EMHC's....what should the bare minimums be...for real!!

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That is not a doctrinal issue or a deposit of the faith, therefore it doesn’t fall under the protection we have been guaranteed…why can’t you understand that. It is not as if we are arguing about them revoking the “Immaculate Conception” Doctrine…which is not possible. Something like CITH vs. COTT is very possibly in need of correction
I’m saying that the OFFICIAL Church is incapable of misguiding it’s members with regards to the truth of the faith. We have Jesus’s promise on that.
 
Michael, we don’t have to await your generation as your thinking has already entered. Many priests under 50 are of your persuasion. It will be interesting to see how many more people leave or are kept from Jesus as a result of the manner in which priests conduct themselves when dealing with people. Will they conduct themselves with love and humility or take the shove it in your face, take it or leave it approach? I’ve known both. The latter turns me off. The former brings me closer.

As I said yesterday I will pray for your discernment. But maybe you will be assigned to be under the bishop or priest of whoever you are talking about in your thread. In any case God bless.
 
Again, are you implying that the current situation is broken? If it needs “fixing”, then it must be broken. Are you saying that our Pope & Bishops have led us down the wrong path? If not, then what needs fixing? If so, then what of Christ’s promise to alway to with the Church and to guide it in all truths and keep the gates of hell from over-coming it?
Pope Benedict XVI, even in his pre-papal writings, noted that there are some issues with the way the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated today. There were a lot of misinterpretations of the Second Vatican Council. Yes, there are things that need to be fixed and fixed badly. Even the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist noted that there were serious problems. Pope John Paul, in Ecclesia de Eucharistia, voiced those same concerns.

Were things done correctly, there would be no need for the Holy See to issue instruction after instruction to correct the problems. We would not need Ecclesia de Mysterio and Redemptionis Sacramentum had things been done the proper way. We would not have needed Liturgiam Authenticam to correct a badly translated version of the Roman Missal that we are currently using and whose proper translation will be released soon.
 
I am glad that I can remain anonymous, because if some of you knew my true identity, I am sure there would be attempts to prevent my acceptance to Seminary and subsequent ordination (God Willing). Who knows, I may end up in your parish one day if ordained…God willing. Love you all and God Bless, Michael
God bless you Michael. Although I’ve disagreed with you a bit here, the Church can always use more priests, especially ones who strong in their faith and faithful to the Church (You are discerning to a diocese or religious order/congregation that is faithful to the current Pope, right ;)).
Now sometimes, teachings can be harsh, but if it is the truth, you can’t back away from it out of fear of losing some people…look at the Gospels when Jesus lost followers over his teachings about The Eucharist…he didn’t fold or change because people left him…we must be prepared to defend what is right at all costs at all times…don’t you agree?
Jesus taught on the doctrine of the Eucharist, not on the practice. He left that to His Church.
 
This thread has some very contentious postings and a lot of personal remarks. I don’t want to close the thread, so please play nice everyone.
 
Japhy, that last quote certainly bears repeating. Often, EMHCs, as I have experienced it, are not given sufficient “spiritual, theological and practical preparation.” At our Cathedral, the EMHCs still approach the altar during the Sign of Peace and some of them still assist in the purification, even though the administrator and his predecessor have been told that the EMHCs should not approach until after the celebrant has communicated. At other parishes, not only do the EMHCs approach the altar at the improper time, some of them come forward and engage in a particular practice during the Pater Noster with the celebrant around the altar and one goes and retrieves the Ciborium from the Tabernacle. Retrieving the ciborium from the Tabernacle is also, unfortunately, commonplace at many of our parishes. This is a huge problem.

At my parish, my pastor has trained us to follow the GIRM. Unfortunately, when visiting priests come (who may not necessarily follow the GIRM), this causes a lot of confusion. I told one of them before Mass (when it was my turn to assist) that I cannot go to the Tabernacle to retrieve the Ciborium and replace it. That was his duty. Furthermore, I would not be approaching until after he received. He had a puzzled look, but, after I showed him in the GIRM, that cleared it up.
I agree! My Parish the EMHC’s walk up during the “Agnus Dei” go to the Tabernacle open it up, grab the Ciborium, and Stand next to the Altar, while everyone else is kneeling! This drives me crazy!!! They, the EMHC’s believe it is their right and who are you to tell them what to do! I get into debates with them. The Problem is the Priests and Bishops get away with it!!!
 
