Either Catholics or Mormons have it right...

[Stephen168]

Steve…agree about just the statement by Whitney…

Perhaps another thread to start : How do we define Truth? Can we even agree on the proper tools to help us find truth and discern what is false?

There is such a huge rift between Judeo Christian salvation history and the Mormon use of new origins and common thoughts from the Bible used by both Jews and Christians meaning different things and using parts of them to support their findings in Mormonism.

Knowing what is absolutely true can be difficult. The Mormon response to this difficulty seems to be to just give up and believe whatever they ‘feel’ to true. The Catholic response is to continue to apply our knowledge and reason to keep seeking what is true.

Whitney’s feel good story is irrational and historically false. It is easy to find things false but truth we still have to work towards. So much of Mormon belief has been shown to be false that it is almost painful to watch them try to hold on it.

 

[campeador]

The thread that wouldn’t die…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[KathleenGee]

Let’s let it die…

 

[Javl]

I am quite amazed at the intelligence of the Mormons who post on this thread and others in these forums. Yet, with all the intelligence that they posses, they still cannot discern the truth that is in the Judaeo-Christian scriptures. They rely primarily upon a man made fantasy to find the truth. It seems that even common sense and logic is of no use.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

Tonight at the beginning of Mass, the pastor gave the time period of all the figures of Salvation History…all down to Jesus. I was preparing for the Christmas Vigil Mass and found out during the First Reading that they went ahead with the Midnight Mass reading…

The Vigill Mass drew on the land of Israel in its beginning…to King David re seating Saul…and to the root of Jesse…Jesus…and then to the Gospel of Matthew and the geneology…must admit I liked the blessing of Christ’s geneology at the one used for the Midnight Mass readings which we used instead at the vigil…it is all laid out, prayed in chant at the beginning of Mass…will see if I can get a copy of it…a general year is given with each figurehead…the constancy and continuity…reflect God’s presence in Mankind.

The homily covered that as we ‘feed’ onChrist, we in turn become as Christ to the world…we extend His presence into the world through charity and service…

 

[zerinus]

I won’t belabor the point with you zerinus. My point is that the Adventists groups claimed new revelation through prophecy just as the Mormons and each time they prophesied it was proven false. Making predictions based upon “prophecy” was common among the Adventist groups, the JW’s and the Mormons. Joseph Smith was also influenced by the Masons, even though Masonry was well established. I don’t care who came first, I am speaking of the influence they had on Mormon doctrine.

They had no influence on Mormon doctrine, period. And you have not demonstrated that they had any.

 

[zerinus]

Now, I ask the question, if the LDS church is the true church, that has to mean that the LDS church has the copyright? How about the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price? Does the LDS church have the “copyright” to those? Could just anyone read them and then form their own Mormon sect, which might be quite a bit different from the LDS? (That is what Catholics think Protestants do.)

Copyright isn’t exactly the right word to use. According to the law of the land a book goes out of copyright around 70 years after it was written. So both the Book of Mormon and the Bible are now out of copyright (though not the latest edition with footnotes and LDS cross-references!). And I certainly agree that not anybody can be an authoritative interpreter of scripture. People have the right to interpret scripture anyway they like; but being an authoritative interpreter is something different. Catholics believe that they are the authoritative interpreter, and Mormons believe that they are; and Protestants do not believe in an “authoritative” interpretation at all. I take the Catholic side against Protestantism with that one; but I think that the Church which claims to be still receiving revelation, and believes in an open canon of scripture, assuming that its claim is true, has a more legitimate claim to being an authoritative interpreter than one that doesn’t. I think that Mormonism fits that bill.

 

[flower_of_God]

I couldn’t imagine that catholics would wonder one day which of these 2 religions is true, while both are completly different.
If any catholic would have asked this question regarding Catholic and Orthodox church it would have been different, but to put the mormon church beside the Catholic Church is incredible.

Don’t you know that they believe any of us can be one day GOD? Why don;t you search the testimonies of former mormons?

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/JHThomasSmith_Former_Mormon.mp3

carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine

 

[SteveVH]

They had no influence on Mormon doctrine, period. And you have not demonstrated that they had any.

Well, I have read more than a few materials that disagree with you but it would take me awhile to find them. I’ll be happy to take you at your word, however, as it doesn’t really matter at this point in history.

 

[rmcmullan]

I couldn’t imagine that catholics would wonder one day which of these 2 religions is true, while both are completly different. If any catholic would have asked this question regarding Catholic and Orthodox church it would have been different, but to put the mormon church beside the Catholic Church is incredible.

