Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[Jim_Dandy]

The best book for understanding Mormonism is Isaiah Bennett’s Inside Mormonism. Bennett is a former Catholic priest who, at a time when he was depressed, fell for the claims of Mormonism to be the restoration of the “true church” after the mythical “great apostasy.” He left the Catholic Church and moved to Salt Lake City where he taught Mormon doctrine for two years. He discovered that he had been duped. There was no “apostasy,” among other Mormon fallacies. He returned to the Church, grieving for his sin. Karl Keating of Catholic Answers told him he could do so much good by telling others what he had learned and encouraged him to write. Inside Mormonism is published by Catholic Answers and available at catholic.com.

There are several articles on Mormonism by Isaiah Bennett on line. Just google his name.

Jim Dandy

.

 

[Marie5890]

The best book for understanding Mormonism is Isaiah Bennett’s Inside Mormonism. Bennett is a former Catholic priest who, at a time when he was depressed, fell for the claims of Mormonism to be the restoration of the “true church” after the mythical “great apostasy.” He left the Catholic Church and moved to Salt Lake City where he taught Mormon doctrine for two years. He discovered that he had been duped. There was no “apostasy,” among other Mormon fallacies. He returned to the Church, grieving for his sin. Karl Keating of Catholic Answers told him he could do so much good by telling others what he had learned and encouraged him to write. Inside Mormonism is published by Catholic Answers and available at catholic.com.

There are several articles on Mormonism by Isaiah Bennett on line. Just google his name.

Jim Dandy

.

Thanks Jim. Isaiah is in the perfect position to explain to people what Mormonism teaches. He would understand clearly both the theology of Mormonism (or lack thereof) and compare it to the theology of Catholicism…

There is great wisdom and prudence to reading the understanding of someone who has actually lived both, and understand fully both prisms/filters.

God Bless Isaiah Bennett and his willingness to be honest and clear to truth.

Mormonism definitely has elements that are seductive to honest and people of good faith. But that is not the same as being faithful to the truth.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The Apostasy was universal. It included all churches. But those condemnatory words were not spoken against the Catholic Church. If fact, it was not spoken against any particular church, and least of all against the Catholic Church. It was spoken specifically against those “professors” (i.e. ministers of religion) whom Joseph Smith had encountered—all of whom happened to be Protestants. Indeed, Joseph Smith mentions their denominations by name: they were Methodists, Baptists, and Presbyterians. None of them were Catholics.

Mr. Z, there was only one Church – the Catholic Church – when Mormons claim “the great apostasy” occurred.

Mormon doctrine has changed. Years ago when I first studied it, the “abominable church whose foundation was the devil” was, indeed, the Catholic Church. The LDS “authorities” have remade Mormon doctrine to make it more acceptable to Christians in general and Catholics in particular. Why? To make the claim that they are Christian more palatable. Gone is the “great abominable church” libel against the Catholic Church. Gone is the teaching that Jesus, the preexisting spirit child of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives, was born on earth as a result of the sexual union between Heavenly Father and the very human Virgin Mary. Gone are the illustrations of Joseph Smith siitting on one side of a blanket strung on a rope between two trees with his “secretary” on the other side as Joe “dictated” his “translation” of the Book of Mormon with the aid of magic peep stones. No one but Joe could even glance at the golden plates-- let alone examine them – or God would stirke them dead y’know. The teaching on polygamy is minimized. Other doctrines have also faded into oblivion or been revised. A sanitized Mormonism is presented, and today’s young Mormons don’t know the history of their religion.

Jim Dandy

 

[Marie5890]

Mr. Z, there was only one Church – the Catholic Church – when Mormons claim “the great apostasy” occurred.

