month of the year, which is called by the Macedonians Dystrus, but by us Adar, on the first day of the month. He was one that exceeded all men that ever were in understanding, and made the best use of what that understanding suggested to him. He had a very graceful way of speaking and addressing himself to the multitude; and as to his other qualifications, he had such a full command of his passions, as if he hardly had any such in his soul, and only knew them by their names, as rather perceiving them in other men than in himself. He was also such a general of an army as is seldom seen, as well as such a prophet as was never known, and this to such a degree, that whatsoever he pronounced, you would think you heard the voice of God himself.”

Source:
biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/antiquities-jews/book-4/chapter-8.html

Peace.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,

Flavius Josephus seems to have a different view about Moses than you have:

“49. Now Moses lived in all one hundred and twenty years; a third part of which time, abating one month, he was the people’s ruler; and he died on the last month of the year, which is called by the Macedonians Dystrus, but by us Adar, on the first day of the month. He was one that exceeded all men that ever were in understanding, and made the best use of what that understanding suggested to him. He had a very graceful way of speaking and addressing himself to the multitude; and as to his other qualifications, he had such a full command of his passions, as if he hardly had any such in his soul, and only knew them by their names, as rather perceiving them in other men than in himself. He was also such a general of an army as is seldom seen, as well as such a prophet as was never known, and this to such a degree, that whatsoever he pronounced, you would think you heard the voice of God himself.”

Source:
biblestudytools.com/history/flavius-josephus/antiquities-jews/book-4/chapter-8.html

Peace.

I know exactly what Josephus wrote and his beliefs. I mentioned him and his writings as a starting place about the history of Judaism. You will learn more as you procede to Philo, Clio, and others into Rabbinic Judaism. There is much to learn. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Jim_Dandy]

JimDandy,

Believe what you want but you’re on notice. You are intentionally mis-interpreting LDS scriptures to support a very belligerent and provocative intrepretation. At first I gave you the benefit of the doubt but you seem intent on doing this.

rmcmullan, where are you? I read your threat and responded with a lengthy quote from historian Fawn Brodie, who documents Joseph Smith’s attacks on the Catholic Church in the Book of Mormon and places them in their historic milieu… And you disappeared from this thread.

I’d also like to know what you think about these links, one posted by Miriam, the other by me:

Part 1:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0304fea3.asp

Part 2:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea4.asp

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

Monday’s are most busy for me…

Moses comes under the category of Patriarchs. Abraham is the beginning of the Jewish people.

Please note that when Moses received the 10 Commandments (Decalogue), when he came down from Mt Sinai, the people were already worshipping the Golden Calf.

Thus the Covenant with the Lord as the One True God was broken, and Moses threw the tablets to the ground. The idol worship also ended the Aaronite priesthood where all Hebrew men were priests.

The Levites had to prove their lineage, and that they only were to serve from age 30 to 50. And the Levitical priesthood ended at the destruction of the Temple.

The new priesthood began with Christ…the Holy Spirit Himself choosing the priest, not a believer simply deciding he wanted to become a priest…

The revelation of Who Christ is, and the fulfillment of Who God is ended with the death of the Last Apostle. There was to be no more prophets in revealing Who God Is.
This revelation or prophecy is called public revelation.

Private revelation continues in the Church through its mystics. Mary of Fatima came as a prophet in private revelation. We are not bound to believe the messages of Fatima, but she did forewarn of Russia in 1917 spreading its errors throughout the world, and that a second world war would come preceded by a strange light in the sky, that would be much worst than the first world war. A Northern light appeared across right before the Nazi invasion of Poland. She asked us to pray the daily rosary and do penance for the conversion of sinners and for reparation against sin committed against Christ.

 

[Javl]

To All:

What the LDS Church fails to realize and therefore does not inform its adherents is that the Aaronic and Melchezidek priesthoods no longer exist. If they consider and call themselves Christians they should know that Jesus Christ is the final priest and that He fulfilled and completed these orders. He instituted a new priesthood which exists and is promulgated only within the Catholic and Orthodox Churches alone.
.
To My Mormon Friends:

FYI: I do not know if you are aware of it, but the Catholic Church IS NOT the Roman Church alone but consists of 21 churches. The Roman Catholic Church is but one of the 21. Each Church is in communion with each other and with the Bishop of Rome ( Pope ) who is the head of the Catholic Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[pablope]

Parker,

Monday’s are most busy for me…

Moses comes under the category of Patriarchs. Abraham is the beginning of the Jewish people.