Don’t you know that they believe any of us can be one day GOD? Why don;t you search the testimonies of former mormons?

You can also find the testimonies of many believing and not-former Mormons at lds.org. I’d advise you check there first, there’s seldom little to be learned from angry people who hold a grudge, except for how angry they are. At lds.org, you’ll be inspired and feel the spirit. Even if you’re not a believer.

The OP’s point is that the two churches are the only two who make a claim to Apostolic succession, not that their doctrine are similar.

The Catholic church and all their schisms claim there never was an Apostacy and that the Apostles were only temporary callings. The Mormons claim the Apostles are an essential part of the Lord’s priesthood and, as detailed in the Book of Acts where Matthias was called to replace Judas (Acts 1:26), were meant to continue. Their claim to succession is when Peter, James and John appeared in a resurrected form to confer the priesthood to Joseph Smith. If you can believe that you would have no problems with any of the doctrine.

 

[catholic-rcia]

As to angry people who hold a grudge:
the LDS Church was founded on a percieved notian that the Catholic Church, Christ’s Chuch failed. The truth is our Church was not built on the fall of another Church. It was built by Jesus because we are all fallen and in great need of Him.

Catholic doctrine is so sound it brought me out of Mormonism into a certain truth that is of great beauty. It is black and white and the majority of those baptized LDS never took the opportunity to learn about Christianity. The LDS Missionaries never took the time to tell them about their peculiar beliefs as they do worship an entirely different kind of god. An endless line of mortals who became gods.

This is why the retention rate for the LDS Baptism is so low. They find out these peculiar beliefs after baptism. I have seen this clearly from those who return to the Catholic faith, and from those who never knew what it was, but were only told what it is by those who do not know. I can look around our Pariah here in Utah and see the retention rate in the faces of those baptized Catholic over the last 12 years. After being blessed in this great mission I can say the reason is because they spent the time necessary to learn about Jesus, who He is in relation to His Farther, in relation to us. In essence they fall in love with Him first. Not just feeling,…they fall in love.

Then they are baptized into Him, for Him as we become His forever. Here is a story about one of these mean Catholics that one mentioned here. He is the one who brought me to Christ out of Mormonism. It was the first real Saint that I had ever read about. My wife is from Montreal, here is His story in Christ Jesus.
utahmission.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

How? My wife has Mohawk in her and it is a real story about a real Missionary. This is what I get as a fairly new Catholic. The real stories, authenticity and most of all my One God and my One Lord Jesus Christ who came to save me from my sins. I am not ashamed to admit that I a sinner in great need of Jesus and His Cross for me.
Rich
www.utahmission.com
out of love for His Church

 

[zaffiroborant]

You can also find the testimonies of many believing and not-former Mormons at lds.org. I’d advise you check there first, there’s seldom little to be learned from angry people who hold a grudge, except for how angry they are. At lds.org, you’ll be inspired and feel the spirit. Even if you’re not a believer.

The OP’s point is that the two churches are the only two who make a claim to Apostolic succession, not that their doctrine are similar.

The Catholic church and all their schisms claim there never was an Apostacy and that the Apostles were only temporary callings. The Mormons claim the Apostles are an essential part of the Lord’s priesthood and, as detailed in the Book of Acts where Matthias was called to replace Judas (Acts 1:26), were meant to continue. Their claim to succession is when Peter, James and John appeared in a resurrected form to confer the priesthood to Joseph Smith. If you can believe that you would have no problems with any of the doctrine.

You ignored part of that, but that is no surprise, the requirements listed are also being ignored on the great apostasy thread.

20For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Here are some writing by some prominent Mormon leaders regarding Christianity. I would like to speak about the tone of these writings. I would like your thoughts on it. Has anyone ever found writings from Catholic servants of the church speak about another faith like this? in this type of tone? I am speaking about Popes writings, the Bishops writings, Priests and those who we know became Saints. I find the same tone in a lot of Joseph Smiths writings. What do you think?