Mormon doctrine has changed. Years ago when I first studied it, the “abominable church whose foundation was the devil” was, indeed, the Catholic Church. The LDS “authorities” have remade Mormon doctrine to make it more acceptable to Christians in general and Catholics in particular. Why? To make the claim that they are Christian more palatable. Gone is the “great abominable church” libel against the Catholic Church. Gone is the teaching that Jesus, the preexisting spirit child of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives, was born on earth as a result of the sexual union between Heavenly Father and the very human Virgin Mary. Gone are the illustrations of Joseph Smith siitting on one side of a blanket strung on a rope between two trees with his “secretary” on the other side as Joe “dictated” his “translation” of the Book of Mormon with the aid of magic peep stones. No one but Joe could even glance at the golden plates-- let alone examine them – or God would stirke them dead y’know. The teaching on polygamy is minimized. Other doctrines have also faded into oblivion or been revised. A sanitized Mormonism is presented, and today’s young Mormons don’t know the history of their religion.

Jim Dandy

Jim Dandy I thank you for speaking out the truth.

Whitewashing is a very real element in recent Mormon speak. Most dont even realize how much of their LDS history HAS been whitewashed…

Hey, whatever. But thank you for speaking the truth of what was even if modern Mormon PR would have their own and other speak of so-called “what is”

God knows. God knows who and when the 8th Commandment has been broken…

One thing that has struck me over recent times is just how often the 10 Commandments have been broken…

The most obvious being who one worships and chastisty…

But the 8th had indeed taken a real serious beating…

Bearing false witness is soooooo common place many dont even know they ARE breaking it…

Satan is surely a master …

Time and time again people never think twice of breaking the 8th…they dont even know what the 8th is…

God knows. God IS indeed WATCHING.
You bare false witness against the soul of another and Heaven takes note…

Heaven knows how many time false witness is made against the Lord’d Bride, His eternal Church. And all will be held accountable…

You lie? Well the angels have NOTED indeed your lies…

Repent and turn away from your sinful nature St John cried out. REPENT and return!!

 

[KathleenGee]

Bearing false witness and leading others astray from the true Eucharistic Food…Jesus said those who eat of Him will have eternal life…

We should take His word seriously, and if we do not believe in it ourselves…then others who do believe that Christ remains with us through His Body, Soul, Divinity, and Blood in the Eucharist – let leave of the Divine among us, who do have faith in Him. Then you are walking on more secure ground for yourself.

 

[zerinus]

Mr. Z, there was only one Church – the Catholic Church – when Mormons claim “the great apostasy” occurred.

Mormon doctrine has changed. Years ago when I first studied it, the “abominable church whose foundation was the devil” was, indeed, the Catholic Church. The LDS “authorities” have remade Mormon doctrine to make it more acceptable to Christians in general and Catholics in particular. Why? To make the claim that they are Christian more palatable. Gone is the “great abominable church” libel against the Catholic Church. Gone is the teaching that Jesus, the preexisting spirit child of Heavenly Father and one of his goddess wives, was born on earth as a result of the sexual union between Heavenly Father and the very human Virgin Mary. Gone are the illustrations of Joseph Smith siitting on one side of a blanket strung on a rope between two trees with his “secretary” on the other side as Joe “dictated” his “translation” of the Book of Mormon with the aid of magic peep stones. No one but Joe could even glance at the golden plates-- let alone examine them – or God would stirke them dead y’know. The teaching on polygamy is minimized. Other doctrines have also faded into oblivion or been revised. A sanitized Mormonism is presented, and today’s young Mormons don’t know the history of their religion.

Jim Dandy

None of the things you have mentioned were the official teachings of the LDS Church. Some of the ideas you have mentioned have been bandied about in the Church in earlier times, but they were not correct, and the errors have been rectified. There is nothing hidden in Mormon history. The literature and documentation relating to the past are available for anybody who wants to examine them. All churches have made mistakes in their history, and the Catholic Church has probably made more of them than anybody else. But that is okay. We don’t condemn them for that because over the years sincere attempts have been made to rectify them. That goes for the LDS Church too.

