Election 2012 - Who to vote for?

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Rich_Olszewski said:
Yes, however the reference to choice is to the choice the mother, not the child, may make. It is a legitimate term preferred by those who would tolerate abortion no less than using “pro-life” as a term for those who oppose abortion.

On a practical level, use of those terms is in accord with the terms each side prefers for itself, and I for one have no problem using “pro-lifer” or pro-choicer. (One can be “pro-choice” withouth being pro-abortion.)

A bit of hyperbole, no?

Not so-called. It is a legitimate term.

Hyperbole. It is not murder as murder is defined in our criminal legal system.
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Oh kind of like “it depends on what the meaning of the word IS…is”:rolleyes:
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Yes, however the reference to choice is to the choice the mother, not the child,
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The mother’s choice is to murder the child…or not. The child has no choice.
Rich_Olszewski said:
It is a legitimate term
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No. Pro-murder is more descriptive of the view.
Rich_Olszewski said:
A bit of hyperbole, no?
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No. A bit of truth.
Rich_Olszewski said:
Not so-called. It is a legitimate term.
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Not really. Murder is not legal. Yet somehow mankind has justified this murder to be legal.
Rich_Olszewski said:
It is not murder as murder is defined in our criminal legal system.
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It should be…that is the point.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Yes, however the reference to choice is to the choice the mother, not the child, may make. It is a legitimate term preferred by those who would tolerate abortion no less than using “pro-life” as a term for those who oppose abortion.

On a practical level, use of those terms is in accord with the terms each side prefers for itself, and I for one have no problem using “pro-lifer” or pro-choicer. (One can be “pro-choice” withouth being pro-abortion.)

A bit of hyperbole, no?

Not so-called. It is a legitimate term.

Hyperbole. It is not murder as murder is defined in our criminal legal system.
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THe word murder is NOT limited to the statutory definition in your state. Abortion is murder by every definition and realize the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not kill” was a mistranslation. Jewish and Greek scholars have all specified that the word kill does not mean murder either and God meant MURDER not simply killing.

Whether the word “murder” is hyperbole is apparently only a matter of opinion. Stand back and say the same thing when referring to Stalin, Mao, or Hitler’s slaughter. The only difference is the numbers (abortion is leading all three in body count) and stage of development.

I will go on record as saying any Catholic who votes for Obama is complicit in the death of babies. This man is a radical on the abortion issue and has been from the beginning. Why so many were apparently fooled (thank you media who hid this) is beyond me. By now it should be clear that he has a very frightening agenda in the area of life issues…both beginning and end.

Lisa
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Yes, however the reference to choice is to the choice the mother, not the child, may make. It is a legitimate term preferred by those who would tolerate abortion no less than using “pro-life” as a term for those who oppose abortion.

On a practical level, use of those terms is in accord with the terms each side prefers for itself, and I for one have no problem using “pro-lifer” or pro-choicer. (One can be “pro-choice” withouth being pro-abortion.)

A bit of hyperbole, no?

Not so-called. It is a legitimate term.

Hyperbole. It is not murder as murder is defined in our criminal legal system.
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Since there was nothing known as a “legal system” when Cain killed Abel, I suppose that was not murder either. Correct?
 
Mickey said:
There is no such thing as “pro-choice.” The proper term would be “pro-death.” The child in the womb does not have a choice. 56 million babies have been murdered in the last thirty years. The blood of these voiceless martyrs cries out for justice! I pray that those who support so called “legal abortion” have a change of mind and heart prior to standing before the fearsome judgement seat of Christ attempting to justify why they supported politicians who favored “legal murder on demand” of our most vulnerable children.
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Mickey, could you maybe pray too for whatever other needs and intentions I may have. God knows what they are. I thank you ahead. St James taught to pray for one another and I can pray for whatever personal intentions you may have as well if you’d like. But like I said I’ll leave any judgment of me at the seat of Christ to His mercy alone. God bless you on your walk and peace.
 