“Since the departure from the true gospel of Christ was to be universal…it would follow that a restoration would be necessary. Such a restoration is the message of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”—Apostle LeGrand Richards, *A Marvelous Work And A Wonder, *1976, p. 32

“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”—History of the Church, vol. 1, p. XL
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense.…it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century.”—Apostle John Taylor (who would eventually become 3rd Prophet), 1858, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 167

“What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world.”—Joseph Smith, *History of the Church, *vol. 5, p. 218

“My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join.…I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that **all their creeds were an abomination **in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt.…”—Joseph Smith—History 1:18-19

“And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil.…”—1 Nephi 14:10, Book of Mormon
“ ‘Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?’ Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.”—*Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, *compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, 1976, p. 119

“There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 1-350.)”—Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670

 

[rmcmullan]

Well that’s another thing that I do find confusing. People here at the Catholic forums argue with great passion about the correctness of their church’s doctrine but when it comes to salvation, it seems that doctrine does not matter. Mormons want the ordinances of salvation (e.g. baptism, priesthood ordination) to be administered by men called of God and ordained through priesthood lineage. But the Catholic church does not not require that and it makes me wonder why they even bother with a claim for Apostolic Succession?

 

[SteveVH]

Well that’s another thing that I do find confusing. People here at the Catholic forums argue with great passion about the correctness of their church’s doctrine but when it comes to salvation, it seems that doctrine does not matter. Mormons want the ordinances of salvation (e.g. baptism, priesthood ordination) to be administered by men called of God and ordained through priesthood lineage. But the Catholic church does not not require that and it makes me wonder why they even bother with a claim for Apostolic Succession?

All people are called to the Catholic Church because it is Christ’s own Church. It possesses the fullness of truth revealed to us by God Himself. The fact that we believe that others, outside of the Church can be saved means that we believe in the mercy of God and His love for all of His children. When a person, through no fault of their own, has not received the fullness of this truth, we believe that God remains faithful and merciful and that they can be saved. Otherwise, their salvation would depend upon men, not God. Can you imagine a God who would say to someone, upon their death, “Sorry they didn’t get to you and evangelize you before you died. I know you did the best you could with what you had but you’re out of luck.”

This is not to say that salvation does not become more difficult the further away one is from the truth, but it is not impossible and we all, within and without the Church, depend ultimately on the mercy of God for our salvation. Only God can read our hearts and only God knows what one would have done had they known the truth.

 

[rmcmullan]

Thank you SteveVH, that does help. Sorry to press the point but is it fair to say that even if everyone here at the Catholic forums agreed that there was no Apostolic authority within the Catholic church, that it would change very little?

 

[KathleenGee]

In regards to experiencing all the love on an LDS site, first of all I don’t go there. I have watched their programs. Mormonism is a world of its own.

But the Catholic Church did not start out condemning other Christians.

LDS began by condemning all Christianity. Oh, there were a few real Christians here and there…for 1800 years…definition unclear…apostasy unclear…but all the proof in the golden plates, Egyptian scrolls and Smith…

Where is God? Why did Christ begin His church and allow it to fall and then create a new one with men who did not emulate the virtue and character of the original apostles…

To believe in Mormonism does draw one to a different understanding of God.

The universal faith believes in God Who Is, Who does not change, Whose teachings are consistent.

To believe in Egyptian scrolls and golden slabs are to believe in symbols and images outside the framework of Judeo Christianity. To justify polygamy and starting a new religion…one would indeed have to create new stories.

 

[rmcmullan]

But the Catholic Church did not start out condemning other Christians.

I guess I just see things differently. I’m sure you’re familiar with

Matt 5:17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

The Church of God that preceeded Chistianity was Judaism and it was definitely being undermined by Christianity. That’s why the Jews persecuted the early Christians. Part of the Apostacy.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ spoke to the multitude of Jews…there were great numbers who followed Him to the road to Calvary…the first Church of Jerusalem was Jewish, with St. James the Lesser as head.

The Jews who followed Christ remained in Israel after the Diaspora vs Jews who left Rome. What percentage of Jews followed Christ and remained with Him and how many Jews were dispersed who rejected Christ? What is the implication you are trying to make?

So far the great love of Mormonism has essentially invalidated all of Christianity and declared themselves saints. Christianity does not take well to charlatans and myths.

Christ’s Apostles lived within the context of Judaism of their time. There is no indication any Apostle was part of any sect but rather lived ordinary lives…part of the mainstream.

 

[Javl]

I guess I just see things differently. I’m sure you’re familiar with

The Church of God that preceeded Chistianity was Judaism and it was definitely being undermined by Christianity. That’s why the Jews persecuted the early Christians. Part of the Apostacy.

Christianity was not undermining Judaism. Christianity is the fullfillment and completion of Judaism. Ref: Hebrewcatholics.org.

The Pharisees, along with the Saducees, were more interested in the power they had over the people than adhereing to God’s Law. In their eyes the Christians ( like the Zadoks ) posed a threat to them, therefore they encouraged a form or persecution of Christians. Please read early Church history.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem