Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[catholic-rcia]

First cause?

I never looked as God as being a first cause other than Him creating our universe; He was as he was before the first cause that caused us. This would be God, the God of all that is, no beginning and no end, Alpha and Omega.

If He has created other earths so be it, I don’t know but why not as I do not believe his love is contained. If there are other earths that have a fallen people like us, those that severed the Chord of Grace in search of their own Wisdom than our God would save them as well.

He could do this even if there were earths without end. Just as He can listen to thousands of confessions at the same time without keeping a daily log, along with hearing the prayers of millions at the same time.

Like the most super computer we have ever known. So if there were a first cause, and I believe there was (Gods thought) this would be about us, not about God. As He is the author of this first cause. Saint Augustine said it well.
It is wrong to think of God as part of Creation as God is Creation itself.

We have to remember the Order of things. God-Creator
Man-Created by God.

As for me my progression is to God, once in Heaven (I do see the hear and now as heaven as well, glimpses) Once there I will be happy to stand with the angels forever giving Him thanks and praise for creating me, for loving me. I mean if this is not the gift found, disovered what is? Where nothing becomes something and knows it. Made special becasue His Spirit enlightens.

For me its like a magic carpet ride. Miracles, I tell people to just look in the mirror. No kidding at all.

Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[Javl]

Quoted by ParkerD:

But I’m not saying that is how things are. I am saying that is how things aren’t–that God has not worked in the universe in that way.

God created the universe without defying the law He ordained, that matter or energy (in either form) would not be created or destroyed. He also brought spirits into existence from intelligences that already existed, then allowed those spirits to choose what they would do and whom they would follow.

That opportunity of choice continues in this life. It is a wonderful blessing, made infinitely more of a blessing through the atoning grace of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Can you please show me where in any Judeo-Christian Scripture that your statement/explanation appears? If God is Omnipotent then absolutely nothing is impossible to/for Him. If God is Omniscient then He knows exactly what the results of His actions are. I’m sorry, my friend, but your explanation of God may hold for the Mormons but not for we mainline Christians.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[Jim_Dandy]

If they follow the bible and do as the bible says, and are saved, and accept jesus as their savior, I don’t know how they couldn’t go to heaven. Even if they have NO denomination.

Where in the Bible does it say that to be saved, one has to “accept Jesus as their savior”? As a former Protestant, I know what you mean by that. I also know it isn’t in the Bible. But as I told you in another post, Catholics “accept Jesus as their Savior” every time they receive Holy Communion – that’s every day or every Saturday or Sunday.

What about those of other religions or no religion who have never read the Bible?

What about 50% of the world’s population who are illiterate and can’t read anything? Can they be “saved”?

What about 20% of the U.S. population who are functionally illiterate?

There are several different collections of writings that different Christian groups call their “Bible.” Which one is the “real” Bible?

(excluding Mormons, who are not Christian, with their many books)

See this Methodist website and answer the question:
gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

-quote-- Catechism of the Catholic Church 847: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by his grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation. --end quote–

Note that they MAY achieve salvation - there’s no guarantee, even for Christians, who must do all that Christ commanded and persevere until the end (Mt 10:22).

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Recently I listened to all of the Journey Home programs on EWTN that featured converts to the Catholic Church who were former Mormons. I learned that Joseph Smith was caught with another woman, and his “revelation” that God “restored” the practice of polygamy followed. It was fascinating stuff.

My favorite part of the “Doctrine and Covenants” (one of the Mormon books they consider “scripture”) is where God says. “And let my handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those [wives] that have been given to my servant Joseph . . . And I command my handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment, she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not my law.” D&C 132:52, 54. heh heh The actual number of Smith’s plural wives has not been ascertained, but it was more than 48. Emma denied that there were any.

Here’s a link to all of the ex-Mormon programs for anyone who wants to hear them now or in the future. The page and program numbers change as new programs are added, but provide a reference point for locating them now or later. I found all of the programs well worth the time, about 55 minutes each.

ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp

Scroll down to “Past Journey Home Programs” and click on “watch and listen”

Page 1, #2, 11-29-2010, Barry Metzentine

Page 2, #56, 11-9-2009, Clyde Pearce
former Mormon bishop

Page 6, #160, 10-15-2007, Father Erik Richsteig
Pastor, St. James Catholic Church, Ogden, Utah

Page 11, #313, 7-19-2004, Deacon Steve Seever
(transitional deacon, ordination to the priesthood scheduled in 2005)
My personal favorite

Page 13, #375, 2-24-2003, Paul DuPre
excellent - often posts on the CA Forum

Page 14, #419, 2-18-2002, Dan Hadden

Page 19, #563, 10-23-1998, Thomas F. Smith
very knowledgeable

Jim Dandy

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here’s a link to all of the ex-Mormon programs for anyone who wants to hear them now or in the future. The page and program numbers change as new programs are added, but provide a reference point for locating them now or later. I found all of the programs well worth the time, about 55 minutes each.

ewtn.com/tv/live/journeyhome.asp

Scroll down to “Past Journey Home Programs” and click on “watch and listen”

Page 1, #2, 11-29-2010, Barry Metzentine

Page 2, #56, 11-9-2009, Clyde Pearce
former Mormon bishop

Page 6, #160, 10-15-2007, Father Erik Richsteig
Pastor, St. James Catholic Church, Ogden, Utah

Page 11, #313, 7-19-2004, Deacon Steve Seever
(transitional deacon, ordination to the priesthood scheduled in 2005)
My personal favorite

Page 13, #375, 2-24-2003, Paul DuPre
excellent - often posts on the CA Forum

Page 14, #419, 2-18-2002, Dan Hadden

Page 19, #563, 10-23-1998, Thomas F. Smith
very knowledgeable

Jim Dandy

Excellent list. Thanks.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Where in the Bible does it say that to be saved, one has to “accept Jesus as their savior”? As a former Protestant, I know what you mean by that. I also know it isn’t in the Bible. But as I told you in another post, Catholics “accept Jesus as their Savior” every time they receive Holy Communion – that’s every day or every Saturday or Sunday.

What about those of other religions or no religion who have never read the Bible?

What about 50% of the world’s population who are illiterate and can’t read anything? Can they be “saved”?

What about 20% of the U.S. population who are functionally illiterate?

There are several different collections of writings that different Christian groups call their “Bible.” Which one is the “real” Bible?

(excluding Mormons, who are not Christian, with their many books)

See this Methodist website and answer the question:
gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

-quote-- Catechism of the Catholic Church 847: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by his grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation. --end quote–

Note that they MAY achieve salvation - there’s no guarantee, even for Christians, who must do all that Christ commanded and persevere until the end (Mt 10:22).

Jim Dandy

Your first question: When I say to accept jesus as your savior, I am talking about accepting he died for your sins. That should be part of understanding why you want to be saved. He did die for your sins for you to go to heaven. The first step should be accepting he did this for YOU. If you accept that he died for your sins, you are accepting Christianity. That does not make you saved, that means you have accepted him as your savior. Big difference.
Second question: I have raised that question many times.
I will let God deal with them. I’m sure God knows their situation much better than you do, and I do not believe God can damn a person who has never heard the word of him, or does not understand it. Or at least, I don’t think he should. I will let him deal with those who have died yet have not heard the word of God in their lifetime. This also applies to aborted/still-born babies.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
Hmmmm. Mormonism didn’t exist until 1830 – born in the U.S.A. There was no Bible per se until the end of the fourth century and beginning of the fifth – born in Rome and confirmed in Hippo, Carthage, Florence, Trent. You say the Holy Ghost (a separate God, a personage of spirit in Mormonism) is your confirming witness that the Bible is true and is from God? Does this same “personage of spirit” tell you that the same Church that wrote the NT, selected the contents, canonized them, and formed the Bible is the same Church that became “Apostate” at the end of the first century?

Jim Dandy,

ParkerD responded:
The existence of inspired writings is not a proof about the compilers or transcribers or even translators, at all. People can gain enough inspiration from God to do good things (such as compile the Bible) without it being evidence that they have complete inspiration for everything they do.

Jim Dandy’s answer:**
Again, an effect (the Bible) cannot be greater than its cause (the Catholic Church). IOW, an infallible Bible requires an infallible source – the infallible Catholic Church. Mormonism lacks logic. It depends upon the teaching of Joseph Smith, the “glass looker” whose occupation was looking for buried treasure through magic peep stones in his hat in early 19th century America. **

ParkerD:
The departures from Biblical truths early on after the deaths of the apostles or the departure of John are easily found by reading the Bible itself. The Holy Ghost will always confirm religious truths to the sincere in heart who ask in faith.

