Eloping?

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I certainly would not trust an atheist child to care for me if I was incapacitated! Funerals. Oh my gosh.

My atheist in-laws lovingly cared for my father-in-law’s mother and aunt for close to 15 years before his aunt died at the age of 104. They built a small cottage in the back of their property so the ladies could enjoy privacy and a bit of independence. They ran all their errands for them, monitored and delivered medications, advocated for them with physicians and other health care providers, did their laundry, cooked and cleaned for them, and took care of their finances (both and after they died). My father-in-law’s mother lived in the cottage until she died of kidney disease at 95 or 96. They only put his aunt into a nursing home after she had a massive stroke two months before she died. My in-laws have physical limitations themselves, and they couldn’t lift or bathe her.

And you know the irony of this? My father-in-law has four Christian brothers, one of whom is Catholic, who had to practically be harangued into helping care for their mother and aunt.

Simply because someone is an atheist doesn’t mean they have no sense of filial responsibility or love. It also doesn’t mean they don’t have a moral compass. Based on the way my father-in-law cared for his mom and aunt, I’d rekon his moral compass is truer than those of all of his brothers.

Luna

 

[SwizzleStick]

My atheist in-laws lovingly cared for my father-in-law’s mother and aunt for close to 15 years before his aunt died at the age of 104. They built a small cottage in the back of their property so the ladies could enjoy privacy and a bit of independence. They ran all their errands for them, monitored and delivered medications, advocated for them with physicians and other health care providers, did their laundry, cooked and cleaned for them, and took care of their finances (both and after they died). My father-in-law’s mother lived in the cottage until she died of kidney disease at 95 or 96. They only put his aunt into a nursing home after she had a massive stroke two months before she died. My in-laws have physical limitations themselves, and they couldn’t lift or bathe her.

And you know the irony of this? My father-in-law has four Christian brothers, one of whom is Catholic, who had to practically be harangued into helping care for their mother and aunt.

Simply because someone is an atheist doesn’t mean they have no sense of filial responsibility or love. It also doesn’t mean they don’t have a moral compass. Based on the way my father-in-law cared for his mom and aunt, I’d rekon his moral compass is truer than those of all of his brothers.

Luna

Caring for the sick and elderly is a loving and right thing to do, no matter if one is an atheist or not.

The thing I was wondering about was whether or not an atheist would be in a position to know and understand Catholic viewpoints on end-of-life issues and other Faith issues, such as being sure the Sacrament of Anointing would be provided when necessary, as well as making an effort to be sure Last Rites are done too. Funeral Mass and other details of a funeral and burial would likely be already known and taken care of, but there are other things to be considered before that point too. An example would be if a loved one would suffer dementia and no other advocate is available, would an atheist be aware to notify caregivers that the access to Mass and Eucharist should be provided as long as possible? Would an atheist know that it is immoral to remove a feeding tube from someone? Those are little details that I was thinking about.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Caring for the sick and elderly is a loving and right thing to do, no matter if one is an atheist or not.

The thing I was wondering about was whether or not an atheist would be in a position to know and understand Catholic viewpoints on end-of-life issues and other Faith issues, such as being sure the Sacrament of Anointing would be provided when necessary, as well as making an effort to be sure Last Rites are done too. Funeral Mass and other details of a funeral and burial would likely be already known and taken care of, but there are other things to be considered before that point too. An example would be if a loved one would suffer dementia and no other advocate is available, would an atheist be aware to notify caregivers that the access to Mass and Eucharist should be provided as long as possible? Would an atheist know that it is immoral to remove a feeding tube from someone? Those are little details that I was thinking about.

I think anyone caring for someone of a different faith is capable of learning about that faith’s teachings about medical and end-of-life issues. Cargivers can always start by asking the individual under their care what they are, and if that person doesn’t know or can’t articulate them, they can reach out to the faith community in that area to get answers. If I were a caregiver, I would also contact nursing homes, hospitals, and hospices in my area because I’m sure they face these kinds of questions all the time.

I also suspect a priest, minister, rabbi, monk, or imam (or someone who works in their office) would be thankful to answer questions and provide guidance.

