Election a setback for the prolife movement

[mary_bobo]

I agree with you on this, and I understand the distiction.

It seems to me that in American politics there seems to be a Catholic right and a Catholic left vote. At least to a great extent.

I’m suggesting that those on the Catholic right need to take a hard look in the mirror and discern whether their support of the invasion of Iraq truly stemmed from Catholic teaching, or if it was more in line with Protestant evangelical teaching. If it was more of the later, then it would be good of them to acknowledge that this position is leading to the weakening of the momentum in the prolife movement.

There ought not be any Catholic right or Catholic left in American politics. Only Catholic, period.

And yes, the bishops need to take the lead on this.

Or at least speak with one voice.

 

[Ceil-1]

I have heard of a few pro-life Democrats, at least one in Pennsylvania and one out west. Perhaps the picture isn’t as bleak as it seems at the moment. I do forsee suffering for those willing to stand their ground. I suppose this is necessary to seperate the “men from the boys”, so to speak.

I

 

[Lance]

Well perhaps you need to talk to the Pope than, (Benedict that is) when he said that premptive war is NOT in the catechism. And the fact that overwhelming majority of Catholics and bishops around the world oppossed this war…

~`

Do you believe he thinks the US should have stayed out of the European war in WW II? Germany never attacked us, does he believe that if we have evidence which we think is true that some nation is going to nuke Tel Aviv or Cairo we should wait until they do it before attacking them? I am not bound by what bishops around the world think, only what my bishop thinks. To my knowledge he has not given an opinion on the war in Iraq other than asking us to pray for our service people and the people of Iraq.

 

[WenckebachCath]

Unfortunately, the pro-life stance adopted by the Republican platform is one of the few things the Republicans have gotten right, which is why I voted Democratic this time. I feel that the Republican administration has merely given lip-service to the pro-life movement in order to obtain votes. Meanwhile, they have gotten our nation deeply into debt over a war that has turned into a quaqmire. As shown by recent sexual scandals, there is a great deal of hypocrisy within the Republican ranks, and I believe those scandals were only the tip of the iceberg. I also feel strongly that the Republican party has strongly mishandled proper stewardship of our precious enviornment and resources.

I reject claims by some on this thread that our Church expects us to vote Republican. The only way we can influence either party is by withholding our vote, which is what I did this year in response to serious problems that I feel the Republican administration created both home and abroad with poor leadership and undue influence by corporate interests over the common good.

 

[Thomas_B]

Do you believe he thinks the US should have stayed out of the European war in WW II? Germany never attacked us, does he believe that if we have evidence which we think is true that some nation is going to nuke Tel Aviv or Cairo we should wait until they do it before attacking them? I am not bound by what bishops around the world think, only what my bishop thinks. To my knowledge he has not given an opinion on the war in Iraq other than asking us to pray for our service people and the people of Iraq.

Justifying a pre-emptive war because we ‘think’ another country has WMDs is a slippery slope. The international weapons inspectors back in 2003 couldn’t find evidence of any. So we invaded Iraq on the presumption that we did. Well, if we’re going to go down that road, it looks like N. Korea has some sort of nuclear weapon, we should invade them right? Iran appears to be working on one, then we should get them. How about Syria? Some people think Saddam moved his WMD arsenal there- we could invade them and find out. And of course we know China has nuclear weapons and who knows what they’re liable to do in the future.

Pre-emptive war isn’t a policy we can afford- look at the hundreds of millions spent on Iraq already. Oh, and it also isn’t justified by the Just War Doctrine. But that’s a discussion for another forum.

 

[Ruthmary]

I have heard of a few pro-life Democrats, at least one in Pennsylvania and one out west. Perhaps the picture isn’t as bleak as it seems at the moment. I do forsee suffering for those willing to stand their ground. I suppose this is necessary to seperate the “men from the boys”, so to speak.

I

A smattering of pro-life Democrats isn’t going to change the Democratic platform, and the fact of all the powerful pro-abort Dems who will now be on the war path. I’m afraid I don’t share any enthusiasm about Dems who call themselves pro-life. We don’t even know if they’re telling the truth.

 

[mikev]

I couldnt disagree with you more.

Abortion is not final. Regardless whether its legal or illegal its always up to the woman to decide what shes gonna do. Catholics who voted DEM and didnt do so as a main reason FOR abortion being legal did nothing wrong. You are twisting the Churchs statements to extreme levels

Abortion is absolutely final, the end. At least for the child.

However, voting for a dem is not necessarily wrong. It is wrong if the dem is pro-choice and there is another choice who isn’t. The same would hold true if the situation were reversed, the dem should get your vote if pro-life and opponent isn’t.