**The poor maligned Holy Ghost – blamed for thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant, Mormon, JW, and other interpretations. Are your interpretations infallible? No? Then they are opinions – nothing more. **

Jim Dandy wrote:
How does this “spirit personage God” communicate with you? Do you get a “burning in the bosom” when you read the Bible, as you do for the Book of Mormon?

**ParkerD:**The burning in the bosom as the two disciples had on the road to Emmaus is one way the Holy Ghost is described. I am comfortable with describing it that way, and do gain that same inspiration reading the Bible and applying its teachings as reading the Book of Mormon.

Emotions and feelings are not evidence.

Jim Dandy wrote::
Did this “spirit-personage God” give you a list of the contents?

ParkerD:
You don’t understand. One asks in faith about truths, not about books or about contents.

But you claim these “truths” come from the Bible, no? If not, what is their origin?

Quote] Jim Dandy wrote::
Do you get a “burning in the bosom” as confirmation when you read each book?

ParkerD:
Again, the confirming witness is about truths, not about “books”. It is gained when reading truths and when asking about those truths with sincere prayer or meditation and with a willingness to live by the truths, thus establishing hope in Christ, charity, and a desire to be sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

**Do you get your "truths out of the air or out of the Bible? You have no way of knowing that a particular writing is inspired and belongs in the Bible. Your reasoning is circular – you use the Bible to prove the Bible. What is your evidence? How do you know? The Bible doesn’t say it’s inspired. There is no inspired list in the Bible of the books that belong in it. Rational men and women need rational reasons for belief. **

ParkerD:
Your next paragraph shows that you know less than nothing about LDS teachings on those subjects, but it seems to be par for the course for some who cling to whatever they read.

My next paragraph was John 4:24. ???

Jim Dandy wrote:
“God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth” John 4:24

ParkerD:
Yes, and that is what we all should do–worship Him in spirit and in truth. Our spirit should get involved, and as we sincerely do that with full intent to obey the commandments and follow Christ, the Holy Spirit can get involved with us.

**You missed the part about GOD IS SPIRIT, not the Mormon ‘exalted’ man of flesh and bones and body parts and passions who has endless sex with his goddess wives and produces spirit children to populate his own world – in this case, the earth – and who is only one of many “Gods.”

All faithful Mormon men count on their own "exaltation’ and becoming gods who will rule over their own world and have endless spirit children with their goddess wives, etc. etc. etc. This is the promised fate of every faithful Mormon man who obeys the rules and gives 10% of his gross income. But Mormon women can’t become goddesses unless they are “sealed” to their husband who becomes a God. Pity. **

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy

 

[JeanMichel]

ParkerD responded:
The existence of inspired writings is not a proof about the compilers or transcribers or even translators, at all. People can gain enough inspiration from God to do good things (such as compile the Bible) without it being evidence that they have complete inspiration for everything they do.

Jim Dandy’s answer:**
Again, an effect (the Bible) cannot be greater than its cause (the Catholic Church). IOW, an infallible Bible requires an infallible source – the infallible Catholic Church. Mormonism lacks logic. It depends upon the teaching of Joseph Smith, the “glass looker” whose occupation was looking for buried treasure through magic peep stones in his hat in early 19th century America. **

ParkerD:
The departures from Biblical truths early on after the deaths of the apostles or the departure of John are easily found by reading the Bible itself. The Holy Ghost will always confirm religious truths to the sincere in heart who ask in faith.

**The poor maligned Holy Ghost – blamed for thousands of conflicting and competing Protestant, Mormon, JW, and other interpretations. Are your interpretations infallible? No? Then they are opinions – nothing more. **

**ParkerD:**The burning in the bosom as the two disciples had on the road to Emmaus is one way the Holy Ghost is described. I am comfortable with describing it that way, and do gain that same inspiration reading the Bible and applying its teachings as reading the Book of Mormon.

Emotions and feelings are not evidence.

ParkerD:
You don’t understand. One asks in faith about truths, not about books or about contents.

But you claim these “truths” come from the Bible, no? If not, what is their origin?

Quote] Jim Dandy wrote::
Do you get a “burning in the bosom” as confirmation when you read each book?