In the end I think it all depends on how much the caregiver respects the religious wishes/requests/requirements of the person they’re caring for. You don’t have to share someone’s faith to make sure that another person is living their faith when they can no longer speak for themselves. It’s a matter of compassion and willingness to learn, not one of religiousity.

Luna

 

[SwizzleStick]

…It’s a matter of compassion and willingness to learn, not one of religiousity.

Luna

Maybe. Limitations exist if one does not understand something at all. End of life care is just one of many little details that could be an issue.

BEL is being considerate and compassionate in trying to limit hurt for her fiance’s family, which is commendable. But, will those efforts truly be effective? How does one truly ease that kind of hurt, especially when one doesn’t comprehend what Faith means and how truly integral it is to life for a devout person?

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

BEL is being considerate and compassionate in trying to limit hurt for her fiance’s family, which is commendable. But, will those efforts truly be effective? How does one truly ease that kind of hurt, especially when one doesn’t comprehend what Faith means and how truly integral it is to life for a devout person?

You don’t have to be a member of a faith, any faith, to understand on a fundamental level how important it is to the lives of others. I know this from my years of living among first Buddhists and then Muslims with nary another Christian in site. And I trust that my agnostic husband would go to the wall to make sure my Catholic beliefs were respected if I could not speak for myself. I know I can trust him because he’s defended my beliefs to his family in the past. He thinks much of what we believe is hocus-pocus, but he knows it’s vital for me, so by extension it’s vital for him.

I don’t think there’s any way to make this kind of bad news palatable. And some hurts can’t be eased, at least not without a lot of mental work and time. It sounds harsh, but that’s life. We can do as much as we can to buffer ourselves and our loved ones, but at some point we - and by we I mean us Catholics - have to trust God.

When I was re-reading this thread this morning, I was reminded of “To a Mouse”:

But Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!

Luna

 

[SwizzleStick]

You don’t have to be a member of a faith, any faith, to understand on a fundamental level how important it is to the lives of others. I know this from my years of living among first Buddhists and then Muslims with nary another Christian in site. And I trust that my agnostic husband would go to the wall to make sure my Catholic beliefs were respected if I could not speak for myself. I know I can trust him because he’s defended my beliefs to his family in the past. He thinks much of what we believe is hocus-pocus, but he knows it’s vital for me, so by extension it’s vital for him.

I don’t think there’s any way to make this kind of bad news palatable. And some hurts can’t be eased, at least not without a lot of mental work and time. It sounds harsh, but that’s life. We can do as much as we can to buffer ourselves and our loved ones, but at some point we - and by we I mean us Catholics - have to trust God.

When I was re-reading this thread this morning, I was reminded of “To a Mouse”:

But Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men
Gang aft agley,
An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain,
For promis’d joy!

Luna

Very good post with sound reasoning and real life experience and understanding too.

At this point, I offer prayer for all and hope for the best for all of them. May God bless all!

 

[SwizzleStick]

I just read an older thread from January on teen premarital sex. It was a difficult read, very gut-wrenching, heart-wrenching, tragic, a thread about loss and great suffering started by a very loving, Catholic mom who appears to have lost her son to our decadent society. I hadn’t seen it before, but it was active today with new posts, so I noticed it. Once I began reading, I read all of it. I don’t know why I read all of it because the more I read, the more sad and disheartened I became.

But, in reading the thread, I came across a post you made, BEL. I’m an anonymous stranger on the internet and I felt blindsided and smacked reading what I read. It really does make me wonder what you and your fiance have shared with his family. I cannot help but think the family doesn’t know much, that you haven’t shared much at all. And, they probably won’t ever know much at all because you feel it isn’t their business. You stated that you and your fiance’s mom had some differences (major understatement, considering known statements), but she was welcoming and lovely anyway. She doesn’t know, doesn’t have any idea, does she? Do you intend to not let her ever see, ever know about who you are, what you believe, what you stand for?

Between this thread and that thread, I am not sure which is more sad.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You stated that you and your fiance’s mom had some differences (major understatement, considering known statements), but she was welcoming and lovely anyway. She doesn’t know, doesn’t have any idea, does she? Do you intend to not let her ever see, ever know about who you are, what you believe, what you stand for?