 

[Kendy]

I’m not sure the war was the cause of the defeat. Many Republicans were in a collective snit and stayed home. Many of them decided to teach the GOP a lesson and voted for Dems. And the Dems did a masterful job of selecting moderate to conservative candidates who were more in keeping with the majority of Americans. IMO they will not be able to do much because the Dem party is run by far left folks. It may all turn out well in the end. History tells me that the GOP is always more effective when they are in the minority. And one final reason to ponder, too many folks who proclaim to be Catholics did not heed the advice of the Church and voted Dem. They somehow are able to justify a pro-death vote in their own minds. War is something that the politicians can authorize or not, abortion is final.

Disgust at the Iraq situation was one of the prime reasons why voters were angry at the republicans. Every add I saw hear in Illinois for the democrats mentioned the failed Iraq policy.

 

[Kendy]

I couldnt disagree with you more.

Abortion is not final. Regardless whether its legal or illegal its always up to the woman to decide what shes gonna do. Catholics who voted DEM and didnt do so as a main reason FOR abortion being legal did nothing wrong. You are twisting the Churchs statements to extreme levels

If they voted for a pro-vchoice abortion when there was a pro-life alternative, then yes, they committed a serious sin.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Do you believe he thinks the US should have stayed out of the European war in WW II? Germany never attacked us, does he believe that if we have evidence which we think is true that some nation is going to nuke Tel Aviv or Cairo we should wait until they do it before attacking them? I am not bound by what bishops around the world think, only what my bishop thinks. To my knowledge he has not given an opinion on the war in Iraq other than asking us to pray for our service people and the people of Iraq.

Pope John Paul II actively oppsed the Iraq war.

cathnews.com/news/303/124.php

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

If they voted for a pro-vchoice abortion when there was a pro-life alternative, then yes, they committed a serious sin.

Kendy

I’d add some of my thoughts–

Kendy gives a very concise and accurate teaching of the Church as far as I can tell. The only hypothetical addition is if there were an equally grave intrinsic evil at issue, e.g. holocaust death camps in operation in america with equivalent numbers.

If you voted for a pro-abort when there was a pro-life choice your conscience is seriously malformed and you need to pray and study, pray mostly imho, to bring yourself in line with the Holy Spirit who breathes the Church teaching on this matter.

While you may have prudential differences on how best to achieve the end of abortion, if you cast a vote for a “pro-choice” candidate where there was a pro-life choice you have in spirit chosen death and not life. You have rejected the infinite character in humanity as the image of God by affirming and joining someone in grave error.

It is just awful that one comes to a Catholic forum and reads people saying they voted for someone who approves of killing the unborn.

I blame myself for my lack of prayer and my lack of courage. The moral darkness of this time is only relieved by the knowlege that Jesus is victorious in the end. Our free will could add so much praise to that victory. Mine could if I had and would just do more.

It is just such an awful time to be an american and see abortion still as the law of the land and people still allowing this horror and outside America it is even worse. Survival of the fittest is the new spirituality as humans are the tools of humans. Maybe it is not new, but evil characterized as a good: I do not know of a time when it was so blatant. A sick man calls for humans to be harvested; abortionists called choice; lust and perversion is educated officially in the schools…

And there is a general judgement too.

I thank Jesus for the Divine Mercy chaplet.

 

[bekalc]

Do you believe he thinks the US should have stayed out of the European war in WW II? Germany never attacked us, does he believe that if we have evidence which we think is true that some nation is going to nuke Tel Aviv or Cairo we should wait until they do it before attacking them? I am not bound by what bishops around the world think, only what my bishop thinks. To my knowledge he has not given an opinion on the war in Iraq other than asking us to pray for our service people and the people of Iraq.

Germany declared war on the United States in World War II (of course we had policies driving them to it.) But still, we didn’t issue a premptive strike on Germany. At the time, Hitler was taking over all of Europe. This is not the case with Saddam who was well contained.

 

[YinYangMom]

Yes, the democrat shift is a setback for the prolife movement, just as the republican domination the past 6-12 years was a setback for the environment and international relations.

This is how we need to approach it:
Obviously, pray.
Pray that the democrats use this opportunity to focus on the environment, health care, and the economy…there is much for them to do there in 2 years, so if we keep them focused on that they can do little harm to the advances made so far for pro-life. Then we have the presidential election in 2008 along with other congressional races.

In the meantime, Bush set up the Supreme Court quite nicely and they are reviewing critical cases at this moment. The pro-life movement itself - not relying on congressional legislation - can do much in this time to advance the cause - to continue to educate others about life issues.

And then we need to put our money where our mouths are and start building the campaign chests of pro-life candidates that can get on the ballot in 2008. There’s not much time here to get the job done…but there is a job to do.

I say keep the democratic party busy and distracted so they can’t push forth any pro-choice legislation in the next two years.

 

[Jeffrey]

While I do not support an ivasioin of a country… I did and still do support the liberation of Iraq.

I think this election was disasterous for the prolife movement. Should the democrats go on to take control of the senate, you can say bye-bye to appointing the justice we need to bring back sanity to the Supreme Court.