 

[lax16]

None of the things you have mentioned were the official teachings of the LDS Church. Some of the ideas you have mentioned have been bandied about in the Church in earlier times, but they were not correct, and the errors have been rectified. There is nothing hidden in Mormon history. The literature and documentation relating to the past are available for anybody who wants to examine them. All churches have made mistakes in their history, and the Catholic Church has probably made more of them than anybody else. But that is okay. We don’t condemn them for that because over the years sincere attempts have been made to rectify them. That goes for the LDS Church too.

zerinus - Here we go again…even though these are the things taught by LDS founding members, prophets, apostles, etc etc etc…they are not official teachings.

However, there are no official teachings, because things always change with your “teachings”, right? How convenient!

You are too much… let’s see how many things I can throw into one paragraph…is it okay that, in your opinion, “the Catholic Church has probably more mistakes than any other religion in history?” That is okay? I thought your church teaches that these mistakes are what caused the Great Apostasy? I mean Apostasy…or isn’t it now, just apostasy?

Mormons don’t condemn Catholics for their mistakes? zerinus, are you for real? Your whole religion is based on this condemnation. Move away from it as much you want to, but luckily many of us have access to early offical church documents that say otherwise. You see, you can say that the speeches and writings of JS and Co. are not official, but most people would not agree with that.

It’s only recently that Mormon history is being acknowledged by the church. And that is why bloggers like you and other LDS defenders keep saying the same old tired thing.

btw - there are some not-so-favorable statistics you failed to list in your post regarding Mormons. I hate to bring it up, but living in Utah, it is often in the news. Would you like to add “those” to your list? I am growing so weary of the “look how nice we are and how clean our houses are and how many eagle scouts we have…” to prove you are the right church.
I have news for you - Jesus came for sinners and not to make everyone cookie-cuttter cute. He loves those who are not so fortunate, not so pretty, not so nice - we are all His Church. His Church is for all of us, warts and all.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Is it just me, or is there a sense that the Mormon Church has quite an impact on the USA?

There are several threads on them here - they don’t have nearly the same perceived impact in Canada.

Could someone explain this to me?

Alex

 

[SteveVH]

The Catholic Church is also a respected ancient institution. Asserting the truth of Mormonism does not in any way denigrate the historical place of Catholicism as a great Christian institution worthy of our love and respect. Mormonism is not like Protestantism, the sole purpose of whose existence seems to have been to attack and berate Catholicism. Mormonism has no fight to pick with Catholicism. I love the Pope! I think he is great! Catholicism has had an important role to play in history by preserving the Christian tradition in the world, for which it deserves our deepest respect. Mormonism is a new dispensation of the gospel that need not in any way come into conflict with Catholicism. Historically speaking it has only come into conflict with Protestantism, but never with Catholicism.

You cannot, on the one hand, claim that the Catholic Church unraveled, lost “priesthood authority”, became an abomination and corrupted the truth of the Gospel, and then turn around and give it accolades as being a “respected ancient institution”, a “great Christian institution worthy of our love and respect” which preserved “the Christian Tradition in the world”.

Mormonism “need not in any way come into conflict with Catholicism”? The Catholic Church considers Mormonism so far removed from Christianity that it does not even consider it to be heretical, but a different religion altogether. The Mormon church has used unbelievably derogatory language throughout the years to describe Catholicism. How can you possibly say there is no conflict when about the only thing we agree upon is that God exists? This forum provides more than ample evidence of this truth.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

The greatest evidence for the truth of Mormonism in my opinion is the Book of Mormon.

The greatest proof for the fallacy of Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. Much of it is lifted wholesale – word for word – out of the King James Bible, Archaeology disproves the existence of the alleged inhabitants of the United States or anywhere in the New World from “600 B.C. to about A.D. 421” who are the subject of the BOM. It has many, many flaws not only in language – it’s amusing that it quotes Shakespeare – but also in metallurgy and other sciences. Mormons defend the BOM vociferously, but logic and science prove it untrue. To posit that the language of 600 B.C. was the 16th century English of the KJV is totally ludicrous. The BOM is disproven not only by archaeology but also by genetics. Joseph Smith claimed that he translated it, with the aid of “magic peep stones,” from golden plates written in “Reformed Egyptian” – a language unknown to linguists, Egyptologists, and other scholars. The golden plates were so valuable that following “translation” they had to be taken to heaven by an angel – unseen by anyone but the “glass looker” himself. That’s the description of Joseph Smith’s occupation as recorded by the New York court where he was found guilty of fraud for claiming the ability to find buried treasure by looking at magic peep stones in his hat.

