Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[Jim_Dandy]

Thanks, Jim…I just drew on a book regarding the Mass of the early Christians…there was a deliberate secrecy in protecting the faith in times of persecution…I just put it in on the date of the Mormon perception of the Apostasy.

Kathleen, Mormons claim that “the Great Apostasy” occurred after the death of the last Apostle at the close of the first Christian century. The Catholic Church selected 27 of her own writings and named them the New Testament and formed the Bible at the end of the fourth century. So Mormons base their religion on the Bible that came from this “apostate church” centuries after the “Apostasy” allegedly occurred.

An effect cannot be greater than its cause. An infallible book cannot come from an apostate church.

Dilemma for Mormons? Yep! Does this prove their doctrine wrong? You betcha!

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Wow, thanks for the links! Listening to Deacon Seeven right now. :tiphat:

Miriam, I’m so glad you listened and are enjoying the interviews! The best antidote to Mormonism is the truth about its history.

Mormonism is also disproved by archaeology and genetics.

Jim Dandy

 

[ParkerD]

Kathleen, Mormons claim that “the Great Apostasy” occurred after the death of the last Apostle at the close of the first Christian century. The Catholic Church selected 27 of her own writings and named them the New Testament and formed the Bible at the end of the fourth century. So Mormons base their religion on the Bible that came from this “apostate church” centuries after the “Apostasy” allegedly occurred.

An effect cannot be greater than its cause. An infallible book cannot come from an apostate church.

Dilemma for Mormons? Yep! Does this prove their doctrine wrong? You betcha!

Jim Dandy

Jim,

I would say that on the contrary, the very words you have written from your heart show the unfortunate situation that you don’t really acknowledge where the words of the Bible came from in their inception. Your words, “an effect cannot be greater than its cause” show that you consider the “cause” of the Bible to be the Catholic church. That is completely wrong. The cause of the Bible, from its inception, was truly God, not man.

If God had not spoken, one asks, “would we have the words of God?” Then to whom should we owe gratitude and devotion for the words of the Bible? To the compilers of the words, or to God who gave the words?

Who was the cause of the words? A fourth century church? I hope no one who has been taught anything at all about the Bible thinks so.

 

[Marie5890]

I admit I am losing patience with people who are trying to be nice, be PC, playing whatever the word is with it comes to Mormonism.

This is the second week in Advent; John the Baptist was bold in his ministry, in his proclamation of the truth and word.

Mormons may be truly and authentically good and faithful people in their love and service to Our Lord.

Mormonism, however, at it’s core, is corrupt and twisted in it’s theology. Even if it’s most faithful and sincere followers are ignorant to that reality.

Mormon theology doesnt not resemble anything Our Lord taught His disciples. Whether the 12, the multitudes, or the closer 3 of Peter, James, and John.

No personal offense to my Mormon brothers and sisters, but Mormonism is simply a very corrupt form of the Gospel that Our Lord taught us.

God Bless…! And may you have a fruitful and productive Advent and Christmas seasons!!

 

[ParkerD]

I admit I am losing patience with people who are trying to be nice, be PC, playing whatever the word is with it comes to Mormonism.

This is the second week in Advent; John the Baptist was bold in his ministry, in his proclamation of the truth and word.

Mormons may be truly and authentically good and faithful people in their love and service to Our Lord.

Mormonism, however, at it’s core, is corrupt and twisted in it’s theology. Even if it’s most faithful and sincere followers are ignorant to that reality.

Mormon theology doesnt not resemble anything Our Lord taught His disciples. Whether the 12, the multitudes, or the closer 3 of Peter, James, and John.

No personal offense to my Mormon brothers and sisters, but Mormonism is simply a very corrupt form of the Gospel that Our Lord taught us.

God Bless…! And may you have a fruitful and productive Advent and Christmas seasons!!

Marie5890,

The impurities that crept into the doctrines presented as “true doctrines” by those taking the position such as you have taken here, can be easily detected by a careful reading of the Bible (though perhaps not the currently used Catholic Bible, due to word changes that are meaning changes). That is why the Protestant Reformation happened. People during that important time read the words of the Bible and said to themselves, “this is not a match with what these priests are teaching”.

