Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[KathleenGee]

The answer, Parker, to make such a sweeping judgment to invalidate Christ’s church cannot – and should not --be taken from one phrase in the Epistles – no less instead of Christ’s actual revelation of His Gospels while He was here on earth.

The foundation of the Catholic Church is found in the Event – not interpretations – of what happened at the Last Supper and at Pentecost.

The authentic application to Scripture is that its context is taken from its whole with the people of Salvation History.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ Jesus is the Mediator and Fullness of all Revelation, not Joseph Smith, USA.

CC65: God has said everything in His Word. "In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son. Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect, and unsurpassable Word. In Him, He has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2.

Mormons wonder why Catholics appear angry…it is because they are replacing Jesus with Smith, as well as with the ongoing white washing of the last 100 years of Mormon teachings and attitudes towards other Christians, and in particular Catholics.

“In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word – and he has no more to say…because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at one by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.” St. John of the Cross.

And it is foolish to take one phrase from the writings of St. Paul and use it to justify a new church not founded by the Word of God.

 

[brumano]

Not that I accept the premises of the OP but if Catholicism is compared in Truth to Mormonism compared in Truth then the telling sign will be judged not only in teaching of Faith, but of Morals. The Cathoic Church has always kept the marital bond between one man and one woman, sacred…until death do they part. Mormonism taught and practiced polygamy; I don’t know if they still do or if some mormon cults still practice it but they definetly did at some time in their church history and that represents an irreparable departure from Moral Truth.

 

[lax16]

I stand by what I said. I have nothing further to add.

So, the Catholic Church is worthy of respect? This whole apostasy thing has been overblown by the Mormons? I find this absolutely fascinating…I think backpeddling must be a skill required for all LDS apologists.

 

[onenow1]

I don’t think that Mormons hide their books, just most of the world is not aware of them, and so you wouldn’t find them in public places such as libraries. In Utah the public libraries carry the major Mormon books.

Rebecca here’s the problem with all protesters of the Catholic Church, in my opinion below.

Malachi 3: 6, "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever.

In other words,God does not change His eternal plans ! This is why I believe the Catholic Truth Society is plausable.

Matt. 16: 15-17.

God Bless

 

[AlabamaCatholic]

No Mormon missionary that has ever visited my home (and there have been several pairs) have given an adequate description of the so called Great Apostasy, and they become defensive when pressed on it.

As a somewhat humorous (but sad) sidenote, an LDS missionary on the official website of Joseph Smith’s fabricated religion admitted to me that the “prophet” could have another revelation that blacks can no longer be admitted to pastoral positions, just as used to be the case in Mormonism.

Mormonism is a religion chock full of contradictions and man-made rules and regulations based on the tastes of each particular leader at any given time in history. Any religion that teaches revelation can contradict other revelation is absurd by any definition.

 

[KathleenGee]

Pray for the Mormons…I only go so far …because as was said here, the apostasy happening after the death of the last apostle…means that Christ made a mistake, and you have to start all over again, 1800 years later…the time gap obviously bringing forth erroneous thinking, history and its disputes.

So if we had an apostasy, – and the Mormons can have successors but the Apostles couldn’t is a blaring error.

 

[AlabamaCatholic]

Amen.

Make no mistake about it, any attempt on the part of Mormons to claim, “It’s either the Catholics or us,” that have the truth is a horrendous statement meant to chip away at the faith of Catholics through a subtle “foot in the door” technique. Mormons are mostly people with good intentions and morals (though we do have some differences with them here), but it is a false religion that rejects Our Lord’s divinity and is further from the truth than even the most distorted Protestant sects.

 

[zerinus]

So, the Catholic Church is worthy of respect?

Absolutely. I love it! I wish I could be a Catholic and a Mormon at the same time!

This whole apostasy thing has been overblown by the Mormons?

I never said that. What do you mean?

I find this absolutely fascinating…I think backpeddling must be a skill required for all LDS apologists.

No back-peddling. What gave you that wrong idea?

 

[SteveVH]

I certainly can and do! I distinguish between the Christian Church that emerged after the Apostasy eventually with the Pope at its head, and the one that went into Apostasy at the end of the first century. The emergent church was a mixture of the “wheat and tares” (Matthew 13:24-30). There was good and bad mixed in it. But in general the institution has been a beneficial and valuable one.

The Catholic Church has never been without a Pope; its first was Peter. Also, it is not the people in the Church that make it holy, it is Jesus Christ, its head, that makes it holy. Are there not good and bad (“wheat and tares”) mixed in the Mormon Church?
I understand from you that your sins are so mild that you have no need for confession. Is this true of everyone in your church?