Between this thread and that thread, I am not sure which is more sad.

Um…no. Very clearly she will know what we believe. She’ll know about the wedding, she’ll know that our children aren’t baptized or being exposed to religion, she’s seen my pro-choice bumper stickers, etc.

But this isn’t about me. And because its not it can’t be done on my timetable. This is about my fiance and his relationship with his family, so he’s the one who makes the decisions on this one.

And please, stop bringing other very long threads in to this very long thread. If you have something to address on another thread do it there, or feel free to PM me and I’ll get back to you, so as to avoid detailing another poster’s conversation.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Um…no. Very clearly she will know what we believe. She’ll know about the wedding, she’ll know that our children aren’t baptized or being exposed to religion, she’s seen my pro-choice bumper stickers, etc….

Someday she will learn, but not until the deed (marriage) is done or at least nearly done, right? Mom likely still has hope that her son will find His way back Home, that he will have a Catholic life and marriage and raise a Catholic family someday. The two of you are keeping the truth from her, them. You are trying to be kind and probably trying to take the easier way for yourselves too, but I’m not sure that keeping it from the family is fair to anybody. At least if they knew, they would know they have a fight on their hands. This way, they’ve already lost the fight, lost the son in a very real way.

…But this isn’t about me. And because its not it can’t be done on my timetable. This is about my fiance and his relationship with his family, so he’s the one who makes the decisions on this one. …

I cannot know, but the relationship with his family may have already taken quite a blow, considering his choices. He is a young man raised in a devout Catholic family who has decided he is an atheist, who is marrying an atheist and said atheist believes in and completely supports abortion, the gay lifestyle. Those are three HUGE areas of dissent. I’m sure they will always love their son and will always want what is best for him. But, they might have to distance themselves to survive what is coming down the pike, what he has chosen instead. Also, once they learn they have been duped, things may change. Mom might be welcoming now, but knowledge may change things drastically because they will see the divides, the losses, eventually and also know that their hands have been tied because they were kept in the dark and were ignorant to the danger. Anger and regret over what might have been can be a terrible, damaging, draining thing.

…And please, stop bringing other very long threads in to this very long thread. If you have something to address on another thread do it there, or feel free to PM me and I’ll get back to you, so as to avoid detailing another poster’s conversation.

The other thread has relevance, as does the other one I mentioned earlier because they offer important details to this conversation. For example, the anguish, suffering, devastation, sense of betrayal and loss, etc. that that mother is feeling might not be so far off from the anguish and suffering your fiance’s family may be dealing with once they find out more. Someone on this thread has asked you if the family knows you are an atheist. I don’t think you have answered. I suspect there is much they do not know. They are in the fight of their lives and they will lose before they even know it. Tragic.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Someday she will learn, but not until the deed (marriage) is done or at least nearly done, right? Mom likely still has hope that her son will find His way back Home, that he will have a Catholic life and marriage and raise a Catholic family someday. The two of you are keeping the truth from her, them. You are trying to be kind and probably trying to take the easier way for yourselves too, but I’m not sure that keeping it from the family is fair to anybody. At least if they knew, they would know they have a fight on their hands. This way, they’ve already lost the fight, lost the son in a very real way.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about as far as fight on their hands and this way they’ve lost. As far as telling his family, that ball is in his court. That’s not my place. Its something that we have discussed at length repeatedly, but in the end it is his choice, and he will have to live with the consequences either way. I won’t even push him one way or another, because its not my relationship at stake and he knows them better than I ever will.

I cannot know, but the relationship with his family may have already taken quite a blow, considering his choices. He is a young man raised in a devout Catholic family who has decided he is an atheist, who is marrying an atheist and said atheist believes in and completely supports abortion, the gay lifestyle. Those are three HUGE areas of dissent. I’m sure they will always love their son and will always want what is best for him. But, they might have to distance themselves to survive what is coming down the pike, what he has chosen instead. Also, once they learn they have been duped, things may change. Mom might be welcoming now, but knowledge may change things drastically because they will see the divides, the losses, eventually and also know that their hands have been tied because they were kept in the dark and were ignorant to the danger. Anger and regret over what might have been can be a terrible, damaging, draining thing.

