Election a setback for the prolife movement

[utica]

I think this election was disasterous for the prolife movement. Should the democrats go on to take control of the senate, you can say bye-bye to appointing the justice we need to bring back sanity to the Supreme Court.

We Catholics need to put forth a more consistent moral and ethical message. We must not be cafateria catholics on either the left or the right.

Had we heeded our beloved Pope John Paul II, and urged the President not to invade Iraq, the Republicans would have held onto a large majority in both houses. Our desire to end the stain of abortion and our desire to secure the institution of marriage would have been closer to reality.

So, to anyone who supported the invasion of Iraq, are you happy now?

 

[mary_bobo]

I think this election was disasterous for the prolife movement. Should the democrats go on to take control of the senate, you can say bye-bye to appointing the justice we need to bring back sanity to the Supreme Court.

We Catholics need to put forth a more consistent moral and ethical message. We must not be cafateria catholics on either the left or the right.

Had we heeded our beloved Pope John Paul II, and urged the President not to invade Iraq, the Republicans would have held onto a large majority in both houses. Our desire to end the stain of abortion and our desire to secure the institution of marriage would have been closer to reality.

So, to anyone who supported the invasion of Iraq, are you happy now?

I’m not sure the war was the cause of the defeat. Many Republicans were in a collective snit and stayed home. Many of them decided to teach the GOP a lesson and voted for Dems. And the Dems did a masterful job of selecting moderate to conservative candidates who were more in keeping with the majority of Americans. IMO they will not be able to do much because the Dem party is run by far left folks. It may all turn out well in the end. History tells me that the GOP is always more effective when they are in the minority. And one final reason to ponder, too many folks who proclaim to be Catholics did not heed the advice of the Church and voted Dem. They somehow are able to justify a pro-death vote in their own minds. War is something that the politicians can authorize or not, abortion is final.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

What we need now is for the Bishops to public excommunicate those “Catholic” politicians who vote for death legislation. However, except for a few of the Bishops, I do not see them doing so.

 

[MrIrish]

What we need now is for the Bishops to public excommunicate those “Catholic” politicians who vote for death legislation. However, except for a few of the Bishops, I do not see them doing so.

Wish I knew why this is the case. Do they fear getting fired or something? What is it about “obstinate persistence in manifest grave sin” that is so hard to understand?

 

[utica]

War is something that the politicians can authorize or not, abortion is final.

I agree with you on this, and I understand the distiction.

It seems to me that in American politics there seems to be a Catholic right and a Catholic left vote. At least to a great extent.

I’m suggesting that those on the Catholic right need to take a hard look in the mirror and discern whether their support of the invasion of Iraq truly stemmed from Catholic teaching, or if it was more in line with Protestant evangelical teaching. If it was more of the later, then it would be good of them to acknowledge that this position is leading to the weakening of the momentum in the prolife movement.

There ought not be any Catholic right or Catholic left in American politics. Only Catholic, period.

And yes, the bishops need to take the lead on this.

 

[Lance]

So, to anyone who supported the invasion of Iraq, are you happy now?

Happy that Sadam’s sons are no longer raping women at will? Yes.

Happy that Sadam and his hinchmen are no longer feeding people into wood chippers and all the other forms of torture he devised? Yes

Happy that his WMD’s have not been found? NO

Happy that he no longer has WMD’s? Yes

Happy that Sadam will never again attack another country? Yes

Happy that many of the terrorist who would harm us are no longer able to do so? Yes

Happy that there was/is no plan to prevent and/or now end the quagmire we now find ourselves in? NO

So all in all the war was not a big thing with me in the election. In Illinois we had no choice, the Dem, the Rep and the Green Party candidates were all pro-abortion. I hope this is a wake up for the Republicans and they realize that they should become the party of conservatives and not try to emulate the Democrats.

 

[CathCentrist]

I’m not sure the war was the cause of the defeat. Many Republicans were in a collective snit and stayed home. Many of them decided to teach the GOP a lesson and voted for Dems. And the Dems did a masterful job of selecting moderate to conservative candidates who were more in keeping with the majority of Americans. IMO they will not be able to do much because the Dem party is run by far left folks. It may all turn out well in the end. History tells me that the GOP is always more effective when they are in the minority. And one final reason to ponder, too many folks who proclaim to be Catholics did not heed the advice of the Church and voted Dem. They somehow are able to justify a pro-death vote in their own minds. War is something that the politicians can authorize or not, abortion is final.

I couldnt disagree with you more.