I don’t know about that; but I see other hands behind some recent changes by the Catholic Church regarding the LDS Church; and I don’t think that it changes things between the two churches a lot.

I have no idea what you are talking about. What “other hands” and what “recent changes”.

That is a bit of an exaggeration. There has been some of that in the past as I have mentioned, and they were mistakes which have been rectified.

Its not an exaggeration when you are on the receiving end and hear others describe Christ’s one, true Church as a whore and an abomination. It is the offense against God that is so troubling.

 

[zerinus]

Its not an exaggeration when you are on the receiving end and hear others describe Christ’s one, true Church as a whore and an abomination. It is the offense against God that is so troubling.

Very few Mormons have ever done that, and they were ill informed. Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church has never made any mistakes in its long history?

 

[KathleenGee]

You can put out the same issues and they are answered over and over again…

 

[SteveVH]

Very few Mormons have ever done that, and they were ill informed. Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church has never made any mistakes in its long history?

Of course not. As one of my favorite priests described the Church “It is a divine institution made up of sinners.” But there is a difference in the way we speak about other faiths. We consider the majority of “Protestant” denominations to be our brothers and sisters in the Lord, even though not in full communion. For those faiths such as Mormon, Jehovahs Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists (all which grew out of the Adventist movement of the mid 1800’s) we consider to be all together other religions, as in non-Christian. This is not meant in a derogatory way. It is based upon the simple truth that these religions do not accept the basic tenants of Christianty, most especially the nature of God in the Holy Trinity, so they are, by their own choice, not Christian as Christianity had been understood and defined for the first 1,830 years of its history. But I have never, ever heard a derogatory statement made by my Church concerning any of these. For the most part, other faiths are not even mentioned from the pulpit, but if they are, it is in the most charitable manner, at least in my experience.

 

[zerinus]

Of course not. As one of my favorite priests described the Church “It is a divine institution made up of sinners.” But there is a difference in the way we speak about other faiths. We consider the majority of “Protestant” denominations to be our brothers and sisters in the Lord, even though not in full communion. For those faiths such as Mormon, Jehovahs Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists (all which grew out of the Adventist movement of the mid 1800’s) we consider to be all together other religions, as in non-Christian. This is not meant in a derogatory way. It is based upon the simple truth that these religions do not accept the basic tenants of Christianty, most especially the nature of God in the Holy Trinity, so they are, by their own choice, not Christian as Christianity had been understood and defined for the first 1,830 years of its history. But I have never, ever heard a derogatory statement made by my Church concerning any of these. For the most part, other faiths are not even mentioned from the pulpit, but if they are, it is in the most charitable manner, at least in my experience.

I thought the question was what Mormons think of Catholicism, not what Catholics think of Mormonism. Notwithstanding what I said, Mormons regard historical Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) to be apostate religions.

 

[catholic-rcia]

I thought the question was what Mormons think of Catholicism, not what Catholics think of Mormonism. Notwithstanding what I said, Mormons regard historical Christianity (Catholic and Protestant) to be apostate religions.

For me Zerinus this falls under the Commandment
“Thou shall not bear false witness” You are bearing false witness and I am not sure if you
Are innocent in this. I hope you are but you have been around this site for awhile now.
Especially a problem when this false witness is against the Church Christ established.
Therefore against Christ Himself as we are the body of Christ. Something that should be faced head on. A choice that can be made either way in ones life.

 

[bluelake]

I’m a strong Catholic who loves researching other religions to learn about them, and recently I’ve been researching Mormonism just for fun. I think it’s interesting once you get into all the different denominations and what not, but I digress.

I found this on YouTube and thought it was interesting

This is from an account of Orson F. Whitney, who was an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints:
"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquanted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, your are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."

Here’s the link to the video: youtube.com/watch?v=vktEaSevdfE
The video is the same as above, but with nice music in the background.

I thought it was an interesting point. I would like to know what you guys here thought.

Though if I were a betting man, I’d put my money on the Catholic Church.

SDB,
Catholics and Protestants believe in the same Jesus Christ. (Born of the Virgin Mary.)
Mormons are outside of the teachings of Christianity.
They embrace the teachings of Joseph Smith…
See 1Tim.1:1-7

God bless,
bluelake

 

[catholic-rcia]

Hi, Catholic-RCIA,

I had wondered if someone would ask some sort of question like that. In order to have help beyond just the human perspective, what does one need? Does one need to listen to the deception of Satan who would have everyone think that it is not possible to “be wise” while on earth, or to “become like Christ”?

