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onenow1
Guest
You are sure ? How’s that possible ?
The very founder of the “Reformation”, Martin Luther, was the “regrettable” one, as he surveyed the damage that his rebellion against authority had caused. His writings show that he lamented his deed when he penned the following remarks…
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet.”
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
This is not true and flies in the face of simple logic! And further more the bible was chained, much as the telephone books were chained in the booths to prevent them from being stolen, remember there was no printing press when they did this. I believe the avarage cost of a hand written bible would have been somewhere in the area of $30,000.00. Hardly affordable by your avarage person.
“Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by GOD and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.” This is a Joint Declaration on Justification (Salvation) by faith, paragraph 15. This joint declaration was agreed upon by the Catholic and Lutheran Churches in 1999 after 33 years of discussion. And further this is what the Catholic Church has always taught.
Indeed, Catholic doctrine !
Yes ! Many ! And coincidently a similarity to Islam.
In Islam it is the Koran only authority.
In Protestantism it is the Bible only that has authority.
In Islam there is the extreme right which teaches that the Koran does not espouse violence, while the extreme left say just the opposite that the Koran does espouse Jihad, or Holy war.
In Protestantism, there are striking similarities between right and left just as in Islam.
While one side interprets Scripture to read one way, the other side will invariably interpret Scripture to read just the opposite.
Every doctrine taught by one Protestant sect is denied by another as stated earlier. For example:
Hell exists. Hell does not exist.
Baptize infants. Do not baptize infants.
Jesus Christ is GOD. Jesus Christ is not GOD.
Once saved, always saved, no works are needed. Work out your salvation, works are needed.
Etc, etc, etc, throughout every Christian doctrine except for the basic one, the existence of GOD.
Note: It is interesting that he wrote in his Commentary on St. John, “We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of GOD, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all.”
Now for someone who humbled himself by admitting that he took the ‘Word of GOD’ from the Catholic Church, he still proceeded to ‘modify’ it without having any authority to do so
Thought: Martin, was a Catholic monk when ordained took a vow of obedience. I guess his vow was meaingless ? Pride !!!
God Bless
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Todd520
Guest
Rebecca, perhaps you should reread my post and what I responded to.
My response was appropriate and ‘not cheap’
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RebeccaJ
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Perhaps you shouldn’t assume that I have not.
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lax16
Guest
I agree, there is not too many ways to take this comment.
As a former Catholic you should know that while at mass we are not only partaking of the Eucharist but are reading scriptural passages as well.
Jesus commanded us to celebrate the Eucharist, not read the Bible.
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onenow1
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So right Lax !
John 6: 49-51 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
He also commanded us to listen to authorities{ Pharisees}{ Church} just as devout Cathoplics should also do.
God Bless
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
The early Christians were Catholics – in name and in doctrine and practice.
Here are a few references:
Decrees of the Council of Rome, Pope Damasus I Presiding - A.D. 382
See also the Councils of Hippo (393), Carthage (397, 419), Florence (1443), Trent (1545-63)
Where We Got the Bible, Henry Graham
In the Beginning: Bibles in the First Thousand Years, Smithsonian
*The First Letter of Clement, c. A.D. 96, Third Pope after Peter, A.D. 88-97 *
The Letters of Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 107 to 110)
First Apology of Justin Martyr, A.D 155
The Early Church, Henry Chadwick
The Primitive Church, D.I. Lanslots
Four Witnesses: The Early Church in Her Own Words, Rod Bennett
Post the evidence for your claims and allegations, please.
Repeating a fallacy doesn’t make it true. An oak tree grows from an acorn. A person grows from a zygote. Post your evidence.
Post your evidence.
You’re claiming that Christ founded His Church, but it went astray, and it had to be restored, huh? As I said in my original post, you and others call Him a failure and a liar – impotent, incapable, a prevaricator, and a charlatan.
The so-called “Reformers” didn’t reform the Church – they invented new doctrines and started their own “churches.”
Jesus promised to be with the Apostles ALWAYS, TO THE END OF THE WORLD (Mt 28:20 KJV). The world’s not ended. Christ and the Holy Spirit will always be with the Apostles, and the bishops who replaced them, to guide them ALWAYS, down through the centuries.
You do, as you stated above.
Every baptized Christian has been born again (John 3:3-5).
The “church of all true believers” is a 16th century invention.
Right! The Catholic Church will endure forever. The Protestant heresy will eventually go the way of all heresies.
Jesus – God Himself – founded only one Church – the 2,000-year-old Catholic Church – He taught it what to believe and gave His life for it. Schism and heresy are not His desire. Read His prayer in John 17. The Catholic Church was founded in A.D. 33 in Jerusalem.
All Protestant ecclesial communities are man made – founded by mere humans in or after the 16th century.
The first Baptist denomination was founded in 1609 in Amsterdam by John Smyth. What is the origin of the European Baptists? Who is the founder? When?
Thanks for your post.
Jim Dandy
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Different Christian groups have different Bibles. Which one is the “real” Word of God? See this Methodist website: Which Bible? Whose canon?An Amen from me from all of my heart.