I agree! My Parish the EMHC’s walk up during the “Agnus Dei” go to the Tabernacle open it up, grab the Ciborium, and Stand next to the Altar, while everyone else is kneeling! This drives me crazy!!! They, the EMHC’s believe it is their right and who are you to tell them what to do! I get into debates with them. The Problem is the Priests and Bishops get away with it!!!
Let’s get something straight. It is the Bishop and the Priest Pastor of the Parish that is the responsible party for ANY and ALL abuses that might be perpetrated by the EMHCs. What I mean is, whatever they are doing at Mass, which is wrong, is entirely the responsibility of the Pastor, not the EMHC. EMHCs that are not complying with the diocese’s rubrics and guidelines can be either decommissioned by the Pastor, or the Bishop. There is no reason to be blaming the EMHCs. They may very well be following the practices that the Parish Pastor (or whomever) has instructed. This is especially true if you see ALL of the EMHCs following a practice that is wrong. So let’s get the real blameworthy party in our gunsights. :stretcher:
 
In reply to Malkin71 :

Why the use of the loaded word ‘grab’ the ciborium, please?

In what way do the EMHC ‘grab’?

Do you mean’ take’? Or ‘retrieve’? or ‘collect’? Any of those neutral words are accurate.

Why weaken your case by using schoolyard language? It sounds inflammatory and insulting.
 
How does one minute problem, in the whole scope of the Church, constitute as the gates of hell from over coming the Church…that quite frankly just asinine and I expected a more intellectual approach from you Sir Knight. Did the Gates of Hell prevail when we had scoundrel popes? No Cardinal Richielieu? No…my point being is that there will me some mistakes made (of course not doctrinal or anything of that magnitude) and there will be some setbacks along the way throughout Church history, but that in no way means the Church has been defeated and Christ promise was bogus…these minor problems and mistakes are all ordained by God in order to achieve a bigger and higher purpose…to get us to focus on something that may not be clear to us yet in order for the Church to thrive and be really successful in the future. Do you understand what I am trying to say?
That is not a doctrinal issue or a deposit of the faith, therefore it doesn’t fall under the protection we have been guaranteed…why can’t you understand that. It is not as if we are arguing about them revoking the “Immaculate Conception” Doctrine…which is not possible. Something like CITH vs. COTT is very possibly in need of correction
Let me put it to you in simple terms. Is communion in the hand displeasing to God? If it is and the Church is OFFICUALLY allowing it to happen, then the Church is no longer being guided by the Holy Spirit in this matter – turning Jesus into a liar. If it isn’t displeasing to God, then what is the problem? Same with EMHC. Same with everything else. If something is displeasing to God and the Church is OFFICIALLY allowing it and telling the faithful that it is okay to do it, then the Holy Spirit is no longer guiding them in these matters and Christ’s promises can no longer be trusted to be true.
 
Other than that I’m not going to get involved in this thread. Over the last year I’ve been viewing here I find that these simply turn into witch hunts against non-traditionalists, especially those who attend NO masses. Some people have a very holier-than-though attitude; things like thinking they have the ability to evaluate the piety of others.
That can go both ways though. There are some EMHC’s who have such condescending and lofty attitudes here that I feel almost non-Catholic when going to Mass because I’m not an EMHC.
 
Because it is an abuse to habitually have recourse to EMHCs, and a bishop may not advocate an abuse.
Only when there is a necessity may extraordinary ministers assist the Priest celebrant in accordance with the norm of law. (Redemptionis Sacramentum 88)

Only out of true necessity is there to be recourse to the assistance of extraordinary ministers in the celebration of the Liturgy. Such recourse is not intended for the sake of a fuller participation of the laity but rather, by its very nature, is supplementary and provisional. (Redemptionis Sacramentum 151)

Indeed, the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion may administer Communion only when the Priest and Deacon are lacking, when the Priest is prevented by weakness or advanced age or some other genuine reason, or when the number of faithful coming to Communion is so great that the very celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged. (Redemptionis Sacramentum 158)

