Eloping?

[PatriceA]

I’m just saying if they already know the couple is non-religious, do they really need to be told how non-religious? Is there a huge practical difference in total apathy and unbelief as far as the family is concerned? If they haven’t asked, I’m thinking they really don’t want to know or they’ve already kind of figured it out.

Yes, and yes. Especially if the child in question is getting married, and the OP still has some hope that her fiance’s family would like to attend and have a good, future relationship with the family. To not say anything in hopes that the family will show up for the wedding/elopement is deceiving the family. Courtesey and respect should still require the couple to tell the parents what is truly going on. To not say anything before this marriage, is giving the big white elephant in the room a permanent invitation to stay.

If the family has already figured it out to a certain extent, then the conversation shouldn’t be that hard and the OP worried for not. But honesty will build on any future relationship the OP and her fiance hope to have with his parents.

 

[vera_dicere]

Maybe I missed something, but I think if you eloped, the super duper Catholic family would be, well, kinda outraged. You may be marrying your love, but you’re also getting hsi family, do you want his family to label you “that atheist that stole our son?”

I know someone who was in exactly the same situation as you, and they eloped to avoid the cost and fuss of a wedding, and 8 years later, the family is still not speaking to them.

Maybe you could skype the thing? Good luck regardless!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Thanks everyone for your advice! My fiance and I have done a lot a lot a lot of talking this past week and while we still aren’t sure exactly where we are going to go or how we are going to proceed, we both have a better understanding of the situation and of the other person’s feelings.

Interestingly enough, he just got his Easter letter from his sister and she had some insight for us. I didn’t even know that she knew that he was an atheist, but apparently he told her several years ago before she even entered the convent. He doesn’t like discussing religion with her, because he’s always afraid of how its going to go, but she insists, and so far its been nothing but good things. He wrote his letter back basically rehashing his feelings. But she’s his older sister, and that’s what older siblings are for. I really can’t wait to meet her, she seems like such a wonderful person.

Thanks again for all of the (name removed by moderator)ut. You guys are great!

 

[thewanderer]

Thanks everyone for your advice! My fiance and I have done a lot a lot a lot of talking this past week and while we still aren’t sure exactly where we are going to go or how we are going to proceed, we both have a better understanding of the situation and of the other person’s feelings.

Interestingly enough, he just got his Easter letter from his sister and she had some insight for us. I didn’t even know that she knew that he was an atheist, but apparently he told her several years ago before she even entered the convent. He doesn’t like discussing religion with her, because he’s always afraid of how its going to go, but she insists, and so far its been nothing but good things. He wrote his letter back basically rehashing his feelings. But she’s his older sister, and that’s what older siblings are for. I really can’t wait to meet her, she seems like such a wonderful person.

Thanks again for all of the (name removed by moderator)ut. You guys are great!

I’m glad its working out!

 

[SwizzleStick]

Thanks everyone for your advice! My fiance and I have done a lot a lot a lot of talking this past week and while we still aren’t sure exactly where we are going to go or how we are going to proceed, we both have a better understanding of the situation and of the other person’s feelings. …

I have been thinking about you and your situation quite a lot. I find it very sad and I see a lot of potential for great loss. I hope your fiance finds a way to work things out with his family without too much pain for all involved, though I don’t see how that will work, maybe because as a Catholic mom, I’m thinking about how I would feel in this situation. I hope it goes as well as it can.

I keep thinking about the devout Catholic parents who will learn that their son not only doesn’t practice the Faith, but that he himself no longer believes in God and he is marrying an atheist. Faith and family are so tied up together, I just don’t know how a family would deal after hearing such news. I would think both sides have to be profoundly affected. I would think that the relationships and feelings about each other could likely change for both the adult child and the parents. I would think closeness would be bruised. I don’t see how it wouldn’t be. I would think parents would be just devastated and heartbroken to learn that Faith and God have been rejected completely.

