Election 2012 - Who to vote for?

[estesbob]

Nothing in here even approaches the level of crimination that I addressed. The Cardinal brings to home a problem we see in many Catholics. Voting for Obama can in many cases be material cooperation with abortion and thus mortally sinful. However, it does not have to be. Not all who vote for Obama commit mortal sin.

What proportionate reasons would allow a Catholic to vote for obama? He supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand. homosexual marriage and forcing catholics to fund immorality. What positions of Romeny are so egregious that they would allow a Catholic to vote for Obama in spite of the above.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Are you saying Catholics are required to vote for Romney? That certainly is way beyond what the Church teaches.

No,I suppose Rich is correct,don’t vote if you dislike Romney so much,we are to vote our conscience,taking into consideration the five non negotioables and for the cadidate most closly aligned with our requirements. If you just can’t stomache the thought of Romney,fine.

 

[bellasbane]

What proportionate reasons would allow a Catholic to vote for obama? He supports unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand. homosexual marriage and forcing catholics to fund immorality. What positions of Romeny are so egregious that they would allow a Catholic to vote for Obama in spite of the above.

How about the ones he keeps changing his mind about?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

How about the ones he keeps changing his mind about?

Like changing from pro-abortion (although he didn’t sign one such law as governor) to pro-life?

Obama is the most pro-abortion president in history.

Dead babies can’t get social services.

What am I missing here?

 

[Jessup]

Dr. Ron Paul, Ron Paul, Ron Paul!!!

 

[bellasbane]

You said:

That statement is not true

That statement certainly is true.

The paragraphs you cite are about moral risks associated with artificial contraception - something every Catholic should reflect upon when evaluating their own behavior. These are important issues to consider when conscientiously exercising one’s free will - they are not about imposing external constraints on free will.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

How about the ones he keeps changing his mind about?

YOu mean like Obama, who has changed his mind on virtually everything he has ever said in less than 4 years. At this point, Youtube is Obama’s worst enemy, as we can go back and put a montage ofwhat Obama said and promised in 2008 and what he is saying now. IN many cases they are in stark and direct contrast to each other.

Obama accused Bush of being unpatriotic for creating such large deficits…yet Obama has created more deficit in less time than Bush (the rest of the preceding presidents combine, actually). I guess by his own definition, Obama is unpatriotic. Obama thought that using the War Powers Act was unconstitutional and possibly an impeachable offense…until its his turn to use them, then its okay. Obama believes that marriage is between a man and a woman…until he thinks that anyone who loves each other should have “marriage equality”. In fact, the only think that Obama has not waved on is his enthusiastic support for abortion. He even wants to make sure that abortion is available so that his daughters can kill his grandkids if they “make a mistake”.

 

[LiarsAtCF]

Dr. Ron Paul, Ron Paul, Ron Paul!!!

Probably would have been a Godsend. Too bad he was too truthful and didn’t line his pockets with corporate money.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

That statement certainly is true.

The paragraphs you cite are about moral risks associated with artificial contraception - something every Catholic should reflect upon when evaluating their own behavior. These are important issues to consider when conscientiously exercising one’s free will - they are not about imposing external constraints on free will.

No. The Catholic position is that the use of artificial contraception is intrisically evil and a mortal sin. No ifs, ands, or buts. Yes you have free will. It is a gift from God, who is the ultimate expression of free will. It is a gift that He bestows freely upon each of us. But to use that gift in a manner that is insulting to Him, especially if it is done intentionally, is about the gravest offense that you can give.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Probably would have been a Godsend. Too bad he was too truthful and didn’t line his pockets with corporate money.

Ron Paul is to honest of a man to be able to sit in the White House. You have to be willing to spend taxpayer money to reward your financial and political benefactors. Ron Paul would never give deep sea oil rigs to George Soros as a thank you gift for putting him in office…as an example.