Or does one need the Holy Spirit?

You are probably familiar with 1 Corinthians 2. The answer is there.

As for worshipping Christ, that is certainly the key thing to do–the foundation of faith, as He is the Rock of faith. Worshipping Him leads to worshipping His Father, and leads to repentance, change and “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)

I go with the Holy Spirit. As to 1 cor 2 the Church, Christ has given us the Sacrament of confession to make up for our short comings. As to Satan he did tell us we could have wisdom and this is the cause of the fall of mankind. Only Jesus has Wisdom, with the help of His Holy Spirit we get to share in His Wisdom. But we are not wise on our own as Satan would suggest to us. Apart from Jesus we have nothing, we are nothing. Our perfection is found only in Christ who created us and gives us Himself as the greatest gift we could have. We are made perfect in Him by rejecting the notion that we can be perfect in our own rite. So you see its all about Jesus. We get to hang with Him and this is what makes us special.

utahmission.com/pages/cLords_interest.html

 

[ParkerD]

I go with the Holy Spirit. As to 1 cor 2 the Church, Christ has given us the Sacrament of confession to make up for our short comings. As to Satan he did tell us we could have wisdom and this is the cause of the fall of mankind. Only Jesus has Wisdom, with the help of His Holy Spirit we get to share in His Wisdom. But we are not wise on our own as Satan would suggest to us. Apart from Jesus we have nothing, we are nothing. Our perfection is found only in Christ who created us and gives us Himself as the greatest gift we could have. We are made perfect in Him by rejecting the notion that we can be perfect in our own rite. So you see its all about Jesus. We get to hang with Him and this is what makes us special.

Catholic-RCIA,
Are you saying the “sacrament of confession” was given in 1 Corinthians 2? Do you think repentance ought to accompany “confession”, and that as a person repents they will be making changes in their life so that they become a better person?

Are you saying Solomon was wrong to ask for wisdom, and that the Bible is wrong in saying that God gave him wisdom?

We certainly can’t be perfect “in our own right”, and we do need Him to lift us up and provide unmerited grace, if that’s what you mean.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

The institution of the sacrament of confession was given by Christ to His apostles when He entered their room on the evening of the Resurrection…that He gave the apostles His power to forgive sins. When we go to confession we are confessing our sins to Christ present in His minister, chosen, consecrated in spirit and truth. The priest absolves our sins through the Holy Spirit.

The Sacrament of Confession/Penance/Reconciliation was instituted on Resurrection Sunday by Christ to His apostles. This is our reference…an event, not a phrase in the Epistles. All of Christ’s work was completed in the Gospels. Christ is the Final Word, not St. Paul.

Every Catholic/Orthodox priest knows that he did not chose his vocation, but that Christ chose him, and he accepts and rejoices in his life in service to the Lord as minister of the Word and Christ’s sacraments – the outward, concrete, non-arbitrary visible signs of Christ in this world, Who promised He would never leave us, that if we ate of His Body and Blood, we would have eternal life.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

The institution of the sacrament of confession was given by Christ to His apostles when He entered their room on the evening of the Resurrection…that He gave the apostles His power to forgive sins. When we go to confession we are confessing our sins to Christ present in His minister, chosen, consecrated in spirit and truth. The priest absolves our sins through the Holy Spirit.

The Sacrament of Confession/Penance/Reconciliation was instituted on Resurrection Sunday by Christ to His apostles. This is our reference…an event, not a phrase in the Epistles. All of Christ’s work was completed in the Gospels. Christ is the Final Word, not St. Paul.

Every Catholic/Orthodox priest knows that he did not chose his vocation, but that Christ chose him, and he accepts and rejoices in his life in service to the Lord as minister of the Word and Christ’s sacraments – the outward, concrete, non-arbitrary visible signs of Christ in this world, Who promised He would never leave us, that if we ate of His Body and Blood, we would have eternal life.

KathleenGee,

As you may be aware, the New Testament doesn’t say nor does it imply that the apostles had a delegable “power to forgive sins”.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

They would need the inspiration of the Holy Ghost as to the worthiness of the person and the sincerity of a person’s repentance. (This means they would need revelation, by the way–so ultimately the Holy Ghost is providing the guidance to the apostles about what should be done in each and every case.)

But they were not told they could delegate that authority. That authority was given singularly to the apostles–only to them, not to anyone else.

Have a great day.