An earnest reader of the Bible can detect the changes in doctrine, but one who sidesteps the careful reading and instead makes assumptions, can arrive at the very kinds of misjudgments that supplant truth with their own vindicated self-justification.

The Bible teaches with clarity, but inspiration is helpful in the reading of it–in the least, a careful study of the intended meaning of its ultimate Author.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Jim,

I would say that on the contrary, the very words you have written from your heart show the unfortunate situation that you don’t really acknowledge where the words of the Bible came from in their inception. Your words, “an effect cannot be greater than its cause” show that you consider the “cause” of the Bible to be the Catholic church. That is completely wrong. The cause of the Bible, from its inception, was truly God, not man.

If God had not spoken, one asks, “would we have the words of God?” Then to whom should we owe gratitude and devotion for the words of the Bible? To the compilers of the words, or to God who gave the words?

Who was the cause of the words? A fourth century church? I hope no one who has been taught anything at all about the Bible thinks so.

I’ve always seen gratitude as something experienced or felt like love or delight, not as a debt, so it seems there should be enough to go around.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Marie5890,

The impurities that crept into the doctrines presented as “true doctrines” by those taking the position such as you have taken here, can be easily detected by a careful reading of the Bible (though perhaps not the currently used Catholic Bible, due to word changes that are meaning changes). That is why the Protestant Reformation happened. People during that important time read the words of the Bible and said to themselves, “this is not a match with what these priests are teaching”.

An earnest reader of the Bible can detect the changes in doctrine, but one who sidesteps the careful reading and instead makes assumptions, can arrive at the very kinds of misjudgments that supplant truth with their own vindicated self-justification.

The Bible teaches with clarity, but inspiration is helpful in the reading of it–in the least, a careful study of the intended meaning of its ultimate Author.

Parker, I was on a journey for 39 years before I found Christ’s Church. It is where I found Him to be. To my surprise it ended up being the 2000 year old Catholic Church. The world told me not to look there, my pride new better than to look there. My LDS Grandmother knew that I should never go there. My sister knew I should have never looked there. Because I am not a sheep I walked through that door and I said tell me who you are. As I received the answers as to who they were I found them to be who I am.

Unlike you Parker I find everything about the Catholic Church to be from Christ. I believe in all that she teaches not because someone told me I have to believe but only because I had no choice than to believe.

When you meet truth it does not lie unlike me. When you meet love itself you know you are loved. I find only truth in this faith and it is astounding in its depth. It goes against what the world has to offer, it goes contrary to pride. I do not believe to be proud, I have come to believe because I have encountered this pride and it was an encounter with me.

I am the cross upon my saviors back and because of His Church I understand this. You just have to let go and allow Jesus to carry you home. When you can do this you die, because you have to in order to live.

There is one Spirit in which we are all joined, no other. There is one home, one faith and one God. For me it was all found in my own confessions.

I am a sinner and Jesus is my savior. Parker your words could be offensive, as if you are smarter than the rest. But for me they are reality in the sense that not all discover that it is about going down rather than going up.

I will keep praying for you Parker out of my love for Jesus. Simply because I do know how much He loves you. Stand back tonight and re-read what you have written. Do see the pride flowing out of your writing? It cannot feel good; it has to feel not right. Pray about this. Be silent and listen.

God Bless
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Jim,

I would say that on the contrary, the very words you have written from your heart show the unfortunate situation that you don’t really acknowledge where the words of the Bible came from in their inception. Your words, “an effect cannot be greater than its cause” show that you consider the “cause” of the Bible to be the Catholic church. That is completely wrong. The cause of the Bible, from its inception, was truly God, not man.

The Bible is the word of God written in the words of man. The proximate cause of the Scriptures is God. The secondary cause is the Church. The written words came from the Church. I say again, an infallible book cannot come from an allegedly apostate Church.