We ONLY can get to know Jesus and God’s will for our lives better by reading His Word!
In Christ,
Esdra
gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm
This is a very interesting subject, but you’re way off topic.
The population of the world was mostly illiterate until the Industrial Revolution in the late 18th and 19th centuries. Fifty percent of the world’s population is still illiterate today. Twenty percent of the population of the U.S. is functionally illiterate right now. These people obviously did not and do not read the Bible. Yet Christianity flourished – then and now. The Bible was heard, not read, except by a few who could read it aloud for others at Mass, for most of Christian history. It is still read aloud in Catholic Churches every day of the week.
To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant ~ John Henry Newman
Jim Dandy
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ajcstr
Guest
Please consider a couple points
At the time the Latin Vulgate was translated, if anyone could read, they could read Latin.
Before the printing press in the 1400’s the Bible had to be copied by hand letter by letter on animal skin. Who was it that copied these Bibles? If the Catholic Church forbade bible reading, why did they bother to make copies? How may Bibles do you think existed between 400 and 1400? How may people could even read during that period.
The Gospels and Epistles were read at Mass. This was the exposure to the Word. If you have the opportunity to read some 1st and 2nd century literature you will see what the first Christians believed before the New Testament even existed. Steve Ray points out that you could have lived during the crucifixion and resurrection and never read the Gospel of John. Many of these early Christian writings were written by men who studied under the apostles. Whose interpretation of scripture would you say is more trustworthy, Polycarp, a pupil of the Apostle John or Martin Luther ?
Now I am not saying the early fathers are inspired writing or equal to the Bible, I am just saying at least give them the same weight as your pastor or any bible commentary you read has.
Finally, if the Bible is as simple as you say, why are there so may denominations? No sooner than Luther “split” from the Church, other groups who disagreed with him - all citing scripture - split into their own groups.
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Esdra
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I don’t get your obsession with authority anyway! shakehead Your authority has caused so many troubles, it broke people (like my mom for instance!). A priest was allowed to do pretty anything: hit children, preach hell, tell people what to vote etc…
In the middle ages the cardinals and bishops had the same status like aristrocrats - and behaved like that! Instead of serving their people like Jesus told them to!
Was Christ authorative? I don’t think so!
I think Priesthood for all believers is just pretty fine. Every Community is for it’s own. - referring to their administration. There is a pastor and the elders, but they don’t “rule” about the people like bishops etc did, but serve them as equal to them, just like Jesus commanded them to.
You misinterpreted this paragraph of mine: I wasn’t talking about the middle ages here, but about more recent times: some hundred years AFTER invention of the letterpress printing!
Bible Study groups are only a VERY RECENT “invention” among Catholics. Before it WAS sort of forbidden to read them, because people could probably come to the same conclusion like the reformators that not all what the CC teaches is true and that the CC is indeed fallible!
20 years ago my mother started a bible study group in our parish and the local priest shouted at the participants that they’d be a sect!?
You see what I mean?
Didn’t know that - sounds very good. So another point of Reformation slipping into Catholicms (others would be: prayer evenings or bible study groups!) which proofs my statement that the Reformation was also good for the CC!
No, not only. Our Pastor has often stated that. But be aware: our understanding of “one Church” is different: for you the CC is the “one Church” (the only true one established by Christ -you know what that reminds me of?: I’ve read in a book about sects, written by Catholics, that this is a characertistic of a sect!]) and we believe that all who believe in Christ (no matter which denomination or Church) form the “one Church”.
Tell me one Protestant group that says that Jesus is NOT God!? - And don’t give me sects like Jehovah’s Wittnesses - I think we all can agree on that they are a sect.
Well, good and okay. But for me not all Protestant Churches are the same. They are so diverse - and to be perfectly honest: I have found out for myself and I know that it is true that the “Reborns”, namely Pentecostals, Baptists and Anabaptists (in the German speaking countries in Europe is also worth mentioning “Free Evangelical Churches” - which is the European Form of Baptists; cf. here - Post #9 are “most right” of all Christian denominations (and I count the CC and EO also as a denomination here, although I know that this is not correct…)
So for me the Church of Christs consists of various denominations and religions who
- Believe in the Trinity.
- Believe in a relationship with Jesus and that this is the only way to salvation. and know that they need him and understand what he has done for us (on the cross).
- Believe that Jesus is God AND Human and that he had died for us on the Cross so that we won’t be damned in the last days. - All who believe in him will be saved.
Which is certainly right. The CC preserved the Holy Bible for about 2000 years. Which is good - nothing against that. But this doesn’t exclude that they have “wrong parts” in their doctrine.
See, again your obsession about authority!
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God Bless
in Christ,
Esdra
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rmcmullan
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There’s a premise underneath this assertion, that is that there’s a divine priesthood. Protestants who believe their authority comes from the Bible would not buy into this argument.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Well, over 30 years ago my then boyfriends’ mother lead a bible study in our parish with our priests’ blessing. My grandmother was born in 1898, when I was a kid and we’d visit she’d read to me and my brother from her bible. It was well worn then (even more so now since my cousin uses it) and in it’s margin were notes, obviously a bible that was read and studied. My father and mother both read the bible (and read it to us) . My mother in-law reads from the bible every night and has for 75 or so years. No “sort of forbidden” there.