Abortion is not final. Regardless whether its legal or illegal its always up to the woman to decide what shes gonna do. Catholics who voted DEM and didnt do so as a main reason FOR abortion being legal did nothing wrong. You are twisting the Churchs statements to extreme levels

 

[Lance]

I couldnt disagree with you more.

Abortion is not final. Regardless whether its legal or illegal its always up to the woman to decide what shes gonna do. Catholics who voted DEM and didnt do so as a main reason FOR abortion being legal did nothing wrong. You are twisting the Churchs statements to extreme levels

Abortion is not final? Tell that to the dead child in the garbage can.

 

[rascal_one]

Book on our topic -

How the Democrats went from being “the Catholic party” to the anti-Christian party? By David Carlin

hebookservice.com/products/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6986

The answer is no. You vote Democrat and we get Abortion judges, you get 13 year olds get abortions without parents even being notified, you get cloning, you get gay marriage.

Anyone who votes Democrat is voting Pro-Choice. The abortion party is out to make it legal and MORE prolific. Rationalizing that away is wishful thinking. Abortion was far more rare when it was illegal. After Roe V. Wade abortions skyrocketed.

These explanations I read here dont pass muster.

 

[utica]

Happy that Sadam’s sons are no longer raping women at will? Yes.

Happy that Sadam and his hinchmen are no longer feeding people into wood chippers and all the other forms of torture he devised? Yes

Happy that he no longer has WMD’s? Yes

Happy that Sadam will never again attack another country? Yes

Happy that many of the terrorist who would harm us are no longer able to do so? Yes

Lance, I agree with you about these things. These are good things that have come out of the war.

And for myself, now that we’re there, I support our staying in Iraq until the country is stable.

But it seems to me that, regarding the initial invasion, you’re making an argument that the ends justify the means.

If that’s the case, I don’t understand how that conforms to Catholic teaching.

 

[utica]

You are twisting the Churchs statements to extreme levels

CathCentrist, if you haven’t yet read them, I suggest that you read Evangelium Vitae, the Gospel of Life, and Dignitatis Humanae, the Declaration on Religious Freedom, and then make your argument.

We Catholics must oppose legal abortion. There is no way around it.

If you think we can support legal abortion, you need to show how that is possible given the teaching in the above two documents.

 

[m134e5]

Wish I knew why this is the case. Do they fear getting fired or something? What is it about “obstinate persistence in manifest grave sin” that is so hard to understand?

It would seem they are more afraid of offending people than offending God.

This is a call to prayer- for all of us. Let us not neglect that…

 

[Lance]

Lance, I agree with you about these things. These are good things that have come out of the war.

And for myself, now that we’re there, I support our staying in Iraq until the country is stable.

But it seems to me that, regarding the initial invasion, you’re making an argument that the ends justify the means.

If that’s the case, I don’t understand how that conforms to Catholic teaching.

I believe the reason the war was started was that Saddam had, or we honestly believed he had, WMD’s and was willing to use them on his neighbors and/or us. I also believe he was also a threat to world peace and supported terrorism. That is why I support our action there and I believe it is following Catholic teaching. I don’t find where the Church says we must wait to be attacked to take action against an enemy, even though we were attacked on 9/11/2001.

 

[CathCentrist]

CathCentrist, if you haven’t yet read them, I suggest that you read Evangelium Vitae, the Gospel of Life, and Dignitatis Humanae, the Declaration on Religious Freedom, and then make your argument.

We Catholics must oppose legal abortion. There is no way around it.

If you think we can support legal abortion, you need to show how that is possible given the teaching in the above two documents.

Sorry, you are the one who is wrong. Voting Dem is not supporting abortion as long as the reason you vote Dem isnt in support of abortion. YOU need to reread it.

 

[rlg94086]

Quite frankly, we have a lot of work ahead of us…as usual!

The only way to end legal abortion in the US is to:

A) Have Roe v Wade overturned in the courts - this would just lead to us still working hard to change hearts and minds at the state level. Those really determined to get an abortion will cross state lines, but at least we will save some in the states that ban it. So, to end it in the US, we would need to end it state-by-state.

AND/OR

B) A constitutional amendment recognizing the rights of the unborn - we aren’t even close to getting this through. We need to change hearts and minds nationally here, just as difficult as option A.

So, the bottomline…we have to keep up the fight, whichever side of the aisle we are on. And, more importantly, we need to continue to educate people and continue to have a presence outside of abortion providers.

If the pro-legalized abortion and anti-religious try to shut us down, we need to use the freedoms promised us in the constitution to stimey their efforts.

 

[Al_Masetti]

If the pro-legalized abortion and anti-religious try to shut us down, we need to use the freedoms promised us in the constitution to stimey their efforts.