He actually has a very strong and close relationship with his family. They know that we are both politically liberal and they haven’t said anything about it yet. Politics are just something that we don’t talk about. But they know that his best friend is gay. And that my best friend is gay for that matter (and this guy has been our roommate). They know that our gay friends have all of our love and support when it comes to finding love and starting a family. Its never been an issue. They know that we are both pro-choice, but as that is their biggest issue we just don’t talk about it. Besides, why spoil family dinners with politics? Its just a matter of respect for differing viewpoints.

And I certainly wouldn’t say that they were duped, or that their hands were tied in any way. We never, ever represented ourselves as anything less than a modern secular couple who live together. They do know that I was not raised or baptized Catholic, and they know that I don’t currently engage in any form of religious activity. They know that he has refused to go to mass for 8 or 9 years now. They may still have hope, but I’m sure that it isn’t much.

The other thread has relevance, as does the other one I mentioned earlier because they offer important details to this conversation. For example, the anguish, suffering, devastation, sense of betrayal and loss, etc. that that mother is feeling might not be so far off from the anguish and suffering your fiance’s family may be dealing with once they find out more. Someone on this thread has asked you if the family knows you are an atheist. I don’t think you have answered. I suspect there is much they do not know. They are in the fight of their lives and they will lose before they even know it. Tragic.

I answered that earlier. A long time ago his mom asked what I did religiously and I told her that I was raised in a liberal Protestant church but that I didn’t really do anything now. She smiled and said ok. It is absolutely not my place to “out” us to his family. I have far more respect for him than that. Its his parents, his family, his decision, and his timetable.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

And you keep popping in here every few days to remind me about the hurt, anger devastation, etc. I get that it will be hard for them, I really do. But at the same time right now I’m trying to come up with a course of action that is best for everyone. Him, me, his family, my family, our future children and our relationships with all of the aforementioned people. Right now I’m basically just researching my options. Asking anonymous Catholics online, speaking with my mother, I plan on meeting with a priest, etc. And I’m taking what I glean back to my fiance and we are going from there.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I’m not sure what you’re talking about as far as fight on their hands and this way they’ve lost. As far as telling his family, that ball is in his court. That’s not my place. Its something that we have discussed at length repeatedly, but in the end it is his choice, and he will have to live with the consequences either way. I won’t even push him one way or another, because its not my relationship at stake and he knows them better than I ever will.

He actually has a very strong and close relationship with his family. They know that we are both politically liberal and they haven’t said anything about it yet. Politics are just something that we don’t talk about. But they know that his best friend is gay. And that my best friend is gay for that matter (and this guy has been our roommate). They know that our gay friends have all of our love and support when it comes to finding love and starting a family. Its never been an issue. They know that we are both pro-choice, but as that is their biggest issue we just don’t talk about it. Besides, why spoil family dinners with politics? Its just a matter of respect for differing viewpoints.

And I certainly wouldn’t say that they were duped, or that their hands were tied in any way. We never, ever represented ourselves as anything less than a modern secular couple who live together. They do know that I was not raised or baptized Catholic, and they know that I don’t currently engage in any form of religious activity. They know that he has refused to go to mass for 8 or 9 years now. They may still have hope, but I’m sure that it isn’t much.

I answered that earlier. A long time ago his mom asked what I did religiously and I told her that I was raised in a liberal Protestant church but that I didn’t really do anything now. She smiled and said ok. It is absolutely not my place to “out” us to his family. I have far more respect for him than that. Its his parents, his family, his decision, and his timetable.

The most important thing to Catholic parents is to pass on the Faith to their children. If we fail at that, we fail. That is our priority. So, much is lost if our children turn out to embrace our culture, to be pro-choice, homosexual lifestyle-supporting atheists, although I suppose hope springs eternal, since as long as there is life, there is still hope for good amongst all that loss and ruin.

…I answered that earlier. A long time ago his mom asked what I did religiously and I told her that I was raised in a liberal Protestant church but that I didn’t really do anything now. She smiled and said ok. …

The above illustrates my point. Did you cut to the chase and tell her that you don’t believe in God, period? Does she know you are an atheist? I’ve said it before in this thread, but it apparently bears repeating. Not practicing ones faith and being an atheist are two vastly different things.