Please note that when Moses received the 10 Commandments (Decalogue), when he came down from Mt Sinai, the people were already worshipping the Golden Calf.

The revelation of Who Christ is, and the fulfillment of Who God is ended with the death of the Last Apostle. There was to be no more prophets in revealing Who God Is.
This revelation or prophecy is called public revelation.

Private revelation continues in the Church through its mystics. Mary of Fatima came as a prophet in private revelation. We are not bound to believe the messages of Fatima, but she did forewarn of Russia in 1917 spreading its errors throughout the world, and that a second world war would come preceded by a strange light in the sky, that would be much worst than the first world war. A Northern light appeared across right before the Nazi invasion of Poland. She asked us to pray the daily rosary and do penance for the conversion of sinners and for reparation against sin committed against Christ.

Private revelation continues in the Church through its mystics.

I would like to point out one additional point. Yes, we have ongoing private revelations, and these revelations always conform to the Gospels, never in contradiction with it, or confirm a Church’s position.

In addition, these mystics and saints do not go out and establish new religions or cults, but instead, become more humble and become even more attached to Christ. A fine example would be St Paul, his revelation was directly from Christ, yet he did not form his own religion.

This is contrast with others who have claimed revelations, and established their own sects, religions, cults…examples, Joseph Smith (sorry if Mormons are offended), EG White, Jim Jones, David Koresh.

 

[Stephen168]

To All:

What the LDS Church fails to realize and therefore does not inform its adherents is that the Aaronic and Melchezidek priesthoods no longer exist.

Strictly speaking, if there ever was a Melchizedek Priesthood it was held by only one man; Melchizedek. I think the Mormon Melchizedek Priesthood is another case of Joseph Smith taking a verse or two out of the Bible, and making something out of it that never was.

 

[zaffiroborant]

To All:

What the LDS Church fails to realize and therefore does not inform its adherents is that the Aaronic and Melchezidek priesthoods no longer exist. If they consider and call themselves Christians they should know that Jesus Christ is the final priest and that He fulfilled and completed these orders. He instituted a new priesthood which exists and is promulgated only within the Catholic and Orthodox Churches alone.
.
To My Mormon Friends:

And the final sacrifice.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[JeanMichel]

The Mormon Jesus Christ is one of three Gods – Heavenly Father, Jesus (Son), and Holy Ghost. Both Heavenly Father and Jesus are ‘flesh and bones.’ Only the Holy Spirit is “a personage of spirit.” They are separate Gods, but “united in purpose.” According to Mormons, that makes them the “Trinity.”

Do you think God cares that Mormons believe there are many Gods and that Mormon men will become Gods in the afterlife and rule over their own world and have endless sex with their many goddess wives and produce spirit children to populate their world?

First Commandment: You shall have no other Gods before me (meaning that He – Yahweh – is the one and only God).

Anyone who reads the Bible reads both the OT and the NT.

So you “know” that God doesn’t really care about polygamy? How did you come by this knowledge, since Jesus Christ forbids even divorce and remarriage. The Jews had long before this stopped the practice of polygamy. God was teaching them the truth, and they slowly learned. The Jews moved from polygamy to monogamy.

–QUOTE-- Some Pharisees approached him by asking him, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?” He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, “For this reason a man shall leave father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh”? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What God has joined together, let not man put asunder.” They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away.” He said to them, "For the hardness of your heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." – END QUOTE – Matthew 19:3-9

The OT is not a textbook in Judaism, nor is the NT a systematic instruction book in Christianity. Judaism was a thousand years old before the first word of the OT was written down, and it was another thousand years before it was finished. The Catholic Church was about 70 years old when she wrote the last NT book and almost 400 years old before she compiled the NT. Both religions were handed down through oral tradition.

Jim Dandy

This is an example of why I have a problem with organized religion of all shapes and sizes. Who was the God Jesus prayed to? He definitely did not pray to himself, but he prayed to his God. That is the same God that Mormons pray to; it is the same God that Catholics pray to.

You mix up scriptures and context in your attempt to “prove” that Mormons believe in three Gods, but in talking to Mormons they say they are monotheists in that they pray to one God without any question or choice of praying to any other God. They have no concept of Ousia or Essence that mystically makes Three one. Without this construct of essence, a mystery, how many Gods are there in Catholicism? What do other organized religions do, such as Islam, do to criticize Catholicism and the doctrine of the Trinity? That’s right, accuse it of being polytheistic. Pot meet kettle.