If God had not spoken, one asks, “would we have the words of God?”

The sacred writers of the NT were not amanuenses. God did not dictate the words. He inspired the writers to express in their own words exactly what He wanted them to write.

Then to whom should we owe gratitude and devotion for the words of the Bible? To the compilers of the words, or to God who gave the words?

We give gratitude to the Holy Spirit for the inspiration, and to His Agent, the Catholic Church, for the written words. BTW, how do you know God gave the words?

Who was the cause of the words? A fourth century church? I hope no one who has been taught anything at all about the Bible thinks so.

The cause of the written words was the first century Church founded by Christ in A.D. 33 who, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, wrote during the first Christian century what eventually became the NT. At the close of the fourth century, she finalized her selection of the contents, canonized the writings, and named them the New Testament at the Councils of Rome (A.D. 382) and again at the Councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419). At the very same Councils, the Church canonized the 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles and named them the Old Testament. She named her entire collection of sacred writings “tá Biblia” – the Little Books – the Bible.

An infallible effect (the Bible) can only be produced by an infallible cause (the Catholic Church). Infallible interpretation of an infallible book requires an infallible teacher. The Mormon “Great Apostasy” myth is myth indeed.

Jim Dandy

I

 

[ParkerD]

The Bible is the word of God written in the words of man…

BTW, how do you know God gave the words?

…
Jim Dandy
I

Jim Dandy,

Of course the words are written in the words of man, so man can read them. How I know that God gave the words is by the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost confirming that the truths of the Bible are true and are from God, and by living by the teachings of the Bible so that as the Savior taught, “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God…” (John 7:17) I know of the doctrine by that very means. The Savior taught a very important principle in that teaching.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Jim Dandy,

Of course the words are written in the words of man, so man can read them. How I know that God gave the words is by the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost confirming that the truths of the Bible are true and are from God, and by living by the teachings of the Bible so that as the Savior taught, “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God…” (John 7:17) I know of the doctrine by that very means. The Savior taught a very important principle in that teaching.

Parker, what your faith does is take the words from the Bible and then place them in an entirely distorted context. This is in the same category as bearing false witness. Getting others to do the same against Christ’s True Church.

As a Child I too learned how Jesus walked aross the ocean to America. But as an adult I understand the context of that scripture. You can make a child prouder to be an American with such context along with some really neat images, pictures found in the LDS Ensign. (Family) But some of us grow up and find out who’s children we really are. I for one am Gods Child, my parents just borrowed me for awhile.

Just the fact that God is one un changing God and that the Mormon god is a god of progression is enough for me to point out that your faith is “other”

What Jim Dandy is writing is truth plain and simple.

Parker, you write:

“Of course the words are written in the words of man, so man can read them.”

This kind of writing is just going down into the mud. And when you or other LDS here start doing this, this is where it goes round and round.

Jim Dandy has brought forth plain and simple, historical, authentic and Biblical facts that cannot be denied at all. No grey areas, no shadows. It all comes back to the Holy trinity, one God and One Spirit. Jim, Steve, Rebecca and all the others here are in contact with this One Spirit. You are coming up against this and you have to have a sense of this. If you do and if you can let go, this is the Holy Spirit speaking to you Parker, the one we all here have come to know through the Sacraments, the one that loves us all so dearly.

God Bless
Rich
Logan Utah
www.utahmission.com

 

[JeanMichel]

Parker, what your faith does is take the words from the Bible and then place them in an entirely distorted context. This is in the same category as bearing false witness. Getting others to do the same against Christ’s True Church.

As a Child I too learned how Jesus walked aross the ocean to America. But as an adult I understand the context of that scripture. You can make a child prouder to be an American with such context along with some really neat images, pictures found in the LDS Ensign. (Family) But some of us grow up and find out who’s children we really are. I for one am Gods Child, my parents just borrowed me for awhile.

Just the fact that God is one un changing God and that the Mormon god is a god of progression is enough for me to point out that your faith is “other”

What Jim Dandy is writing is truth plain and simple.