CMatt25 said:
I’m an Obama supporter vs Romney and I don’t support abortion either. I may support a woman’s right to choose or her right to legally decide for herself whether to be a mother if she were forceably raped or if her own life was in danger. Rather than the Big Brother state making that private and personal choice for her. But that’s supporting choice. Not abortion. I myself, if I were of the gender, would not have an abortion. Neither one of us is likely to change the other’s mind though on how we look at the issue. I trust God understands I reside in a society with plural views and beliefs about this issue though and what the secular legal law is as a result. And I’ll leave it at that and me to His mercy if need be.
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You do support legal abortion. If you did not support legal abortion, well you’d be against legal abortion. I think what you likely mean to say is something like, “I do not like abortion, yet I support it remaining legal.”

You cannot support something, and try to say you are not supporting that something.
 
CMatt25 said:
Mickey, could you maybe pray too for whatever other needs and intentions I may have.
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Of course.
CMatt25 said:
But like I said I’ll leave any judgment of me at the seat of Christ to His mercy alone.
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And we all will be judged there. I will continue to pray for those who support the continued legalization of abortion…and for those who support pro-abortion politicians…that they will have metanoia before they face that judgement.
 
CMatt25 said:
… I do though like the “by their fruits you will know them” verse too. I’ve even considered it when looking at clergy’s fruits.
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When one considers the fruits of something, we have to look at what the fruits are *of. *So, in examining those clergy who follow Church teachings, and seeing how those who follow Church teaching do wonderful things and the great sanctity of some has been recognized by the Church.

Then there are those clergy who *deviate, *who *depart *from Church teaching and commit evil acts. One cannot say that the fruits of those evil acts is the fruit of the *Church *from Whose teachings they departed.
 
LisaA said:
THe word murder is NOT limited to the statutory definition in your state.
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No, it isn’t (the nation doesn’t follow Arkansas criminal law), but every state has a definition for “murder” and abortion isn’t included.
Whether the word “murder” is hyperbole is apparently only a matter of opinion.
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No, it’s a matter of legal definition.
 
irishpatrick said:
You do support legal abortion. If you did not support legal abortion, well you’d be against legal abortion. I think what you likely mean to say is something like, “I do not like abortion, yet I support it remaining legal.”

You cannot support something, and try to say you are not supporting that something.
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This was the post I was responding to. “Because, unlike Obama supporters, we don’t support abortion.” The word “legal” was no where to be found.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Legally speaking, you are correct. Cain, as you said, “killed” Abel.
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*At common law, murder was defined as killing another human being with malice aforethought. Malice aforethought is a legal term of art, that encompasses the following types of murder:
■"Intent-to-kill murder"
■"Grievous-bodily-harm murder" - Killing someone in an attack intended to cause them grievous bodiliy harm. For example, if a person fatally stabbed someone, even if she only intended to wound her victim, she could still be executed.
■"Felony-murder" - Killing someone while in the process of committing a felony. Note that at common law, there were few felonies, and all carried the death penalty. For example, at common law, robbery was a felony. So if a robber accidentally killed someone during a robbery, the robber could be executed.
■"Depraved heart murder" - Killing someone in a way that demonstrates a callous disregard for the value of human life. For example, if a person intentionally fires a gun into a crowded room, and someone dies, the person could be convicted of depraved heart murder.

These definitions are valuable because they inform subsequent reforms of American murder law.*

law.cornell.edu/wex/murder

Sure seems abortion fits in those legal defintitions.
 
Jeanne_S said:
Oh kind of like “it depends on what the meaning of the word IS…is”:rolleyes:
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Yes, it does depend on what the meaning of a word is. If I kill someone who ran in front of my car, it is not murder.
 
irishpatrick said:
Sure seems abortion fits in those legal defintitions.
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If you really think so, go try to file a complaint of murder against an abortionist. You won’t succeed.

BTW, I oppose abortion, but I restrict my terminology to what the law says, and I don’t use hyperbole, which gets one nowhere in a court of law.
 
Mickey said:
The mother’s choice is to murder the child…or not. The child has no choice.
No. Pro-murder is more descriptive of the view.
No. A bit of truth.
Not really. Murder is not legal. Yet somehow mankind has justified this murder to be legal.
It should be…that is the point.
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You can personally read what you want into it, however, none of that is murder under the law. As an attorney, my first recourse is to what the law says on any topic. Sorry.
 
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