Who did Jesus teach was his God? He did not teach he was God; but he taught he was the Son of God. Does belief in the Trinity save mankind? Of course not, Jesus did not teach it as a requirement; why do Catholics? Why does any Christian Church?

Why do Mormons teach this three distinct personages thing? Why does it matter? This topic is of such great importance to churches, but Jesus saw fit to virtually ignore it! Who dares to put words in Jesus’ mouth to dictate what is important and what is not?

Jesus taught to repent and be baptized; that is a directive. Then he told us to love God and to love one another. Why don’t churches focus on this? Why do they not compete on repenting and loving?

At a time where there should be unity in the world of Christianity where all raise their voices in joyous praise in remembrance of the birth of their Savior, we sit here segregating ourselves on a doctrine that Jesus did not teach, emphasize, or demand belief in! This is an invitation to repent…each of us. Instead, let’s try to overlook the small stuff and begin learning how to love one another.

 

[JeanMichel]

Again to clarify, what I am looking at is the construct, the foundation of an organization. So to see Mormonism in its essence you have to look at its basic premise: the Great Apostasy…and that the Catholic Church is not the true church.

Yes, I acknowledge that the Mormons are no longer having the use of such language or rites. And it certainly doesn’t want the original form out because there is a new Mormon Temple being erected in the countryside of Rome.

Sigh…bigger sigh. The premise of Mormonism appears to be Jesus Christ. The Apostasy would seem to only be a reason for a restoration. It is another organized religion that repeats the same errors that others so; they forget their God and strive to bring people to “their” church rather than to Jesus Christ. Catholic pot meet Mormon kettle. Why dod men feel the need to do these things? Why is it so hard to love God, seek to follow him, and proclaiim truth; and to have faith that God’s will will be done. Our job is to emulate Christ in word and deed.

 

[Stephen168]

You mix up scriptures and context in your attempt to “prove” that Mormons believe in three Gods, but in talking to Mormons they say they are monotheists in that they pray to one God without any question or choice of praying to any other God.

They talk of three separate beings all being God; therefore they believe in three Gods. They may only pray to one God but they believe there are three.

They have no concept of Ousia or Essence that mystically makes Three one.

Essence make one one. Yes, Mormons don’t want to understand it.

Without this construct of essence, a mystery, how many Gods are there in Catholicism?

Without wheels, would I really have a car? yet my car has wheels. Your statement is pointless.

What do other organized religions do, such as Islam, do to criticize Catholicism and the doctrine of the Trinity? That’s right, accuse it of being polytheistic.

Another pointless but very common Mormon statement. What a Catholic believes does not depend on what a Muslim believes, and neither changes what a Mormon believes.

Pot meet kettle.

Another common yet meaningless Mormon statement.

 

[KathleenGee]

JeanMichael –

What you are seeing is the fruits when people reject the truth of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ Himself is the founder and definer of Christianity and HIs One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church…Not Islam and certainly not Mormonism.

The problem you are describing is when others such as Islam – from its slaughter and staking of the Holy Land by creating more myths – Mohammed had no interest in Jerusalem…and the time in which he was supposed to ascend into heaven – the farthest mosque was 10 miles away…and the spot the Umayyhids created as his ascension was actually approximate to St. Mary Major Catholic Church!!..and the slaughter of Constantinople, the home of the Orthodox Church … from this religion…

To Mormonism appointing itself as the interpreter of the Apostolic Church originating out of the early 1800’s Stone Campbell movement with some pretty shady characters…insinuating Christ made a mistake…the apostles were not allowed to appoint their successors but the Mormons were…

Yes you would have a problem with organized religion.

And if you were to accept the fact that there is such a thing as authentic, concrete, non-arbitrary truth, it would help you to see that theology has its place in insuring Truth.

Jesus said to Pilate, who later had Him crucified named Himself as Truth.

Certainly within all these divisions there are falsehoods but there is only one Truth and that is Jesus Christ. It is his own apostles with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost began His church, appointed their successors, developed liturgy from the Last Supper, the Bible assembled. It took many people many years. No new stories.

There is great consistency of faith and worship since the beginning of Christianity that brings us peace, oneness with God and with each other, holiness not of ourselves but from God alone, the universality of faith inspite of heresies and apostates–they are always present-- throughout the world at the beginning era of Christianity inspite of many hardships and persecutions – not killing, not slaughtering or overtaking holy lands, no creating a new story 1800 years later using glasses—implying blindness because of blindness to the truth of the light of Christ.