My niece just made her First Communion. We had a family gathering to help her celebrate her receipt of the Sacrament. I wonder how an atheist would understand and truly be a part of that celebration when he doesn’t even believe in God? Some family members are non-practicing Catholics, so the impact for them is that they are left out of things, i.e. being asked to be God parents, being asked to be Confirmation sponsors, etc. Not asking them is necessary and sad, but for them to not believe in God at all would make the impact even more profound when sacracments are celebrated.

In general, I’m thinking of all the little day-to-day aspects of Faith, practice of the Faith, and how those could no longer be shared and how that would be so hard. I’m thinking of little things and big things that would cause pain in remembering a beloved child doesn’t believe or think at all the same, that world views are so very different, that childhood teaching and guidance and belief are completely rejected.

Several things immediately come to mind that would no longer be shared, where views would drastically diverge. I would think so many things would be viewed differently and constantly reflected on in a parent’s mind and heart. Those things would include smaller day-to-day things, things like prayer. Praying before and after meals, saying prayers of thanksgiving. Saying short little prayers and blessings throughout the day. Making the sign of the cross. Saying a Hail Mary for someone whenever one hears and/or sees lights or sirens on an emergency vehicle going to someone’s aid. Saying a family rosary. Saying the Chaplet. Attending daily and Sunday Mass. Observing Holy Days of Obligation. Going to Adoration. Observing a Friday penance each Friday. Blessing self, child, house with holy water. Observing Lent, giving something up, doing something more. Receiving ashes and going to Mass on Ash Wednesday. Fasting and abstaining when appropriate. Anticipating the celebration of the Nativity and preparing during Advent. Sharing beliefs and practices on Christmas, Easter and the Triduum. Embracing Faith to guide thoughts, decisions and actions on sex, abortion, politics, education, weddings, family planning, babies. Knowing that there may not be a next generation in that branch of the family and if there is, children will not learn about God and will not have the Sacraments of Baptism, Reconciliation, and Confirmation. Knowing that child and parents do not see eye-to-eye on decisions about end of life care, Anointing of the Sick, Last Rites, funerals.

So many things may change and be impacted and likely thought of over and over again and knowing all those things and many more are lost may be very difficult to accept because the overall effect is huge. I would suggest that you allow his parents time to mourn because the losses they will see are very real and likely will be keenly felt. Potential for sufferering may be great. I know you think that religion is none of the parents’ business, but it is still something they will probably think about and have a very difficult time dealing with since you said they are devout Catholics. To me, that means they live and breath the Catholic Faith. All those things pointed out above (disjointed and badly, I know, so sorry about that) and many more may seem silly to you, but being Catholic is a constant and it impacts all of life. It is good and wise of you to be very gentle and considerate of them, as gentle and considerate as you can be, but understand that that attempt may not ease the situation as you would like because this news is likely very big and very bad for the family.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Embracing Faith to guide thoughts, decisions and actions on sex, abortion, politics, education, weddings, family planning, babies. **Knowing that there may not be a next generation in that branch of the family and if there is, children will not learn about God and will not have the Sacraments of Baptism, Reconciliation, and Confirmation. Knowing that son and parents do not see eye-to-eye on decisions about end of life care, Anointing of the Sick, funerals. **

This is especially where my heart would break, because the child would have no choice of his/her own, yet the parents would make that decision and cause the child to have no faith to guide them. I can understand how desperate grandparents try to clandestinely baptize the babies. I don’t support that, but I understand why they would.

I certainly would not trust an atheist child to care for me if I was incapacitated! Funerals. Oh my gosh.

Excellent post, Swizzle. It is a BIG thing. You are very right. And will get bigger if and when children come along.

 

[SwizzleStick]

This is especially where my heart would break, because the child would have no choice of his/her own, yet the parents would make that decision and cause the child to have no faith to guide them. I can understand how desperate grandparents try to clandestinely baptize the babies. I don’t support that, but I understand why they would.

I certainly would not trust an atheist child to care for me if I was incapacitated! Funerals. Oh my gosh.

Excellent post, Swizzle. It is a BIG thing. You are very right. And will get bigger if and when children come along.

It IS big. It just breaks my heart to think about it. So sad. So difficult. And, I wish I could offer something positive, but rejecting God and the Faith is not at all positive. As a parent, I cannot help but think with a parent viewpoint. I just hope the young man finds his way back Home someday.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Don’t get me wrong, I think this will be bad. But I don’t think it will be as bad as swizzlestick says it will if for no other reason than he hasn’t been participating in their faith for years. Its not like all of those family practices will suddenly be ripped away.

 

[PatriceA]

Don’t get me wrong, I think this will be bad. But I don’t think it will be as bad as swizzlestick says it will if for no other reason than he hasn’t been participating in their faith for years. Its not like all of those family practices will suddenly be ripped away.

The hope that he would become actively involved once again in the faith with which he was raised when he got married and started to raise his own family will be ripped away. I think that’s the part you don’t quite understand.

 

[mini_me640]

This is especially where my heart would break, because the child would have no choice of his/her own, yet the parents would make that decision and cause the child to have no faith to guide them. I can understand how desperate grandparents try to clandestinely baptize the babies. I don’t support that, but I understand why they would.

**I certainly would not trust an atheist child to care for me if I was incapacitated! Funerals. Oh my gosh. **

Excellent post, Swizzle. It is a BIG thing. You are very right. And will get bigger if and when children come along.

Really? Atheist does not mean uncaring… They presumably love their parents. And most children would respect their parents’ wishes about funerals and the like.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Really? Atheist does not mean uncaring… They presumably love their parents. And most children would respect their parents’ wishes about funerals and the like.

No kidding. My mom and I are very close, and I love her and I know and respect what she believes. I would never go against that when it came to her end of life wishes, and I would stand in the way of anyone who did.

That probably goes 10x as much for my fiance and his mom. He’s a strong, loyal person and he would absolutely conduct her end of life stuff in accordance with her morals and beliefs.

 

[ryecroft]

As sad as this may be for your future husband’s parents, I still think it’s best that you do it this way. It’s good that you’re not just going to pretend and go through the motions of having a Catholic wedding. It may hurt the parents, but better now than down the line when (if there ever is a kid) they want to find out when the Christening is and get told - 'there isn’t going to be one - we haven’t been religious/Catholic since long before the wedding. I just hope this can be done without ruining your wedding. You are a very kind atheist!
God Bless
Rye

 

[godislove11]

Hi! I’m new here to the website and forums Bluedeyedlady, I’ve briefly read your post! If you don’t mind me asking, why are you atheist? Have you been to mass before? I used to be atheist as well until I met my current boyfriend. At first I didn’t understand but something in me felt compelled to go to mass. Over time (a year and a half to be honest) I began to understand the beauty and importance of the church and God. I guess by being open to God even though I thought it was completely ludacris at the time changed my view. I think adoration, going to mass (even daily mass), reading about the church and teachings, praying the rosary even though I didn’t fully understand and just studying helped. Before something was missing. Sometimes people fill their lives with distractions, like a sport, work, their spouse, tv, alcohol, what have you, but in reality your only purpose in life is to glorify God. Of course this is my opinion only but I’m just curious what your background is etc if you don’t mind sharing! What do you think your purpose in life is? Do you believe in any sort of afterlife at all or believe your future children live through you? I’ve also noticed after being open to God and faith that life has started working out for me. It might sound strange, but I’m the happiest I’ve ever been with myself, relationships, and work as long as I put God first. I have higher morals and think more of others. Confession along with adoration and mass help in so many ways. Sorry for being nosy. Thanks and I will pray for you and your future spouse Also, please forgive me if this sounds rude, but if you both are atheist what is the point in getting married? I’m just trying to understand… for security? or financial reasons? because you want to have kids? When I was atheist I always thought “Why would I ever get married? Why do I need a piece of paper to prove I love someone so much? It’s not like I believe in God” Of course my views have changed…

 

[SwizzleStick]

Don’t get me wrong, I think this will be bad. But I don’t think it will be as bad as swizzlestick says it will if for no other reason than he hasn’t been participating in their faith for years. Its not like all of those family practices will suddenly be ripped away.