The population of the U.S. was illiterate, uneducated, and gullible in 1830 when Mormonism and its Book of Mormon were first touted. They were largely farmers. A long list of novel religions were born in the U.S.A. around the same time, including the Disciples of Christ, Seventh Day Adventism, the Salvation Army, the JWs, Christian Science, and Pentecostals.

Jim Dandy

 

[Alexander_Roman]

The greatest proof for the fallacy of Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. Much of it is lifted wholesale – word for word – out of the King James Bible, Archaeology disproves the existence of the alleged inhabitants of the United States or anywhere in the New World from “600 B.C. to about A.D. 421” who are the subject of the BOM. It has many, many flaws not only in language – it’s amusing that it quotes Shakespeare – but also in metallurgy and other sciences. Mormons defend the BOM vociferously, but logic and science prove it untrue. To posit that the language of 600 B.C. was the 16th century English of the KJV is totally ludicrous. The BOM is disproven not only by archaeology but also by genetics. Joseph Smith claimed that he translated it, with the aid of “magic peep stones,” from golden plates written in “Reformed Egyptian” – a language unknown to linguists, Egyptologists, and other scholars. The golden plates were so valuable that following “translation” they had to be taken to heaven by an angel – unseen by anyone but the “glass looker” himself. That’s the description of Joseph Smith’s occupation as recorded by the New York court where he was found guilty of fraud for claiming the ability to find buried treasure by looking at magic peep stones in his hat.

The population of the U.S. was illiterate, uneducated, and gullible in 1830 when Mormonism and its Book of Mormon were first touted. They were largely farmers. A long list of novel religions were born in the U.S.A. around the same time, including the Disciples of Christ, Seventh Day Adventism, the Salvation Army, the JWs, Christian Science, and Pentecostals.

Jim Dandy

Very good! And thank you for answering my question above!

Alex

 

[zerinus]

zerinus - Here we go again…even though these are the things taught by LDS founding members, prophets, apostles, etc etc etc…they are not official teachings.

However, there are no official teachings, because things always change with your “teachings”, right? How convenient!

You are too much… let’s see how many things I can throw into one paragraph…is it okay that, in your opinion, “the Catholic Church has probably more mistakes than any other religion in history?” That is okay? I thought your church teaches that these mistakes are what caused the Great Apostasy? I mean Apostasy…or isn’t it now, just apostasy?

Mormons don’t condemn Catholics for their mistakes? zerinus, are you for real? Your whole religion is based on this condemnation. Move away from it as much you want to, but luckily many of us have access to early offical church documents that say otherwise. You see, you can say that the speeches and writings of JS and Co. are not official, but most people would not agree with that.

It’s only recently that Mormon history is being acknowledged by the church. And that is why bloggers like you and other LDS defenders keep saying the same old tired thing.

btw - there are some not-so-favorable statistics you failed to list in your post regarding Mormons. I hate to bring it up, but living in Utah, it is often in the news. Would you like to add “those” to your list? I am growing so weary of the “look how nice we are and how clean our houses are and how many eagle scouts we have…” to prove you are the right church.
I have news for you - Jesus came for sinners and not to make everyone cookie-cuttter cute. He loves those who are not so fortunate, not so pretty, not so nice - we are all His Church. His Church is for all of us, warts and all.

I stand by what I said. I have nothing further to add.

 

[zerinus]

Is it just me, or is there a sense that the Mormon Church has quite an impact on the USA?

I would say the Mormon Church certainly punches above its weight in the United States. If you look at the number of Mormons who are active and successful in politics, in business, in education, in science etc., you will find that there is a disproportionately large number of them given the size of the religion.