To avoid creating confusion, certain practices are to be avoided and eliminated where such have emerged in particular Churches: … the habitual use of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion at Mass thus arbitrarily extending the concept of “a great number of the faithful”. (Ecclesiae de Mysterio Art. 8, 2)
There’s even a note about this in the Vatican-approved USCCB norms on Communion:
In practice, the need to avoid obscuring the role of the priest and the deacon as the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion by an excessive use of extraordinary minister might in some circumstances constitute a reason either for limiting the distribution of Holy Communion under both species or for using intinction instead of distributing the Precious Blood from the chalice. (Norms 24)
 
Sorry…in power was used for lack of a better word at the time…perhaps I should have said, “charged with sheperding and leading” the faithful…does that have a better ring ?😉 Now sometimes, teachings can be harsh, but if it is the truth, you can’t back away from it out of fear of losing some people…look at the Gospels when Jesus lost followers over his teachings about The Eucharist…he didn’t fold or change because people left him…we must be prepared to defend what is right at all costs at all times…don’t you agree?
Yes, I do agree…I also think it is rather exciting for lack of a better word (sorry, just woke up from an evening nap) that you are looking to become a priest. I pray for God’s best for you…we need good priests. :o
 
Sir Knight, while I admire your zeal, you sadly do not truly understand Christ’s promise to His Church and His guarantee of The Holy Spirit to protect His Church from The Gates of Hell prevailing. The Church has erred in several instances, all of which were mistakes fixed in due time. In addition, much to our benefit, all of these errors were never infallibly defined and therefore it was no problem for The Church and The Pope to later change the Church’s official stance on those particular issues. For instance, Galileo. This is what Catholic Answers has to say about that situation:

**Infallibility

Although three of the ten cardinals who judged Galileo refused to sign the verdict, his works were eventually condemned. Anti-Catholics often assert that his conviction and later rehabilitation somehow disproves the doctrine of papal infallibility, but this is not the case, for the pope never tried to make an infallible ruling concerning Galileo’s views.

The Church has never claimed ordinary tribunals, such as the one that judged Galileo, to be infallible. Church tribunals have disciplinary and juridical authority only; neither they nor their decisions are infallible.

No ecumenical council met concerning Galileo, and the pope was not at the center of the discussions, which were handled by the Holy Office. When the Holy Office finished its work, Urban VIII ratified its verdict, but did not attempt to engage infallibility.

Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful.

In Galileo’s case, the second and third conditions were not present, and possibly not even the first. Catholic theology has never claimed that a mere papal ratification of a tribunal decree is an exercise of infallibility. It is a straw man argument to represent the Catholic Church as having infallibly defined a scientific theory that turned out to be false. The strongest claim that can be made is that the Church of Galileo’s day issued a non-infallible disciplinary ruling concerning a scientist who was advocating a new and still-unproved theory and demanding that the Church change its understanding of Scripture to fit his.

It is a good thing that the Church did not rush to embrace Galileo’s views, because it turned out that his ideas were not entirely correct, either. Galileo believed that the sun was not just the fixed center of the solar system but the fixed center of the universe. We now know that the sun is not the center of the universe and that it does move—it simply orbits the center of the galaxy rather than the earth.

As more recent science has shown, both Galileo and his opponents were partly right and partly wrong. Galileo was right in asserting the mobility of the earth and wrong in asserting the immobility of the sun. His opponents were right in asserting the mobility of the sun and wrong in asserting the immobility of the earth.

Had the Catholic Church rushed to endorse Galileo’s views—and there were many in the Church who were quite favorable to them—the Church would have embraced what modern science has disproved. **

Then there was also the condemnation of St. Joan of Arc and the later reversal to canonize her as a saint…at one point in time, she was a heretic burning in hell according to The Church, and then later the Church says she is a canonized Saint, part of the Communion of Saints, and the faithful should pray for her intercessions.

We must recognize where the burden of proof lies in this matter. The Code of Canon Law provides that “No doctrine is understood to be infallibly defined unless it is clearly established as such” (CIC 749 § 3).
Let me put it to you in simple terms. Is communion in the hand displeasing to God? If it is and the Church is OFFICUALLY allowing it to happen, then the Church is no longer being guided by the Holy Spirit in this matter – turning Jesus into a liar. If it isn’t displeasing to God, then what is the problem? Same with EMHC. Same with everything else. If something is displeasing to God and the Church is OFFICIALLY allowing it and telling the faithful that it is okay to do it, then the Holy Spirit is no longer guiding them in these matters and Christ’s promises can no longer be trusted to be true.
 