We also need to review the efforts by our Congress and the courts to limit the freedoms promised us in the Constitution.

To be legalistic, please keep in mind that the Bill of Rights does not promise freedoms … instead it is worded to limit the power and freedom of the Federal government.

I recommend that folks read the exact wording of the 1st Ten Amendments to the Constitution.

It’s a carefully worded but important distinction.

Here’s the text of the U.S. Constitution:

Scroll down to the 1st Amendment and the others.

usconstitution.net/const.html

 

[chicago]

I’m not sure I would agree that this is a huge setback for the pro-life movement. Traditionally, pro-lifers have put too many of our eggs in the political basket, counting on that outlet to take care of things for us. While changes in law/jurisprudence is needed, ultimately the real work is on a more personal/grassroots/social level. And when we experience Republican defeats is typicall when we do better at that (as we know it is all that we’ve got). So this might be a good thing. That said, I would agree that we would gain more ground with greater consistency across the board.

 

[system]

Book on our topic -

How the Democrats went from being “the Catholic party” to the anti-Christian party? By David Carlin

hebookservice.com/products/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6986
.

Another book on topic, Where the Right Went Wrong, by Catholic Pat Buchanan
hebookservice.com/products/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6536

Some of the same opinions as Carlin only reversed.

The catholic church I attend is at least 50% democratic.

In any case, we seem to be a people split down the middle. We are so much split down the middle that I often wonder who benefits when the population is at odds this way?

 

[bekalc]

I believe the reason the war was started was that Saddam had, or we honestly believed he had, WMD’s and was willing to use them on his neighbors and/or us. I also believe he was also a threat to world peace and supported terrorism. That is why I support our action there and I believe it is following Catholic teaching. I don’t find where the Church says we must wait to be attacked to take action against an enemy, even though we were attacked on 9/11/2001.

Well perhaps you need to talk to the Pope than, (Benedict that is) when he said that premptive war is NOT in the catechism. And the fact that overwhelming majority of Catholics and bishops around the world oppossed this war…

Here’s the deal about Saddam. Was he a jerk yes! Cruel dicator certainly. But Saddam was sufficiently contained at the time although the embargo was to harsh in my opinion. He had been soundly beaten in the Iraq war, and the guy had no intention of getting beaten again.

At the time Saddam was making no threats or anything, nor was he openly conducting missle tests. Why after all would Saddam be stupid enough to use those kind of weapons on us, when he knows that we can obliterate him and his country…

In actually Saddam was a check against Islamic facism…But Saddam was a secularist, who also hated Iran. Now, with Saddam gone Iran has a full reign and there are terrible problems we face now in the Middle East.

Violence doesn’t solve problems and in many cases leads to more problems. Now are troops are walking targets for the terrorists, we are losing ground in Afghanstan, and there are a new crop of angry Muslims ready to kill Americans.

There is also the fact that the whole concept of Prememptive war. This person has weapons of mass destruction, which they may use against me (even though the person has made no threat too) thus, I need to attack them first. What’s to stop another nation aka China from using the same arguments against us. Most of the World views the US as a threat to world peace, and one of the things China doesn’t like about us, is our tendancy towards regime changes.

This type of policy instituted by the President is a very dangerous precedent. If something was going to be done about Iraq violating UN Resolutions, honestly it should have been left up to the UN not us.

 

[Thomas_B]

If the election is a setback for the pro-life movement (though I question that because it doesn’t seem to me like the Republican party made pro-life issues much of a priority) then, as Utica seems to indicate, the Republican Party has no one to blame but itself.

• Bush could have made a change in Iraq War policy, or at least signal that he was open to listening to other views, but didn’t. He finally seems to be getting the message by dumping Rumsfeld and having Jim Baker III analyze the situation.
• The seemingly unending corruption scandals- De Lay, Duke Cunnigham, Bob Ney, Robert Taft. Seems like if the Republicans truly care about moral issues like pro-life, they should have kept their personal moral powder clean.
• Shielding Mark Foley. It was documented that Rep. Reynolds had info. about Mark Foley’s behavior and chose to pass it along to others to deal with rather than handling it himself. Irresponsible.

So I think it was a good thing that the voters held their representatives accountable for their actions and lack of action on issues. Is it better to ‘kick the bums out’ that have betrayed the public’s trust, or keep a scoundrel in because he/she claims to be pro-life?

I don’t necessarily agree that Bush or other Republicans could have predicted that the Iraq War would eventually become the drag on the party that it is. But the war was certainly optional- we didn’t have to do it. And I never bought into the WMD rationale- there was never any evidence that Iraq still had WMDs. So it was a gamble that caused the Republicans to lose big.