End of Altar Girls?

[Franciscum]

katherine2:

1. You need to be more than just a male to be a candidate for ordination. By your book, people with other exclusions such as a mental disability should not be servers either.
2. Of course, you still have not offered any evidence as to once all such vocation candidates have been accomodated, no one else can join them.

1.) No kidding. I don’t think it would be productive for a 75 year old man to serve as there is little (or no) chance of him becoming a deacon either.

2.) ALL positions should be filled by males who might just possibly have a vocation to the priesthood or diaconate. You act as if there is an unlimited number of altar server positions at each Mass – there isn’t.

 

[Franciscum]

Church Militant:

I disagree about this issue…it’s a NON issue. Rome reconsidered and changed it. quit

The level of anxiety shown by some such as yourself shows quite clearly how some are afraid the Vatican will roll-back allowing females to be altar boys.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

First of all Francis and Fix- HOW DARE YOU BRING UP THIS TOPIC!
This topic is, like you guys have said, one of the roads leading to the decline of real priests and the sacredness of the Altar/Tabernacle area. Most of the people who are for the practice are unaware what they are really saying. They see this as us against them thing, and as a struggle for equality where none is supposed to exist. they are not trying to harm the Church. the problem is that people are so used to doing away with traditional positions with such little resistance that by the time people like us say something we are tarred and feathered. as people have said on this thread there are pushes for “equality” that are really created to divide and conquer.
there are so many ways to get boys in who are supposedly uninterested. for me when i went to a Catholic school, if you wanted to get out of class you could miss an hour in the morning if you were an altar boy. now this seems wrong at first, but over time it made me grow spiritually/mentally and after a while i held the utmost respect for that position. it wasnt just me, there were others, some class clowns that i knew who were changed by serving. Now i look and its as if there has to be a girl or the mass cannot begin.
This push is happening on all fronts.
One good example is women in sports. If they want to have a WNBA thats fine, they have the money and power, but if you look the areas are barely 1/4 full during the games. Nobody wants to watch. I see my younger brothers at soccer, and there are just as many girls out there as guys. playing soccer is no big deal, but when they allow/push the girls to play with the boys the girls get hurt more easily and as a result the game is turned into a sissy fest with the competitive fire snuffed out. in some games they dont even keep score so the losing team wont “feel bad”.
as a result the guys lose the manly instincs and are more concerned with petting the kitty. they act more and more like women in thought and action. at the same time the girls go out on the baseball, soccer, track, etc fields and start acting like macho men, its gross…smacking around eachother, cussing at eachother, bloody noses, bruises, cat fights, etc. this is real, this isnt local it is all around. also look on monday night football, NBA, etc there are these glossied up women on the field around full grown men wanting to have an “interview” baiting them with worthless and condemning questions. the guys dont want to see half revealing women talking to them when they are trying to concentrate. there is a constant debate as to why the media women cant go into the male locker rooms and how it is discrimination!

now i know that most of the people in here dont go as far as the sports, but they are planing seeds that will/are growing out of control. look at all those wome running for political offices, they dress like men, have inch long hair, no need for makeup, barking/grumpy like old geezers. gross.

Francis and Fix I would like to extend an E-handshake. this is a tough battle, i dont know if it can be won.

 

[Podo2004]

Franciscum:

I would also suggest that 8 years old is too young. I know very few altar servers who have the concentration and knowlege of the Mass at that age to be excellent altar servers.

I’m gonna guess that grade 7 to graduation from college would be close to optimal (longer for those who might become deacons), but that’s just a guess.

My brother(who is 7 years old) serves and does a great job,better than some of the teens. As for females, yes it helps as far as training goes for priesthood(Boys), but girls shouldn’t be denied the honor of serving our Lord, even if they can’t be priests.
And besides many boys that i saw serving (young adults now) didn’t persue studying to become priests.And some of the girls who serve at my parish do an excellent job…
Podo

 

[philipmarus]

Franciscum, I agree with you 100%. It is be advanced by people who support Women’s ordination. When my Dad was alive (Deceased in 2002) and taught RCIA he encountered this very thing in his Parish. He co-taught RCIA in the 1980s with a lady who taken some Theology classes and was only waiting to become a priest when the Church got a new Pope. Well, I guess she’s still waiting.The same people in his Parish wanting Women’s ordination were always pushing for Altar girls to the exlusion of Altar boys in practice. Thats one reason my Dad encouraged my Younger brother to be an Altar boy.