Christ’s major healings were regarding blindness…where people could see. Why put on the glasses, Joseph Smith??

There is another thread here started by Soren who has studied under the best scholars in the world on the book of Hebrew.

There is such a thing as scholarly research and then there is another who wants to believe in myths and serve the flesh.

It is Islam and Mormonism that invalidate Christianity for Christianity’s sake.

I pray you come to see that the Truth does exist.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Sigh…bigger sigh. The premise of Mormonism appears to be Jesus Christ. The Apostasy would seem to only be a reason for a restoration. It is another organized religion that repeats the same errors that others so; they forget their God and strive to bring people to “their” church rather than to Jesus Christ. Catholic pot meet Mormon kettle. Why dod men feel the need to do these things? Why is it so hard to love God, seek to follow him, and proclaiim truth; and to have faith that God’s will will be done. Our job is to emulate Christ in word and deed.

People on this board and others like it (MAD) seem perfectly happy to carry on these conversations/debates, this is obvious from the number and longevity of religious discussion sites. Why do you feel the need to direct or set the parameters of what is acceptable to discuss? Do you spend time admonishing people on other boards like MAD and CARM? If you don’t, why not? And if you find yourself continually sighing deeply over the posts why do you not find a more “uplifting” way to spend your time?

 

[Javl]

This is an example of why I have a problem with organized religion of all shapes and sizes. Who was the God Jesus prayed to? He definitely did not pray to himself, but he prayed to his God. That is the same God that Mormons pray to; it is the same God that Catholics pray to.

My friend, you had better learn about the difference between Christianity and Mormonism. The God that Mormons pray to and worship is an “exalted” man. A God of flesh and blood. Jesus, in his human nature, prayed to a God who is Spirit and who was, is, and shall always be. This is the God we Christians pray to.

You mix up scriptures and context in your attempt to “prove” that Mormons believe in three Gods, but in talking to Mormons they say they are monotheists in that they pray to one God without any question or choice of praying to any other God. They have no concept of Ousia or Essence that mystically makes Three one. Without this construct of essence, a mystery, how many Gods are there in Catholicism? What do other organized religions do, such as Islam, do to criticize Catholicism and the doctrine of the Trinity? That’s right, accuse it of being polytheistic. Pot meet kettle.

How can Mormons be monotheistic when by their own admission they believe in three separate Gods, in violation of the first commandment. In Christianity we believe in only one God. That they, and you, do not or cannot understand the Holy Trinity as presented and described in scripture is a matter of non-belief or non-understanding of God’s word. Yes, it is a mystery because the truth of it is beyond the human ability to understand. To believe in the Christian God is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. To deny this is blasphemy.

Who did Jesus teach was his God? He did not teach he was God; but he taught he was the Son of God. Does belief in the Trinity save mankind? Of course not, Jesus did not teach it as a requirement; why do Catholics? Why does any Christian Church?

Jesus taught us who was His God. And He stated many times that He was God when He said that He was the Son of God. And a most emphatic YES that belief in the Trinity does save mankind. I see from your comments that you really know nothing about Christianity.

Why do Mormons teach this three distinct personages thing? Why does it matter? This topic is of such great importance to churches, but Jesus saw fit to virtually ignore it! Who dares to put words in Jesus’ mouth to dictate what is important and what is not?

Mormons refuse to accept and understand the Triune God of Christianity. It matters a great deal in God’s plan of salvation, for if it didn’t the Trinity would have not been revealed to us. Jesus never ignored it and we do not put words in His mouth. Please read and understand what is written in the Bible, for if you did you would not make such inane statements.

Jesus taught to repent and be baptized; that is a directive. Then he told us to love God and to love one another. Why don’t churches focus on this? Why do they not compete on repenting and loving?

For an answer to these questions, I recommend that you learn about true Christianity, for I see you know nothing about it.

At a time where there should be unity in the world of Christianity where all raise their voices in joyous praise in remembrance of the birth of their Savior, we sit here segregating ourselves on a doctrine that Jesus did not teach, emphasize, or demand belief in! This is an invitation to repent…each of us. Instead, let’s try to overlook the small stuff and begin learning how to love one another.

I would like to know where you have gotten all your information on Christianity from because you most certainly have missed the boat.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

True faith is in Jesus Christ, not a man made Christ.

As Javl pointed out, heresy is sin…all divisions about God all draw from one source…and that is sin.