More words from Jimmy Akin regarding infallibility:

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109bt.asp

We must look also at the conditions regarding papal infallibility. According to Vatican I, which defined the doctrine, “The Roman pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra . . . possesses through the divine assistance promised to him in the person of blessed Peter, the infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed in defining the doctrine concerning faith or morals” (Pastor Aeternus 4). The passage in the ellipsis explains that the pope speaks ex cathedra “when, acting in the office of shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the universal Church.”

The key word is “defines.” Defining something is not the same as stating, teaching, declaring, condemning, or what have you. The meaning of this term is explained in a relatio on Pastor Aeternus 4.

On July 16, 1870, Vincent Gasser, the relator for Pastor Aeternus 4, gave a relatio that explained “the word ‘defines’ signifies that the pope directly and conclusively pronounces his sentence about a doctrine which concerns matters of faith or morals and does so in such a way that each one of the faithful can be certain of the mind of the Apostolic See, of the mind of the Roman Pontiff; in such a way, indeed, that he or she knows for certain that such and such a doctrine is held to be heretical, proximate to heresy, certain or erroneous, etc., by the Roman Pontiff”

This means that, in order for him to define a doctrine to be held by the universal Church, the pope must express himself in such a way that the faithful can know with certitude that he holds a particular proposition to have a particular doctrinal note (de fide, certain, false, proximate to heresy, heretical, et cetera). The faithful are then required to regard it likewise. If the faithful cannot know from what the pope says that a particular proposition is to be regarded in a particular way, then the pope has not defined the matter for the universal Church and thus has not spoken infallibly.

During the course of Church history, there have been many occasions where a person has committed not just a single heresy but a whole raft of theological errors. In such cases, the Church has sometimes responded by censuring a list of propositions found in the person’s writings. Sometimes this is done by condemning the propositionsone by one, “the proper qualifications being attached to each individually (in individuo). [However,] in the case of . . . Luther . . . to a whole series of propositions a whole series of censures was attached generally (in globo). . . . To each of the propositions thus condemned apply one, or several, or all of the censures employed—the task of fitting each censure to each propositions being left to theologians” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1907 ed., s.v. “Theological Censures”).

When one looks at the Latin text of the sentence, this ambiguity is even more obvious. The various censures the pope names—from “heretical” to “offensive to pious ears”—are all joined by the conjunction aut. In ecclesiastical Latin the word aut tends to have the sense of an exclusive “or”—i.e., it’s this or that, not both. This makes it a slam-dunk that one cannot determine the kind of censure being applied to the individual propositions.

One cannot even infer that the pontiff’s mind was that all of the propositions were false. The censures “heretical” and “false” both imply falsity, but “scandalous,” “offensive to pious ears,” and “seductive of simple minds” do not.

Heresy is a term reserved for falsehoods that contradict points that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith. The more general term false is used to refer to erroneous propositions more generally (i.e., ones that do not have to be believed with divine and Catholic faith). But the next three named censures do not imply error. In fact, they may even presuppose the truth of a position.

Scandalous means “likely to cause scandal,” but that does not automatically mean false. Sometimes things that are true lead to scandals. Offensive to pious ears means “phrased in an offensive manner” or “phrased in a manner repugnant to Catholic sensibilities.” But again, that doesn’t automatically mean false. (In fact, this censure tends to be applied to propositions that are basically true but badly expressed.) Seductive of simple minds means “likely to be understood in a way that would lead the uneducated or inattentive to believe an error.” This also does not mean automatically false.

One can speculate which censure might be applied to the proposition that using the death penalty for heresy is contrary to the will of the Spirit (a view Luther himself later repudiated). It seems to me that this proposition in that age would have been scandalous. Many people would have pointed to the examples in Scripture cited above and would have been scandalized by the proposition that it is never God’s will to use capital punishment for doctrinal matters.

However, we cannot infer from the pope’s statement that the proposition is anything more than scandalous. It could also be deserving of one or more of the other censures, but we can’t infer from what the pope said if that were true or which would be the case. Indeed, from what the pope said alone we can’t be sure that scandalous is what was in mind for that proposition.

Because we can’t know that, Exsurge Domine does not infallibly define the theological status of this proposition or the others that it treats, meaning that it cannot be used to attack the doctrine of papal infallibility. One trying to do so needs to better understand papal infallibility, learn to parse ecclesiastical documents more carefully, or become aware of the meaning of theological censures.
 
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