There are several threads on them here - they don’t have nearly the same perceived impact in Canada.

United States is a more religious country than almost any other in the Western world; so religion in general is taken more seriously there than elsewhere. Canada is a godless country by comparison!

Could someone explain this to me?

Mormonism started in the United States; and although there are now more Mormons outside the US than there are in it, it is still the country with the largest number of Mormons; so by just sheer numbers they tend to be more influential in the US than elsewhere.

 

[zerinus]

You cannot, on the one hand, claim that the Catholic Church unraveled, lost “priesthood authority”, became an abomination and corrupted the truth of the Gospel, and then turn around and give it accolades as being a “respected ancient institution”, a “great Christian institution worthy of our love and respect” which preserved “the Christian Tradition in the world”.

I certainly can and do! I distinguish between the Christian Church that emerged after the Apostasy eventually with the Pope at its head, and the one that went into Apostasy at the end of the first century. The emergent church was a mixture of the “wheat and tares” (Matthew 13:24-30). There was good and bad mixed in it. But in general the institution has been a beneficial and valuable one.

Mormonism “need not in any way come into conflict with Catholicism”? The Catholic Church considers Mormonism so far removed from Christianity that it does not even consider it to be heretical, but a different religion altogether.

I don’t know about that; but I see other hands behind some recent policy changes by the Catholic Church regarding the LDS Church; and I don’t think that it changes things between the two churches a lot.

The Mormon church has used unbelievably derogatory language throughout the years to describe Catholicism. How can you possibly say there is no conflict when about the only thing we agree upon is that God exists? This forum provides more than ample evidence of this truth.

That is a bit of an exaggeration. There has been some of that in the past as I have mentioned, and they were mistakes which have been rectified.

 

[zerinus]

The greatest proof for the fallacy of Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. Much of it is lifted wholesale – word for word – out of the King James Bible, Archaeology disproves the existence of the alleged inhabitants of the United States or anywhere in the New World from “600 B.C. to about A.D. 421” who are the subject of the BOM. It has many, many flaws not only in language – it’s amusing that it quotes Shakespeare – but also in metallurgy and other sciences. Mormons defend the BOM vociferously, but logic and science prove it untrue. To posit that the language of 600 B.C. was the 16th century English of the KJV is totally ludicrous. The BOM is disproven not only by archaeology but also by genetics. Joseph Smith claimed that he translated it, with the aid of “magic peep stones,” from golden plates written in “Reformed Egyptian” – a language unknown to linguists, Egyptologists, and other scholars. The golden plates were so valuable that following “translation” they had to be taken to heaven by an angel – unseen by anyone but the “glass looker” himself. That’s the description of Joseph Smith’s occupation as recorded by the New York court where he was found guilty of fraud for claiming the ability to find buried treasure by looking at magic peep stones in his hat.

The population of the U.S. was illiterate, uneducated, and gullible in 1830 when Mormonism and its Book of Mormon were first touted. They were largely farmers. A long list of novel religions were born in the U.S.A. around the same time, including the Disciples of Christ, Seventh Day Adventism, the Salvation Army, the JWs, Christian Science, and Pentecostals.

Jim Dandy

What you are saying is not correct; and it is so far out that it does not deserve a detailed reply.

 

[AlabamaCatholic]

The original post alludes to a very popular claim by Mormons: Either they’ve got the truth (Catholics), or we’ve got it (Mormons). Nothing could be further from the truth.

Either the Catholic Church is the One True Church established by our Lord or Christianity should entirely be rejected, in fact, everything is preposterous. Oftentimes people ask Catholics, “If you weren’t Catholic what would you be?” Too often even well-meaning Catholics respond, “Eastern Orthodox,” or “Anglican.”

If the Catholic Church is not who She claims to be then the entire foundation of the Christian faith is destroyed.

 

[aquabatix]

The original post alludes to a very popular claim by Mormons: Either they’ve got the truth (Catholics), or we’ve got it (Mormons). Nothing could be further from the truth.