ParkerD:
Again, the confirming witness is about truths, not about “books”. It is gained when reading truths and when asking about those truths with sincere prayer or meditation and with a willingness to live by the truths, thus establishing hope in Christ, charity, and a desire to be sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

**Do you get your "truths out of the air or out of the Bible? You have no way of knowing that a particular writing is inspired and belongs in the Bible. Your reasoning is circular – you use the Bible to prove the Bible. What is your evidence? How do you know? The Bible doesn’t say it’s inspired. There is no inspired list in the Bible of the books that belong in it. Rational men and women need rational reasons for belief. **

ParkerD:
Your next paragraph shows that you know less than nothing about LDS teachings on those subjects, but it seems to be par for the course for some who cling to whatever they read.

My next paragraph was John 4:24. ???

ParkerD:
Yes, and that is what we all should do–worship Him in spirit and in truth. Our spirit should get involved, and as we sincerely do that with full intent to obey the commandments and follow Christ, the Holy Spirit can get involved with us.

**You missed the part about GOD IS SPIRIT, not the Mormon ‘exalted’ man of flesh and bones and body parts and passions who has endless sex with his goddess wives and produces spirit children to populate his own world – in this case, the earth – and who is only one of many “Gods.”

All faithful Mormon men count on their own "exaltation’ and becoming gods who will rule over their own world and have endless spirit children with their goddess wives, etc. etc. etc. This is the promised fate of every faithful Mormon man who obeys the rules and gives 10% of his gross income. But Mormon women can’t become goddesses unless they are “sealed” to their husband who becomes a God. Pity. **

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy

My, what a juicy example of everything I reject in organized religion, a apt example of non-christian behavior, and a total mischaracterization of Mormonism, every bit as good as describing Catholics as mystical, mindless believers that eat the flesh of their god as often as possible, who chase after magic amulets of a death sign at every turn, and pray to humans that have died as if humans can do something more than the God they eat.

This detestible manner of dealing with those who believe in the Jesus that was born of a virgin, that lived a perfect life, and bled in the Garden, hung on a cross until dead, rose after three days, appeared to his followers, returned to his Father in Heaven, and promised to return again one day; that acknowledge that there is only one way to heaven and that is through this same Jesus of Nazareth. I cannot rebuke this manner of speaking to other followers of Jesus in any stronger language; it is not of Christ, and it denies the Holy Spirit’s influence in total.

 

[ParkerD]

Quoted by ParkerD:

Can you please show me where in any Judeo-Christian Scripture that your statement/explanation appears? If God is Omnipotent then absolutely nothing is impossible to/for Him. If God is Omniscient then He knows exactly what the results of His actions are. I’m sorry, my friend, but your explanation of God may hold for the Mormons but not for we mainline Christians.

Shalom haMeshiach

Hi, JAVL, and good morning,

I have appreciated some of the conversations with you. Some things are learned by observation of how the Savior exemplified His Father’s will at all times. He performed miracles using materials at hand–such as water, or loaves and fishes, or earth, or the body itself and its power to be healed by faith. He said “God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” (Luke 3:8) He didn’t say from nothing.

I agree that God is both omnipotent and omniscient. The great test for us is a test of faith, and He provides that test perfectly, with no outward appearances that would deprive us of our complete freedom of free will choice. I understand those qualities of this life experience.

All the best to you, Merry upcoming Christmas, and wishing you many years of good health, JAVL.

Thanks, JeanMichel, for your comments.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Your first question: When I say to accept jesus as your savior, I am talking about accepting he died for your sins. That should be part of understanding why you want to be saved. He did die for your sins for you to go to heaven. The first step should be accepting he did this for YOU. If you accept that he died for your sins, you are accepting Christianity. That does not make you saved, that means you have accepted him as your savior. Big difference.

What makes me “saved”? Once I am “saved,” am I always “saved”?

Second question: I have raised that question many times.
I will let God deal with them. I’m sure God knows their situation much better than you do, and I do not believe God can damn a person who has never heard the word of him, or does not understand it. Or at least, I don’t think he should. I will let him deal with those who have died yet have not heard the word of God in their lifetime. This also applies to aborted/still-born babies.

Does your post express your own personal opinions, or those of your denomination? Which denomination are you? There are thousands of Protestant denominations who do not agree with you. How do you know who is right?

You overlooked this question. Here it is again:

There are several different collections of writings that different Christian groups call their “Bible.” Which one is the “real” Bible? How do you know?

(excluding Mormons, who are not Christian, with their many books)

See this Methodist website and answer the question:
gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

Whose Bible? Which canon?