We Catholics need to put forth a more consistent moral and ethical message. We must not be cafateria catholics on either the left or the right.

Had we heeded our beloved Pope John Paul II, and urged the President not to invade Iraq, the Republicans would have held onto a large majority in both houses. Our desire to end the stain of abortion and our desire to secure the institution of marriage would have been closer to reality.

So, to anyone who supported the invasion of Iraq, are you happy now?

 

[chicago]

If they voted for a pro-vchoice abortion when there was a pro-life alternative, then yes, they committed a serious sin.

Kendy

If you voted for the pro-choice candidate BECAUSE they were in favor of legal abortion, then you may have committed a serious sin. If one’s reasons were other than that, but they voted for such a candidate only tolerating their position on abortion as something undesirable but pre-existing, then it might be inadvisable or less than ideal but not necessarily sinful (let alone seriously sinful).

 

[Catholic29]

Well, in my view the strategy of picketing (or praying in front) of abortion mills or lobbying politicians to suppress abortion, has by and large failed to substantially reduce abortions in this country.

Now that Congress is defintively no longer on the side of life, I think the lobbying and marching should be supplanted by educating and evangelizing of the masses. Lets just face it, orthodox pro-life Catholics and other Christians are a minority in ths US, we simply don’t have the political clout.

We also can’t deny the percieved lack of progress in Iraq has angered many Americans, and who can blame them for wanting a change of course. That too was a factor in pro-life’s losing ground in government.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

If you voted for the pro-choice candidate BECAUSE they were in favor of legal abortion, then you may have committed a serious sin. If one’s reasons were other than that, but they voted for such a candidate only tolerating their position on abortion as something undesirable but pre-existing, then it might be inadvisable or less than ideal but not necessarily sinful (let alone seriously sinful).

That is ONLY correct if there were an equivalent INTRINSIC evil of EQUAL or GREATER gravity to abortion. No such issue is identified in this election by the Church. You are seriously in error here and if you have voted for a “pro-choicer” , you have committed an objectively evil act by being complicit in supporting a candidate who trumpets an intrinsically evil act as a moral good in defiance of God’s law.

please pray on this (I will too)

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Well, in my view the strategy of picketing (or praying in front) of abortion mills or lobbying politicians to suppress abortion, has by and large failed to substantially reduce abortions in this country.

Now that Congress is defintively no longer on the side of life, I think the lobbying and marching should be supplanted by educating and evangelizing of the masses. Lets just face it, orthodox pro-life Catholics and other Christians are a minority in ths US, we simply don’t have the political clout.

We also can’t deny the percieved lack of progress in Iraq has angered many Americans, and who can blame them for wanting a change of course. That too was a factor in pro-life’s losing ground in government.

I occassionally pray the Rosary in front of the abortuaries with a Church group. Witnessing and praying have to be good things. I believe as a matter of faith that it is efficacious. I think more people not less are needed to join in heartfelt prayer to ask our Lady to obtain graces from the Holy Spirit to enlighten the darkness of those who kill the innocent.

Maybe it is not efficacious on the political realm, but maybe hearts one or two or a baby or two is saved. I have heard anecdotal stories of mother’s seeing the praying and changing their minds.

More could be done. That is true. Tough questions.

The Rosary is a peaceful and beautiful statement in opposition to a stark evil. It is that candle in the darkness.

 

[Kendy]

If you voted for the pro-choice candidate BECAUSE they were in favor of legal abortion, then you may have committed a serious sin. If one’s reasons were other than that, but they voted for such a candidate only tolerating their position on abortion as something undesirable but pre-existing, then it might be inadvisable or less than ideal but not necessarily sinful (let alone seriously sinful).

I don’t if anyone out there listens to catholic media, but yes, it is. Tons of Bishops and priests spent plenty of time and energy informing us before the election that you cannot vote for a pro-choice politician if there is a pro-life alternative even if you happen to like his position on minimum wage. The USCCB guide clearly stated that life was the primary concern for faithful catholics. There is no excuse for catholics to be ignorant.

And while I still angry, when are we going to excommunicate Nancy Pelosi. I am so frustrated by the spinelessness of our leaders.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Well, in my view the strategy of picketing (or praying in front) of abortion mills or lobbying politicians to suppress abortion, has by and large failed to substantially reduce abortions in this country.

Now that Congress is defintively no longer on the side of life, I think the lobbying and marching should be supplanted by educating and evangelizing of the masses. Lets just face it, orthodox pro-life Catholics and other Christians are a minority in ths US, we simply don’t have the political clout.

We also can’t deny the percieved lack of progress in Iraq has angered many Americans, and who can blame them for wanting a change of course. That too was a factor in pro-life’s losing ground in government.

There are too many pro-choice pew warmers in the catholic church, and other churches. The same woman who did not think it was important to vote for life although she is a Christian was busy defending animal rights yesterday, even comparing our treatment of animals to the slave trade. She can’t defend babies but she will defend the ladybug.