Parker, you write:

“Of course the words are written in the words of man, so man can read them.”

This kind of writing is just going down into the mud. And when you or other LDS here start doing this, this is where it goes round and round.

Jim Dandy has brought forth plain and simple, historical, authentic and Biblical facts that cannot be denied at all. No grey areas, no shadows. It all comes back to the Holy trinity, one God and One Spirit. Jim, Steve, Rebecca and all the others here are in contact with this One Spirit. You are coming up against this and you have to have a sense of this. If you do and if you can let go, this is the Holy Spirit speaking to you Parker, the one we all here have come to know through the Sacraments, the one that loves us all so dearly.

God Bless
Rich
Logan Utah
www.utahmission.com

Rich, I am curious at your post. Do you think the Holy Spirit talks to Mormons or do you think Mormons move so far from the Spirit because of their beliefs that they just cannot hear God talking? At what point do Mormons go too far to hear God?

 

[KathleenGee]

JeanMichael…

If you don’ mind me stepping in here…it is when we Christians split away from Christ’s constant prayer when He was on earth…that ‘we will all be one’…

The Council of Trent declared that the 7 books of Scripture removed by one person, Martin Luther—not the character of Church, a gathering of people with chosen, consecrated souls as administrators --were indeed authored by God through human hand.

Martin Luther is the one who change the wording of Scripture…we are not to remove even one word of Scripture because it will then bear different results – using the word ‘alone’. He also removed one of the apostles’ writings – St. James who stressed true faith brings results in living out the Gospel in charity. He removed Maccabees that stated it is good to pray for the dead…

Mormons take it farther and baptize the dead.

He removed Tobit that showed the healing work of St. Raphael, Judith, Esther…women of the Bible.

The worst anti-semitic writings in Christian are attributed to Martin Luther…and I must say akin to the kind of 1800’s writing of the Mormon leadership.

In essence, Luther broke away from the Church and brought the Bible down to individual interpretation. I look at our country, and if the Christians were a united block, our faith would be more effective in preventing alot of bad things others in our country promote around the world.

Finally, Luther was a very scrupulous person and had emotional problems. So many times in the Church, people leave – not because of theology, but because of personal issues.

Commenting from a Jew who became Catholic, Protestantism laid the foundation for the enlightenment where men do not need God or religion, divorce and the breakdown of the family unity.

 

[Javl]

Parker:

My dear friend, all that has been said by Catholics in the previous posts on this thread are truly, plainly, and clearly, God’s truth.

The Bible that you ( the LDS ) use is a product of the Catholic Church. It was a Catholic council that assembled it. It was assembled many years after St. John died and the Church was supposed to have apostacized.

You LDS claim that it has errors in it and that it has not been, or was not, translated correctly, yet you all continue to use it and quote from it. Why? Because it is God’s Word, and upon close examination the LDS claim is false. How do we know this when the latest form of scripture we have is in Latin? We know because, no matter what, God’s word is unchangeable. The Catholic Church down through the ages has had many opportunites to alter, change, add, remove, etc. portions, entire books, verses, etc. from the Bible, yet it has not done so ( as has some other so-clled Christian religions ).The Church has remained true to Jesus. This has been proven by scholars and scientists many times over.

The Bible, as God’s message stands alone. It needs no adjunct such as the “Key to the Scriptures”, “The New World Translation”, “The Book of Mormon” and so on. All of these are spurious.

Parker, I enjoy our communications. You are a very intelligent and devout person willing to give all to and for God, as are we all. The only trouble is, is that you’re in the wrong place and are seriously putting your soul in jeopardy by insisting on remaining there ( as are all LDS ). I am deeply concerened and pray constantly that your eyes and heart be truly opened and receptive to God’s real truth. Please think it over. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[catholic-rcia]

Rich, I am curious at your post. Do you think the Holy Spirit talks to Mormons or do you think Mormons move so far from the Spirit because of their beliefs that they just cannot hear God talking? At what point do Mormons go too far to hear God?