ParkerD, Todd, and other Mormons should also answer the question about the Bible. How does any Protestant or Mormon or JW or (fill in the blank) know which writings belong in the Bible? It’s not a book but a collection of “little books,” which is what the word “Bible” means. Who collected them? Who decided the contents? When? By what authority? How did the “little books” come to be in your possession?

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Some things are learned by observation of how the Savior exemplified His Father’s will at all times. He performed miracles using materials at hand–such as water, or loaves and fishes, or earth, or the body itself and its power to be healed by faith. He said “God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” (Luke 3:8) He didn’t say from nothing.

I agree that God is both omnipotent and omniscient. The great test for us is a test of faith, and He provides that test perfectly, with no outward appearances that would deprive us of our complete freedom of free will choice. I understand those qualities of this life experience.

The Mormon God, Heavenly Father, is (I repeat) merely a man of flesh and bones and body parts and passions like us in every way, who was ‘exalted’ and became one of many Gods. Mormon men have the opportunity to become a God and rule over their own world just like Heavenly Father, if they pay their tithe and obey the rules. Heavenly Father didn’t create – he organized “elements” which have always existed and are eternal (p. 180). quote – Hence, we infer that God has materials to organize the world out of chaos – chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end. (p. 351-52).–end quote-- The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Summary:

God is not a spirit, he’s merely an ‘exalted’ man, one of many Gods.
God is not eternal, there were many Gods before him – matter “element”] is.
All glory dwells not in God, but in “element.”
God is not all powerful (omnipotent) - he cannot destroy “element.”
God did not create - he merely “organized element.”

All hail, element?

Jim Dandy

 

[BlueShadow123]

What makes me “saved”? Once I am “saved,” am I always “saved”?

Does your post express your own personal opinions, or those of your denomination? Which denomination are you? There are thousands of Protestant denominations who do not agree with you. How do you know who is right?

You overlooked this question. Here it is again:

There are several different collections of writings that different Christian groups call their “Bible.” Which one is the “real” Bible? How do you know?

(excluding Mormons, who are not Christian, with their many books)

See this Methodist website and answer the question:
gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm

Whose Bible? Which canon?

ParkerD, Todd, and other Mormons should also answer the question about the Bible. How does any Protestant or Mormon or JW or (fill in the blank) know which writings belong in the Bible? It’s not a book but a collection of “little books,” which is what the word “Bible” means. Who collected them? Who decided the contents? When? By what authority? How did the “little books” come to be in your possession?

Peace, Jim Dandy

I believe the real bible is the Catholic one.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I believe the real bible is the Catholic one.

Are you a closet Catholic? Your I.D. merely says “I am a Christian.” Your beliefs seem to me (a former Southern Baptist) to be Protestant, or at least not Catholic. ???

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

**(Jim Dandy’s post trucated)
You missed the part about GOD IS SPIRIT, not the Mormon ‘exalted’ man of flesh and bones and body parts and passions who has endless sex with his goddess wives and produces spirit children to populate his own world – in this case, the earth – and who is only one of many “Gods.”

All faithful Mormon men count on their own "exaltation’ and becoming gods who will rule over their own world and have endless spirit children with their goddess wives, etc. etc. etc. This is the promised fate of every faithful Mormon man who obeys the rules and gives 10% of his gross income. But Mormon women can’t become goddesses unless they are “sealed” to their husband who becomes a God. Pity. **

ParkerD:
My, what a juicy example of everything I reject in organized religion, a apt example of non-christian behavior, and a total mischaracterization of Mormonism, every bit as good as describing Catholics as mystical, mindless believers that eat the flesh of their god as often as possible, who chase after magic amulets of a death sign at every turn, and pray to humans that have died as if humans can do something more than the God they eat.

This detestible manner of dealing with those who believe in the Jesus that was born of a virgin, that lived a perfect life, and bled in the Garden, hung on a cross until dead, rose after three days, appeared to his followers, returned to his Father in Heaven, and promised to return again one day; that acknowledge that there is only one way to heaven and that is through this same Jesus of Nazareth. I cannot rebuke this manner of speaking to other followers of Jesus in any stronger language; it is not of Christ, and it denies the Holy Spirit’s influence in total.

I’m sorry you are offended, ParkerD, but Catholics need to know the truth about Mormonism. This thread was started by a Catholic who is wondering whether Catholicism or Mormonism is right, since they both claim to be the True Church. I am simply reporting facts about Mormonism straight out of Mormon sources. If I misrepresent any part of Mormonism, please correct me. You say I have “mischaracterized” Mormonism but you give no specifics. Which Mormon beliefs have I misrepresented?