 

[LiarsAtCF]

Ron Paul is to honest of a man to be able to sit in the White House. You have to be willing to spend taxpayer money to reward your financial and political benefactors. Ron Paul would never give deep sea oil rigs to George Soros as a thank you gift for putting him in office…as an example.

That, and don’t forget him always saying he would leave it up to the States when it came to other matters. You just know those politicians up in Capitol Hill wouldn’t take too kindly having some powers restored from the Federal level to the State level.

 

[bellasbane]

Like changing from pro-abortion (although he didn’t sign one such law as governor) to pro-life?

Obama is the most pro-abortion president in history.

Dead babies can’t get social services.

What am I missing here?

According to Prolife Profiles - Romney did an awful lot to increase access to abortion when he was governor of Massachusetts. I had no idea it was THAT bad:
prolifeprofiles.com/mitt-romney-abortion

They have some interesting quotes on his page like:

“If you fear Obama, you’ll vote for Romney. If you fear God, you won’t.” and
“In-san-i-ty: When you support a Republican who has done what you fear Obama might do.”

These are people after my own heart!

 

[bellasbane]

No. The Catholic position is that the use of artificial contraception is intrisically evil and a mortal sin. No ifs, ands, or buts. Yes you have free will. It is a gift from God, who is the ultimate expression of free will. It is a gift that He bestows freely upon each of us. But to use that gift in a manner that is insulting to Him, especially if it is done intentionally, is about the gravest offense that you can give.

You are talking about being damned - I am talking about going to prison.

Since when does the Catholic Church advocate putting people in prison for using birth control?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You are talking about being damned - I am talking about going to prison.

Since when does the Catholic Church advocate putting people in prison for using birth control?

It doesn’t. Since when does the Catholic Church advocate that the federal government steal money from me to pay for your birth control pills, or I go to prison or pay a fine?

 

[bellasbane]

It doesn’t. Since when does the Catholic Church advocate that the federal government steal money from me to pay for your birth control pills, or I go to prison or pay a fine?

I don’t use birth control pills!

Will you be following what happens at the Nebraska GOP convention this weekend. Ron Paul supporters are going to make a big push to win a majority of delegates. If they succeed, he can contest Romney’s nomination at the GOP convention. Here’s a story about from the Huffington Post:

Ron Paul’s Tampa Hopes Hinge On Cornhusker Convention Chaos

I hope they succeed - it will be so fun to watch!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I don’t use birth control pills!

Will you be following what happens at the Nebraska GOP convention this weekend. Ron Paul supporters are going to make a big push to win a majority of delegates. If they succeed, he can contest Romney’s nomination at the GOP convention. Here’s a story about from the Huffington Post:

Ron Paul’s Tampa Hopes Hinge On Cornhusker Convention Chaos

I hope they succeed - it will be so fun to watch!

I have been informed that I shall not discuss he who shall not be named.

 

[Mickey]

But, here is the kicker: that dead growing person doesn’t care what we call it, because that innocent person is gone!

Yes. It cannot be sugar-coated. It is murder…any way you look at it.

God’s law trumps man’s law.

 

[CMatt25]

The Bishops WERE NOT, using their own words, “offering a voters guide.” Yes, we are NOT to be single issue voters, and I know of no one who is literally a single issue voter. Yet, unless we acknowledge we are going in the wrong direction, how can we ever hope to get onto a better path? Killing the unborn MUST stop–period.

Tell me, during WWII, if Catholics had a full grasp of the Hollcaust, do you think that it might have been morally correct for those Catholics to place the ending of the Holocaust at the very top of the list, above all others?

How about slavery? Would the stopping of slavery be enough to rise to the highest place on the list, far above all others?

No one denies there are many important issues–yet we must take care of the most critical needs first and work down the list. We must stop the killing/slaughter of God’s innocent ones, who are lives crying out for protection and yet so many do not even care to listen!

I think you know you’re asking the wrong person if you want me to take 3 separate issues, apples, oranges, and apricots and make a comparison of the Holocaust and slavery to the issue of pro choice.