You seemed to have missed the point that this was ALWAYS Catholic teaching. And Catholics have always had prayer evenings, rosary groups, adoration.
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lax16
Guest
Hi Esdra - Have you read about St. Francis of Assisi and his frustration with such things as you have mentioned here?
He was very concerned but he never left the Church. People are not perfect. Jesus knew that there would be problems, but he promised to always stay with His Church.
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onenow1
Guest
It is your rejection of authority not my obsession, with it ! And he certainly was prettty authoritive in Eden,also in the temple !
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me
John 20
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
Luke 10
16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Matthew 18
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector
Isaiah 9
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Daniel 2
44 In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever.
God Bless
onenow1
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ajcstr
Guest
One interesting thing about the Catholic Church is that most if not all of the decisions of councils and synods are documented in writing. Please direct me to the one where they decided to forbid Catholics from reading the Bible. Only place I have ever seen that in writing is in a Jack Chick tract. I think just about every Catholic in here will carry on a discussion to debate points back and forth, but please lets get past the ridiculous stuff. (Besides, the Vatican has the name of every protestant in their database so that they can dispatch the Jesuits in the next inquisition!).
I’m saying this tongue in cheek, not trying to be mean spirited, but we have enough REAL stuff to keep us busy here without dragging the falsehoods into it.
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ajcstr
Guest
Well lets just say that if the fate of the Catholic Church rested on the actions of an individual priest we would all be in trouble. That of course is a sad commentary but there are marginal priests just as there are marginal pastors. I have been yelled at in Confession, thats not appropriate either. No one ever claimed priests to be sinless.
An interesting thing about the Catholic Bibles from the time period you mention (and I have one) is that somewhere around the title page was a statement of indulgences for Bible reading. To me that says the Church views Bible reading as a channel of grace rather than a forbidden practice.
…and PLEASE lets not turn that statement into a battle about indulgences!!
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Jim_Dandy
Guest
Is your interpretation of the Bible infallible – free from error?
United Pentecostals and Oneness Pentecostals do not believe that Jesus was the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity – they don’t believe in the Trinity at all – and they “prove it” by quoting the Bible. All heretics use the Bible to justify their doctrines – from the Gnostics and the Arians to present-day heretics. Is your interpretation infallible? If not, why bother? And why is your interpretation any more “true” than that of any of the other thousands of conflicting and competing denominations?
This is what YOU believe, but not what Jesus and the Apostles taught. For example:
“Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” Mt 7:21. Have you heard of the Ten Commandments?
Is your interpretation infallible? No? Then why believe it?
The New Testament is a mirror of the beliefs and teaching of the Catholic Church. The Church excluded all writings that did not comport with her teachings from the canon. So if your interpretation conflicts with the Church, your interpretation is wrong – the whole of Protestantism is wrong.
You did not answer my previous question concerning the Bible – Which Bible? Whose Canon? Who has the “real” Word of God?
We are not keeping on topic - this is interesting, but it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
Peace be with you,
Jim Dandy
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apexviper
Guest
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true church. It is Christ’s church restored. Peter was never a pope.
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onenow1
Guest
So easy to get off topic !
Renew topic here: There is a seeming paradox in the way Latter-Day Saints approach the non-Mormon (“Gentile”) world. On the one hand they are unsurpassed in the zeal with which they seek converts. But on the other hand they are much more cautious than most religious groups about providing access to their various theological works and “scriptures” (apart from the Book of Mormon, which is always readily available). You will not find public LDS bookshops and reading rooms where the inquirer can browse at will without being accosted. Excerpt from CAF.
God Bless
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ParkerD
Guest
OneNow1,So easy to get off topic !
Renew topic here: There is a seeming paradox in the way Latter-Day Saints approach the non-Mormon (“Gentile”) world. On the one hand they are unsurpassed in the zeal with which they seek converts. But on the other hand they are much more cautious than most religious groups about providing access to their various theological works and “scriptures” (apart from the Book of Mormon, which is always readily available). You will not find public LDS bookshops and reading rooms where the inquirer can browse at will without being accosted. Excerpt from CAF.
God Bless
There’s a new one to me. “Accosted?” If you’re talking about Deseret Book (the only LDS-owned bookstore), then they certainly allow anyone who comes in, who looks like a normal person interested in books, to browse for the book they may want to buy.
I have no idea what personal experience you may have had that made you think you were being “accosted”?
As far as LDS scriptures (Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price–the other two besides the Bible and the Book of Mormon easily accessible as you already mentioned) and LDS talks and Ensign articles, they are all easily accessible on the Internet through lds.org. But if one wanted to read Rough Stone Rolling or the new book about President Monson’s life, I suppose they would need to buy the book or check it out of a good library.
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