The Holy Spirit is highly esteemed in Catholicism. He is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity – God Himself – who caused Jesus to be born of the Virgin Mary and who was given to the Catholic Church to guide her to all truth, AWAYS (John 14:26, 14:16-18, 15:26, 16:7-15, Acts 1:1, 15:28). He is given to each Christian personally in Baptism.

When you as a Mormon and I as a Catholic say “God” or “Jesus” or “Holy Spirit,” we’re talking about completely different beings. In Catholicism, which is the original form of Christianity, there are three Persons in One God – monotheism, not polytheism or henotheism.

All of your comments about Jesus sound so Christian, but they not. The Mormon Jesus is the spirit-child of an ‘exalted’ man who became a polygamous “God” and one of his many goddess wives, and whose spirit brother was Satan (and the entire population of the earth). Jesus came to earth by Heavenly Father having sexual relations with his spirit-daughter, the Virgin Mary. Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate Gods who are not one in substance, rather they are merely “united in understanding and purpose.”

In Mormonism, Heavenly Father is an ‘exalted man’ of flesh and bone, Jesus is Heavenly Father’s spirit-child who before coming to earth lived in a pre-existent state with his brother, Satan, and the Holy Spirit is also Heavenly Father’s spirit-child who is a “personage of spirit.” And they are merely three separate Gods out of many Gods that exist in the universe…

Please understand, I have no objection to Mormons believing whatever they wish – but when Mormonism is misrepresented as Christian, the record needs to be set straight. My criticism is not of Mormons but of Mormonism.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy

 

[KathleenGee]

Jim,

You clearly pointed out serious and grave differences between Mormonism and Catholicism.

 

[Miriam1947]

Jim,

You clearly pointed out serious and grave differences between Mormonism and Catholicism.

What Mormonism doesn’t do is get to the first God. They can’t quite get their heads around the uncreated Creator. And perhaps that is why their Heavenly Father has to have been a man.

And Jim you were quite Dandy in your explanation. Thanks.

 

[ParkerD]

I’m sorry you are offended, ParkerD, but Catholics need to know the truth about Mormonism. This thread was started by a Catholic who is wondering whether Catholicism or Mormonism is right, since they both claim to be the True Church. I am simply reporting facts about Mormonism straight out of Mormon sources. If I misrepresent any part of Mormonism, please correct me. You say I have “mischaracterized” Mormonism but you give no specifics. Which Mormon beliefs have I misrepresented?

The Holy Spirit is highly esteemed in Catholicism. He is the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity – God Himself – who caused Jesus to be born of the Virgin Mary and who was given to the Catholic Church to guide her to all truth, AWAYS (John 14:26, 14:16-18, 15:26, 16:7-15, Acts 1:1, 15:28). He is given to each Christian personally in Baptism.

When you as a Mormon and I as a Catholic say “God” or “Jesus” or “Holy Spirit,” we’re talking about completely different beings. In Catholicism, which is the original form of Christianity, there are three Persons in One God – monotheism, not polytheism or henotheism.

All of your comments about Jesus sound so Christian, but they not.

Parker’s edit of JD’s comments:

The Mormon Jesus is the Spirit-child of an ‘exalted’ Man, even He whom the Bible calls Elohim, He Who is Man of Holiness, and His Only Begotten Son is also Man of Holiness. Satan rebelled against both of These, the Father and the Son, and thus became a fallen angel and led a rebellion in heaven. The entire population of the earth are spirit children of Heavenly Father. Jesus came to earth by Heavenly Father having the power to send His seed of life to the Virgin Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit, and she became “great with child” and was still a virgin. Jesus was born as the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, and had been the Only Begotten Son in the spirit world before His birth, and was born as “God with us.” Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three completely united, omniscient, and omnipotent Gods who are not one in substance, rather they are “united in understanding and purpose” and are thus One just as Jesus prayed in His great Intercessory prayer.

JD,

It was JeanMichel who posted what you seem to have attributed to me. I wasn’t offended at all since why should I take offense from nonsense–but I thought JeanMichel made good points, and I had appreciated his sincerity in challenging your approach and your lack of knowledge.

Rather than tell you everything wrong with what you had posted above, I have just gone ahead and edited the section attributed to Mormon beliefs to save myself time.