One problem with the slavery analogy is you equate abortion with owning a human person. And even if we answer the question of when life begins, we still have that problem of answering and everyone agreeing on when an embryo or fetus becomes a person whose personhood rights surpass those of the woman carrying the embryo or fetus in her body. That’s what a society of plural beliefs in an imperfect world attempts to answer for its law of the land. There was a SCOTUS ruling 4 decades ago next Jan.

The slavery analogy could also be used as an argument for choice. Slavery is about losing one’s freedom over one’s body and life. In a sense it could be argued a woman is not free if she can not even choose for instance whether or not she will be a mother after being raped or when her own human life is at stake. I know anti choice people like to say those are rare cases. Yet the Catholic Church opposes this freedom even in those cases.

We may never agree on personhood rights or when the rights of the unborn should trump the woman’s rights under secular law, but we know women and slaves and Jews are people.

 

[CMatt25]

Not required to vote for Romney-cant vote for Obama

I thank God I live in a country where I am free to weigh and pray upon the issues and follow my conscience on how I am going to cast my vote without anyone telling me who I can’t vote for.

 

[LisaA]

I think you know you’re asking the wrong person if you want me to take 3 separate issues, apples, oranges, and apricots and make a comparison of the Holocaust and slavery to the issue of pro choice.

One problem with the slavery analogy is you equate abortion with owning a human person. And even if we answer the question of when life begins, we still have that problem of answering and everyone agreeing on when an embryo or fetus becomes a person whose personhood rights surpass those of the woman carrying the embryo or fetus in her body. That’s what a society of plural beliefs in an imperfect world attempts to answer for its law of the land. There was a SCOTUS ruling 4 decades ago next Jan.

The slavery analogy could also be used as an argument for choice. Slavery is about losing one’s freedom over one’s body and life. In a sense it could be argued a woman is not free if she can not even choose for instance whether or not she will be a mother after being raped or when her own human life is at stake. I know anti choice people like to say those are rare cases. Yet the Catholic Church opposes this freedom even in those cases.

We may never agree on personhood rights or when the rights of the unborn should trump the woman’s rights under secular law, but we know women and slaves and Jews are people.

You’re back with the same IMO weak arguments talking about “when life begins” or when an unborn baby’s rights “surpass those of the woman.”

A) There is no question when a separate, unique and individual person begins and that is at conception. There is no other standard that definitive, that clear or that well supported by science. The only difference between an embryo in the womb and a person who made the trip out safely is time and stage of development. Any standard such as “abortion only before 3 months” which I believe was the standard in Roe, only creates a movable and unverified point in time that can and has been changed.

B) When you claim the rights of the unborn “exceed” those of the woman you make absolutely no sense. There is not a time during the pregnancy when the baby has the choice to kill the pregnant woman. IOW the baby’s rights cannot and will never “exceed” the woman’s right to kill that baby. The baby has no power. You are speaking riddles that don’t stand up

C) Roe was based on vague arguments and a lack of scientific knowledge that has become not only more clear but more available with advances in technology. Ultrasound pictures are the biggest deterrent to abortion in those women who have taken steps toward termination of the child’s life. Women have been fed a lie that they are “removing a blob of tissue” When they see a baby with fingers and toes and a beating heart, it’s far more difficult to say “Yeah go ahead and kill it.”

D) The slavery analogy works because the slaveholder had power of life or death over his slaves just as the pregnant woman has the power of life or death over her child. Neither the father, society or even other close relatives have any power.

E) You trot out the usual canards of “rape or incest” or “life of the mother.” Look at the statistics. Abortion is after sex birth control in the vast majority of changes. Even a pro abort would not say well we have to sacrifice 49,999,900 unborn babies because there are a few cases where the life of the mother is truly in danger. Somehow I don’t think those odds hold up.

“Might makes right” is the only justification for abortion in your viewpoint. There is no other possible reason to justify murder.

Lisa