I tried to avoid the use of absolutes because I don’t know the people involved, so I used words to convey that I don’t know, can’t know what will happen, words like potential, could, likely, probably, perhaps, etc., but I do know what it is to be Catholic and to be a mom and shared my thoughts and feeling based on that.

As far as not participating in the Faith for years, that is not uncommon. It has been pointed out on this thread that young people often stop practicing the Faith for years at a time and then return to it when they want to marry and start a family. So, Mom and Dad are probably hoping and praying for that news. They may be thinking that son found the girl, now it is time for other things to fall back into place. They may be completely blindsided by the news they will instead receive. Hope may be dashed and they may be more heartbroken and devastated than you have considered.

Also, I understand that religious practices are not suddenly being ripped away because son hasn’t practiced for years, but Mom and/or Dad might be mourning a bit during their own practice of the Faith, knowing their son is not practicing and doesn’t even believe in God at all once you tell them. That is what I was trying to say.

 

[SwizzleStick]

The hope that he would become actively involved once again in the faith with which he was raised when he got married and started to raise his own family will be ripped away. I think that’s the part you don’t quite understand.

Yes, exactly. Thank you. That is probably the family’s hope, that son is going to settle down and get married and get back on track. That scenario happens not at all infrequently. But, that hope will be dashed.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Here is my earlier post. I think there were others too making the point that atheist and non-practicing are two very differnt things.

There is a difference between being a non-practicing Catholic and being an atheist. I would guess that many, many Catholics were non-practicing at some point, maybe in their teens and 20’s, but then they returned to full practice of the faith after settling down, getting married, having children. That scenario is not at all uncommon, so maybe the family is thinking your fiance is in that place right now. I think they will be hurt, bewildered, devastated to learn otherwise, that your fiance does not believe at all. Damage control will likely not be possible. As a Catholic mom, I cannot even begin to imagine dealing with this situation because being Catholic is integral to every aspect of life. You indicated that your fiance’s family is devout, so surely he is aware of that?

 

[bekalc]

The hope that he would become actively involved once again in the faith with which he was raised when he got married and started to raise his own family will be ripped away. I think that’s the part you don’t quite understand.

Yes that hope will be dashed but at this point that was false hope. He’s not a Catholic who believes but is struggling just a bit with the teachings of the Church… He doesn’t believe at all. Now the family knows where he’s at so they will be able to pray harder and better. All hope isn’t gone. Even if they never believe maybe the grandchildren will because of their example. She at least cares enough about them to want to come here and talk to a priest better. At the end of the day an invalid marriage is certainly a better example than them living together for any future kids in their family extended family than shacking up… They don’t believe in Catholicism, and at this point the son isn’t in a spiritual state where he can commit to a Catholic marriage. If he were to go in front of a priest, lying the whole time and in MORTAL sin. *Would it even be valid? *

Sometimes we need to meet people where they are at, rather than where we want them to be and love them, even if we disagree. They need to pray that the son and her turn their heart to the Lord. And then hopefully when their hearts are turned to the Lord or even if one turns to the Lord they will be willing to have the Lord bless the union.

 

[PatriceA]

Yes that hope will be dashed but at this point that was false hope. He’s not a Catholic who believes but is struggling just a bit with the teachings of the Church… He doesn’t believe at all. Now the family knows where he’s at so they will be able to pray harder.

Does the family know for certain yet? I was under the impression the OP and her fiance have not told his parents yet that he is an atheist. So in their eyes, it could still be hope that is very much alive. I don’t know any parent though that still wouldn’t hope and pray after getting that type of news that their adult child would return to their Catholic faith in their lifetime. I don’t believe that hope every really goes away.