 

[Javl]

Parker’s edit of JD’s comments:

Quote:
The Mormon Jesus is the Spirit-child of an ‘exalted’ Man, even He whom the Bible calls Elohim, He Who is Man of Holiness, and His Only Begotten Son is also Man of Holiness. Satan rebelled against both of These, the Father and the Son, and thus became a fallen angel and led a rebellion in heaven. The entire population of the earth are spirit children of Heavenly Father. Jesus came to earth by Heavenly Father having the power to send His seed of life to the Virgin Mary through the power of the Holy Spirit, and she became “great with child” and was still a virgin. Jesus was born as the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, and had been the Only Begotten Son in the spirit world before His birth, and was born as “God with us.” Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three completely united, omniscient, and omnipotent Gods who are not one in substance, rather they are “united in understanding and purpose” and are thus One just as Jesus prayed in His great Intercessory prayer.

In Mormonism, Heavenly Father is an ‘exalted man’ of flesh and bone, Jesus is Heavenly Father’s spirit-child who before coming to earth lived in a pre-existent state with an angel who rebelled and became Satan, the father of lies, and the Holy Spirit is also God, who is a “personage of spirit.” And they are three separate Gods out of many Gods who will be able to be exalted through the redemption and grace offered by Christ and promised by Him and by John in Revelation, and those will exist somewhere in the universe with a united will and purpose and with a joint throne with Christ, whom they will continue to worship as well as God the Father.

The following links are for the true and actual description of the Blessed Trinity according to the Bible, Holy Tradition, and the early Church Fathers. There is only ONE God that consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God has/had no beginning. We may give Him human attributes so as to try to understand Him.

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/

Believing in three separate Gods for the Trinity is a violation of the first commandment of the Decalogue.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[ParkerD]

Believing in three separate Gods for the Trinity is a violation of the first commandment of the Decalogue.

Shalom haMeshiach

JAVL,

I suppose that you realize that when Moses received the Ten Commandments, he received them from Jehovah, but the Jews thought (and still do) that he received them from Elohim, so the “One God” of the Jews is Elohim, not Jehovah, and that is why they rejected Christ–because they absolutely would not accept that there could be a Messiah who was God with us.

So, the Catholics have taken their belief in One God from the Jews, and kept that belief which is to be expected since they have taken several other traditions from the Jews also, and since it is evident to some of us that converted Pharisees or other “knowledgeable” Jews insisted on keeping their old traditions in their new church after they joined it.

Jehovah is the Savior who was repeatedly spoken of in the Old Testament, the “One God” of the Jews. He had that role as Jehovah. The apostles came to understand this as they were taught by Christ. That is why Peter could say “Thou art the Christ”, meaning the Anointed One, the Savior, the Messiah of the Jews. He came to understand that Christ was Jehovah, the Great I AM. Christ taught to worship and pray to Heavenly Father, and taught that He and the Father are One, so to have no other God before the Savior is to have no other God before the Father–They are united as One just as Christ’s intercessory prayer said.

The idea of “other gods” has to do with either pagan gods or with other objects of worship or modes of worship–whether idols, other items made of wood or stone, or even other activities or possessions in life that dominate and consume one’s time, energy, and “devotion.”

 

[KathleenGee]

BlueShadow…

We Catholics do not apply that standard, ‘we are saved’…we could be saved at 40 and condemned at 80 through backsliding or bitterness that our expectations of life did not render what we had hoped for.

Martin Luther is the one who I believe started the major Great Apostasy…there were those apostates who left Christ when He spoke of eating and drinking of His flesh and blood before the Last Supper. St. John would leave the public bath if a false teacher entered. So apostasy and heresy is always present because it represents the fallen, human condition.

Martin Luther would write a preface before every one of the Gospels…and as a commentator said last night, a former Presbyterian minister, that Luther seemed to imply that ethics and morality didn’t matter because you are saved, and appeared in essence to contradict the Sermon on the Mount.

Martin Luther said we are saved by faith alone…sin lustily…

But the Catholic faith teaches we are incorporated into the daily life of grace with Jesus Christ. The sacraments are the outward signs of the sanctifying grace of Christ that brings us into Divine life here with Him on earth now. Our walk is a lifelong conversion.

It is also interesting to note, as I am frequent to say we all need to study church history, that the evangelical concept of Christian history is not what the Presbyterian minister found out…the authentic early Christian history is very different and is sourced within the Catholic Church.