It take a Christian Baptism to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I beleive they listen to an angel of light that apears to them to be Christ like as far a they have been taught about who Christ is to them. But know I do not belive they have the indwelling Holy Spirit. They get nudges from the outside, but not from the inside outward. This has been my experiance. Including my own self.

Good people, many yes. Like anyone else some “not so good” But all loved!

I have learned with all of your help, it is not about being good that gets us to heaven, to be with Christ forever. For example I have a really good hammer. Works great! But it won’t make it to heaven. Just a hammer! No life of its own until it is used.

Its all about Jesus being good. Me being a good hammer for Him. One that he can use. When I alet Him use me, that’s when I am alive. When I do not let Him use me I go to Confession and again, that’s when I am alive.

Mother Teresa uses the example of a pencil.

As a Mormon I once thought I was a really a good / special person. Ever since I found out to my shock that I was not I give thanks to the Catholic Church that helped me find that out. I was livingb in a world of transactions. If I do this I get that. Even a child will behave good when there is a cookie as a reward. How much more will vanity, self importance work on us to do good?

But no loss at all as to being shown how small Ireally am. I found Jesus. He makes all of it up and tons more. Plus He loves me so much. I don’t care so much how others look at me now. Its just not importamt to focus on. I care about my relationship with Jesus and this does not always give me what I once wanted. For some it gets them crucified right?

In Christ
Rich

 

[Jim_Dandy]

There is absolutely no historical truth that the true faith ended after the death of St. John.

Right on, Kathleen. Absolutely none. Zero. Zip.

If there was truth that we had a former Jewish lost tribe in America…certainly the Holy Spirit would protect these ‘documents’.

The DNA of American Indians has been traced to non-semetic sources. And there is no archaeological evidence that the peoples written about in the Book of Mormon ever lived anywhere in the Americas. There’s one thing we know for sure – humans leave tracks. There are no tracks of the Nephites or Lamanites. The Book of Mormon is fiction, pure fiction, plagiarized from the KJV and several stories that circulated in agrarian, gullible, and mostly illiterate19th century America. The fact that it’s still believed today in spite of the evidence is an indication that the gullibility factor is still rampant. Some people can’t resist the promise of becoming gods or goddesses. The desire to be like God was the original sin; human nature has not changed.

Jim Dandy

 

[JeanMichel]

It take a Christian Baptism to receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I beleive they listen to an angel of light that apears to them to be Christ like as far a they have been taught about who Christ is to them. But know I do not belive they have the indwelling Holy Spirit. They get nudges from the outside, but not from the inside outward. This has been my experiance. Including my own self.

Good people, many yes. Like anyone else some “not so good” But all loved!

I have learned with all of your help, it is not about being good that gets us to heaven, to be with Christ forever. For example I have a really good hammer. Works great! But it won’t make it to heaven. Just a hammer! No life of its own until it is used.

Its all about Jesus being good. Me being a good hammer for Him. One that he can use. When I alet Him use me, that’s when I am alive. When I do not let Him use me I go to Confession and again, that’s when I am alive.

Mother Teresa uses the example of a pencil.

As a Mormon I once thought I was a really a good / special person. Ever since I found out to my shock that I was not I give thanks to the Catholic Church that helped me find that out. I was livingb in a world of transactions. If I do this I get that. Even a child will behave good when there is a cookie as a reward. How much more will vanity, self importance work on us to do good?

But no loss at all as to being shown how small Ireally am. I found Jesus. He makes all of it up and tons more. Plus He loves me so much. I don’t care so much how others look at me now. Its just not importamt to focus on. I care about my relationship with Jesus and this does not always give me what I once wanted. For some it gets them crucified right?

In Christ
Rich

Rich, the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit is different from being influenced by the Holy Spirit. The question I posed was if the Holy Spirit talks or influences Mormons? If not, why not. At what point did the Holy Spirit lose his sacred ability to touch the hearts of humanity when it comes to Mormons.