 

[bekalc]

Actually, I made it pretty clear that I don’t see him cutting them off. And as I have also made clear many times this is not their fault and I understand that they aren’t in a great position.

But I can’t speak for my fiance. I know him and I know how hurt he will be. And I do know that if they can’t accept his marriage he’s going to do what any good man would and pick his wife over his family of origin.

Eloping kind of takes the pressure off of everyone.

You seem to be happy to point out how I’m so terrible for wanting to get married, but you haven’t presented a good alternative.

]BlueEye’s didn’t you say earlier that they were thrilled when they heard the two of you were getting married? It seems to me that its not about them accepting you guys as a married couple. They are obviously willing to love and accept you. What they are going to have difficulty with his their son rejecting the Catholic faith, which is what he’s doing by getting married outside of the Church. For a Catholic parent the most important thing is to raise your child and install the faith. So they will likely feel like they failed…

Here’s the thing I actually feel like the Church refusing to recognize Catholic marriages outside of the Church as actually a mercy thing for the Church. Here’s why when your that far away from the Church, when your rejecting everything the Church taught than spirtually your in a really bad state. So how can you make any real life changes. Imagine you get someone who once again is out of the Church marries someone outside of it and the marriage goes south. Then the person later on comes back to the Church starts living life a godly way. If the first marriage was “valid” than said person would be bound to it and never able to marry again… That can be a very hard life…So the Church saying that its not valid is really a great mercy for the returning Catholic…Its just a mercy in general. Given the Church’s position on No divorce, than it makes sense and its only right that we’d have high views on what is a valid or not valid marriage…I use to think quite differently but as a former Protestant watching people I know elope because they were “in love” and wanted to have sex. And I’m not talking elope like you mention elope. I’m talking we have known each other for 6 weeks, 3 months… People who love God but are caught up in the romance and hormones… Those marriages didn’t last… I find the Church’s position on you get married, this is a life decision, you need to take classes, be in a good spiritual state to be absolutely the right one, as a means of protecting our members.

The real problem here in the Church/God’s eyes isn’t that the two of you want to make a life time committment that is a wonderful thing, and I’m glad you want to have a marriage rather than no marriage… The issue here is that your He doesn’t accept God. But God knows both of your hearts even if you don’t believe in Him… And I suspect He can appreciate the Honesty. Their’s a scripture verse about better to be hot or cold rather than lukewarm…

I wish the two of you many blessings and even though you may not think it I pray that someday you will want a Catholic marriage, not because of his parents because its something you want…

I think the two of you are going to have to except that the parents aren’t going to view it as valid, because its not blessed. But that it doesn’t mean they don’t love the two of you…The issue isn’t you personally. I think that your fiance needs to make it clear to them that he felt this way about the Church LONG before he met you.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Does the family know for certain yet? I was under the impression the OP and her fiance have not told his parents yet that he is an atheist. So in their eyes, it could still be hope that is very much alive. I don’t know any parent though that still wouldn’t hope and pray after getting that type of news that their adult child would return to their Catholic faith in their lifetime. I don’t believe that hope every really goes away.

That is my impression as well, that the parents do not yet know that the son and his fiancee are atheists. Dropping that on them, along with the news that a Catholic wedding isn’t going to happen, that a Catholic marriage and Catholic family life for son and future children isn’t forthcoming, is a lot to deal with at one time. It makes me sad to contemplate and I wish I could offer something more positive. All I can offer is prayer for BEL, her fiance and the family, but I know she doesn’t believe in it, so to her that is likely nothing. All of them have it anyway because I do believe, though I am discouraged by the situation and really feel for the family for their loss. In reality, this isn’t just a loss for the fiance’s family. It is a loss for all of them and I would guess it will affect all of them–BEL, fiance and the family–and their relationships and interactions in the future. But, still, I pray for good things for all of them. There is always hope.