Either the Catholic Church is the One True Church established by our Lord or Christianity should entirely be rejected, in fact, everything is preposterous. Oftentimes people ask Catholics, “If you weren’t Catholic what would you be?” Too often even well-meaning Catholics respond, “Eastern Orthodox,” or “Anglican.”

If the Catholic Church is not who She claims to be then the entire foundation of the Christian faith is destroyed.

 

[ParkerD]

The original post alludes to a very popular claim by Mormons: Either they’ve got the truth (Catholics), or we’ve got it (Mormons). Nothing could be further from the truth.

Either the Catholic Church is the One True Church established by our Lord or Christianity should entirely be rejected, in fact, everything is preposterous. Oftentimes people ask Catholics, “If you weren’t Catholic what would you be?” Too often even well-meaning Catholics respond, “Eastern Orthodox,” or “Anglican.”

If the Catholic Church is not who She claims to be then the entire foundation of the Christian faith is destroyed.

AlabamaCatholic,

I can certainly understand why you and anyone using a human perspective and rationale would think that God would not actually allow the appearance on earth that knowledge of His plan of salvation and the authority of His church was temporarily allowed to be “taken into the wilderness” and thus the beast was allowed to “make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Revelation 13:7)

From the human perspective, that does not make sense for such a thing to be allowed to happen. But John did write about such a vision of such a prophetic event in the future history of the world as he was seeing in vision, and he wrote about seeing “another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” (Revelation 14:6, 7)

So John saw that Christ’s work would ultimately be triumphant, just as He Himself had said, and that Christ’s congregation of believers would be built upon the Rock foundation of belief and trust in Him, just as He had taught and Moses and Isaiah had taught.

 

[catholic-rcia]

AlabamaCatholic,

I can certainly understand why you and anyone using a human perspective and rationale would think that God would not actually allow the appearance on earth that knowledge of His plan of salvation and the authority of His church was temporarily allowed to be “taken into the wilderness” and thus the beast was allowed to “make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Revelation 13:7)

From the human perspective, that does not make sense for such a thing to be allowed to happen. But John did write about such a vision of such a prophetic event in the future history of the world as he was seeing in vision, and he wrote about seeing “another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” (Revelation 14:6, 7)

So John saw that Christ’s work would ultimately be triumphant, just as He Himself had said, and that Christ’s congregation of believers would be built upon the Rock foundation of belief and trust in Him, just as He had taught and Moses and Isaiah had taught.

So you Parker our different right? You are using a godlike judgment of what is written. Satan said you would be able to do this in the garden of Eden. We Christians are using mere human judgment correct?

This is my judgment; this is how I see the Church that Christ built:
“Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (Revelation 14:6, 7)

This is every Mass ever performed giving all weight and glory to the first…Jesus

The angel you should fear, or rather be cautious about would be the one not found in the gospels, the one that brings another Gospel. The angel you point to is in the Gospel and is a good angel. This angel does not bring forth another gospel, rather the gospel itself. …in Jesus

“Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (…Jesus) (Revelation 14:6, 7)

This is how I read this scripture

Always in Christ my Lord and my God
www.utahmission.com

 

[ParkerD]

So you Parker are different right? You are using a godlike judgment of what is written. Satan said you would be able to do this in the garden of Eden. We Christians are using mere human judgment correct?

This is my judgment; this is how I see the Church that Christ built:
“Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (Revelation 14:6, 7)

Hi, Catholic-RCIA,

I had wondered if someone would ask some sort of question like that. In order to have help beyond just the human perspective, what does one need? Does one need to listen to the deception of Satan who would have everyone think that it is not possible to “be wise” while on earth, or to “become like Christ”?

Or does one need the Holy Spirit?

You are probably familiar with 1 Corinthians 2. The answer is there.

As for worshipping Christ, that is certainly the key thing to do–the foundation of faith, as He is the Rock of faith. Worshipping Him leads to worshipping His Father, and leads to repentance, change and “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)