I guess you just don’t understand. I guess I don’t either. If everything is so open and honest and already known and peachy, what is the purpose of this thread?

 

[SwizzleStick]

And you keep popping in here every few days to remind me about the hurt, anger devastation, etc. I get that it will be hard for them, I really do. But at the same time right now I’m trying to come up with a course of action that is best for everyone. Him, me, his family, my family, our future children and our relationships with all of the aforementioned people. Right now I’m basically just researching my options. Asking anonymous Catholics online, speaking with my mother, I plan on meeting with a priest, etc. And I’m taking what I glean back to my fiance and we are going from there.

You know what, you are right. I’m sorry. I am reacting as a Catholic mom, reacting and thinking how I would feel if it were my own children, making this personal, becoming emotional, just reacting. I shouldn’t do that because it isn’t my family.

You are kind. You are trying to be considerate. I have made it abundantly clear (major understatment again, right?) that I think this journey will be heart-wrenching for his family, probably for all of you since a devout Catholic family and an atheist couple are so divergent. So, I guess I should once again offer just this below and be quiet now.

…At this point, I offer prayer for all and hope for the best for all of them. May God bless all!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

You know what, you are right. I’m sorry. I am reacting as a Catholic mom, reacting and thinking how I would feel if it were my own children, making this personal, becoming emotional, just reacting. I shouldn’t do that because it isn’t my family.

You are kind. You are trying to be considerate. I have made it abundantly clear (major understatment again, right?) that I think this journey will be heart-wrenching for his family, probably for all of you since a devout Catholic family and an atheist couple are so divergent. So, I guess I should once again offer just this below and be quiet now.

And after thinking about it this morning, I really believe that BlueEyedLady is being kinder and more considerate of his parents than is her fiance’. At least she is here, and came here in order to understand her future in-laws and not just be cavalier about the situation.

Meanwhile, the son is not talking to his parents AT ALL, he is leaving them hanging in the breeze. They probably know on some level that he isn’t practicing but letting them continue to hope that he will come back to the Church is cruel of him. I think he’s being cowardly and I don’t think he deserves respect for that.

 

[SwizzleStick]

And after thinking about it this morning, I really believe that BlueEyedLady is being kinder and more considerate of his parents than is her fiance’. At least she is here, and came here in order to understand her future in-laws and not just be cavalier about the situation.

Meanwhile, the son is not talking to his parents AT ALL, he is leaving them hanging in the breeze. They probably know on some level that he isn’t practicing but letting them continue to hope that he will come back to the Church is cruel of him. I think he’s being cowardly and I don’t think he deserves respect for that.

Yes, I think BEL is trying to be kind.

Unfortunately, I cannot disagree about the son.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

BEL, I can’t believe I read all ___ pages of this thread, but it is a compelling question. I forget though, has anyone suggested you just talk to his family about it and find out how they feel?

I think your fiance needs to have a sit-down with your parents, and just come out with the fact that you are not planning on having a faith-based wedding. Assuming they have questions, he will likely end up telling him that he doesn’t believe in God anymore and that he does not plan to practice the Catholic faith anymore. I think it’s probably true that they have their suspicions, or at least are wondering - only someone in complete denial. He should tell them the things you tell us - that he loves them and doesn’t want to hurt them, which is why he waited this long to tell them this information, that he knows that they are disappointed, that he knows that they might not be able to support the wedding, and that you and he respect that, but that you believe it would be wrong to lie at your wedding which is why you aren’t willing to have a church wedding. Give them some time to let this sink in. This might take a few minutes, or it might take a few days or weeks. But the next thing to do is to ask them straight out - will you come to a small wedding and rejoice with us? Would us eloping make things even worse for you, or would it relieve you of the burden of having to decide whether or not to attend? Really, you are trying to find out what decision will hurt them the least? Just ask them.