Frankly, I reject that notion entirely. The God I know can touch even the darkest heart and let in the Light of Holiness. Belief is not an invincible wall that keeps the Spirit away. This thought is heretical and has no place in Christ’s Church.

Mormons are just as susceptible to the Spirit as everyone else is. God is too great for what you are proposing.

Mormons seem to favor the Book of James just as much as Catholics do. More importantly, they believe that works are the natural product of a heart lead by Christ.

This ability to paint them black is a good way to burn them at the stake; make them evil, demented, and even below the attention of God. I tell you this day that they are God’s children as much as you and I are. He is alive in their life as much as He is in ours. If we let the Holy Spirit work without all the criticism, the result will be one faith. There will not be one faith until humanity (and specifically Christian churches en masse) stand aside, love one another, and let God guide us. Until then, there will be strife in the world between Christian churches and peace will not abide.

 

[onenow1]

. Mormons are just as susceptible to the Spirit as everyone else is. God is too great for what you are proposing. .

JM, otherwise how do we explain some coming back to Catholicism.

Peace

 

[catholic-rcia]

Rich, the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit is different from being influenced by the Holy Spirit. The question I posed was if the Holy Spirit talks or influences Mormons? If not, why not. At what point did the Holy Spirit lose his sacred ability to touch the hearts of humanity when it comes to Mormons.

Frankly, I reject that notion entirely. The God I know can touch even the darkest heart and let in the Light of Holiness. Belief is not an invincible wall that keeps the Spirit away. This thought is heretical and has no place in Christ’s Church.

Mormons are just as susceptible to the Spirit as everyone else is. God is too great for what you are proposing.

Mormons seem to favor the Book of James just as much as Catholics do. More importantly, they believe that works are the natural product of a heart lead by Christ.

This ability to paint them black is a good way to burn them at the stake; make them evil, demented, and even below the attention of God. I tell you this day that they are God’s children as much as you and I are. He is alive in their life as much as He is in ours. If we let the Holy Spirit work without all the criticism, the result will be one faith. There will not be one faith until humanity (and specifically Christian churches en masse) stand aside, love one another, and let God guide us. Until then, there will be strife in the world between Christian churches and peace will not abide.

I really do not know how to comment on all that. So many misunderstandings, judgments. I was raised by an LDS grandmother who was a pillar in my life. She was a great women. Again LDS. Yes, even before I myself was baptised I was still a good person because of God. I beleive that we are all Gods children and all loved equally.

But with this said I came out of Mormnonism because of the Catholic Church and now I worship the God of Christianity. For me I did not have the Holy Spirit back then like I do now because of my Catholic Baptism. I truly beleive with all of my heart that theri is only One God and this God is trinity. I did not beleive this as a Mormon. Heresy? You can be my judge.

I also believe that God can touch any heart at any time. And guide Him or her to a Christian Baptism to receive the Holy spirit. At the same time I beleive the thief on the Cross decided to be with God at his last breath and God said yes you will be with me in Paradise. Any time you are with Jesus this is heaven. He is heaven!

Again, yes God touches hearts of all kinds.
the Catholic Church is not exclusive to others, but we all have to go through the Cross of Christ in order to get to heaven. Christ is the Catholic Church. Even an Athiest in the end will be faced with do I go with Jesus or not.

At one time It was all about my family, at my last breath I would have chose them. Now I know I will go with Christ. I beleive this is where my familly will be. More than just an exalted man. My sole creator.

 

[Todd520]

So to be clear, both Catholics and LDS claim their respective sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation can result in the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

I believe both also claim that the permanent indwelling is exclusive to their respective religions. I would think the Holy Ghost is reading ones heart more so than the building sign on one’s church.

 

[Miriam1947]

So to be clear, both Catholics and LDS claim their respective sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation can result in the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

I believe both also claim that the permanent indwelling is exclusive to their respective religions. I would think the Holy Ghost is reading ones heart more so than the building sign on one’s church.

Todd why did you leave the Catholic Church and become LDS?

I converted to Catholicism in 2008 and I cannot picture ever leaving the Eucharist.