These are the type of questions I would ask. For the record, and I’m sure you know this, as you seem to be well informed on such topics, I wouldn’t support the wedding you are describing either, if it were my child involved. I don’t think I would want you to have a church wedding in which you lied - that would be invalid anyway. I would probably rather there be no wedding, and that my child would remain single rather that start a family, or have a civil marriage without having children, while in this state of unbelief. I would definitely be very hurt to hear the truth about his atheistic beliefs, but I would be more hurt if I found out that he and you deliberately kept them from me because it wasn’t my business - true, it’s not, but personally, I want very much to have a close relationship with my adult children someday, and I know the religious beliefs of every person with whom I have a close relationship - because those things are important to who you are. So I would be hurt that my child would be judging me as not worthy of having a close relationship with. Disappointing a parent is better than shutting them out of your life, at least in most cases.

 

[PatriceA]

BEL, I can’t believe I read all ___ pages of this thread, but it is a compelling question. I forget though, has anyone suggested you just talk to his family about it and find out how they feel?

I think your fiance needs to have a sit-down with your parents, and just come out with the fact that you are not planning on having a faith-based wedding. Assuming they have questions, he will likely end up telling him that he doesn’t believe in God anymore and that he does not plan to practice the Catholic faith anymore. I think it’s probably true that they have their suspicions, or at least are wondering - only someone in complete denial. He should tell them the things you tell us - that he loves them and doesn’t want to hurt them, which is why he waited this long to tell them this information, that he knows that they are disappointed, that he knows that they might not be able to support the wedding, and that you and he respect that, but that you believe it would be wrong to lie at your wedding which is why you aren’t willing to have a church wedding. Give them some time to let this sink in. This might take a few minutes, or it might take a few days or weeks. But the next thing to do is to ask them straight out - will you come to a small wedding and rejoice with us? Would us eloping make things even worse for you, or would it relieve you of the burden of having to decide whether or not to attend? Really, you are trying to find out what decision will hurt them the least? Just ask them.

These are the type of questions I would ask. For the record, and I’m sure you know this, as you seem to be well informed on such topics, I wouldn’t support the wedding you are describing either, if it were my child involved. I don’t think I would want you to have a church wedding in which you lied - that would be invalid anyway. I would probably rather there be no wedding, and that my child would remain single rather that start a family, or have a civil marriage without having children, while in this state of unbelief. I would definitely be very hurt to hear the truth about his atheistic beliefs, but I would be more hurt if I found out that he and you deliberately kept them from me because it wasn’t my business - true, it’s not, but personally, I want very much to have a close relationship with my adult children someday, and I know the religious beliefs of every person with whom I have a close relationship - because those things are important to who you are. So I would be hurt that my child would be judging me as not worthy of having a close relationship with. Disappointing a parent is better than shutting them out of your life, at least in most cases.

Gave the same advice PAGES ago. Tell the family the truth, let them decide how little or how much they want to participate in a wedding ceremony of any nature. I don’t understand that its gotten this far in this scenerio and the parents still haven’t had a face to face discussion on what is actually happening.

 

[maryjk]

Gave the same advice PAGES ago. Tell the family the truth, let them decide how little or how much they want to participate in a wedding ceremony of any nature. I don’t understand that its gotten this far in this scenerio and the parents still haven’t had a face to face discussion on what is actually happening.

Because BEL goes back and forth between not wanting to hurt his parents and thinking that it isn’t any of their business.

There has certainly been ample time to talk to them. It just doesn’t seem to be a priority for their son.

 

[PatriceA]

Because BEL goes back and forth between not wanting to hurt his parents and thinking that it isn’t any of their business.

There has certainly been ample time to talk to them. It just doesn’t seem to be a priority for their son.

and if I was in a similar position as BEL, the lack of priority by the son would give me pause to proceed further in any wedding plans.

 

[mini_me640]

and if I was in a similar position as BEL, the lack of priority by the son would give me pause to proceed further in any wedding plans.

In fairness, he’s probably terrified of having this conversation and I’m sure he doesn’t want to hurt them. It’s easy to say just do it when you’re not the one who has to deal with the whole situation. I don’t disagree that he needs to do it, I’m just saying the fact that he’s been putting it off doesn’t make him a bad guy. Who hasn’t delayed an unpleasant situation before?