 

[Catholic2003]

Franciscum:

The level of anxiety shown by some such as yourself shows quite clearly how some are afraid the Vatican will roll-back allowing females to be altar boys.

Well, if this “roll-back” doesn’t happen by 2013, then female altar servers will attain the status of custom as defined by canon law. I hope that doesn’t make you too anxious.

 

[Kielbasi]

Since women and girls are not allowed to become priests or deacons at the current point in time, allowing them to serve mass at least gives them some role.

I don’t think its a bad idea, the faithful certainly like it.

Further , the recent sex scandals regarding altar boys makes a lot of parents a little skittish about their sons persuing altar service. Particularly as many parents just don’t have the time to attend all of the altar training sessions with their boys.

 

[rayne89]

Franciscum:

Does your parish have a website? Mine routinely seats 1200 for Mass and we have 2 servers. 20? hmmm…

NB: It sounds as if your older servers wear the cassock/surplice combo while your younger servers wear albs. The “crucifix on a pole” is the processional cross. The “oil burning candles” are processional torches. The “brass plates” are communion patens. The white gloves sound like an unfortunate Anglican addition.

Thanks for the proper terms . I’m a product of the 70’s/80’s CCD classes.

Here’s the web site.
saintcyrils.org/index.htm

 

[jimmy]

Franciscum:

I would also suggest that 8 years old is too young. I know very few altar servers who have the concentration and knowlege of the Mass at that age to be excellent altar servers.

I’m gonna guess that grade 7 to graduation from college would be close to optimal (longer for those who might become deacons), but that’s just a guess.

Although that would be ideal, I do not think it is possible to both make it only available to boys and to make the age requirement seventh grade. There would be no where near enough altar servers.

I do agree that they should return it to being only boys. Like you said, it should foster an interest in the preisthood.

 

[Pisio]

I never really thought much about this subject until a few years ago. Since I reflected on it in this manner, I have never been able to reconcile my reflection with the Church practice of allowing girls to serve on the altar.

I am sorry in advance if this offends anyone, but here is a brief summary:

If the Eucharist is truly the Source and Summit of the Christian Faith that means it is essentially Life to the Christian Faithful. This “Life” then is brought about in the sanctuary of the Church.

The Church is often referred to as “Mother”. Mothers with the aid of fathers bring forth Life from their wombs.

This being said you can equate the sanctuary of the Church to the womb of a woman. Two women can not create life together no matter how hard they try. When they try it is considered the sin of lesbianism.

Isn’t then having women assist in the sanctuary spiritual lesbianism?

While I accept the authority of the Church in regards to female altar severs, I can not agree with the practice:nope: . I pray that it will soon come to an end.

 

[katolik]

Podo2004:

My brother(who is 7 years old) serves and does a great job,better than some of the teens. As for females, yes it helps as far as training goes for priesthood(Boys), but girls shouldn’t be denied the honor of serving our Lord, even if they can’t be priests.
And besides many boys that i saw serving (young adults now) didn’t persue studying to become priests.And some of the girls who serve at my parish do an excellent job…
Podo

It is most laudable in a married woman to be devout, but she must never forget that she is a housewife and sometimes she must leave God at the altar to find Him in her housekeeping" St.Frances of Rome

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

There were scholarly articles by doctors of canon law that were published in 1984. By the time the 1985 Canon Law Society of America Commentary was published, canon lawyers were nearly unanimous on the issue.

Are they the magisterium now? I contend the practice started as disobedient. Years later the proper authorities interpreted the canon to allow female servers. Note it was not necessarily encouraged, only not prohibited.

 

[fix]

1. My parish only commence once it was approved. SO why are you trying to impose your opinions on everyone.

I can’t impose anything. It is the liberals who impose.

When the lawmaker and the law interpreter doesn’t act on a complaintant’s report you might want to consider what is being said. Give it a rest.

Or we may want to consider how faithful those in charge actually are. Things are changing, not fast, but they are changing. The reform of the reform is coming. 1968 is long gone.

 

[fix]

katherine2:

It has to do with the claim only those who mightbe candidates for the priesthood should be allowed to be altar servers.

Are you saying there are no limits on who may serve? There is no right to serve.

 

[katherine2]

1.) No kidding. I don’t think it would be productive for a 75 year old man to serve as there is little (or no) chance of him becoming a deacon either.

And I take it you want my parish to be told the young mentally disabled boy who now does a wonderful job as an altar server in my private opinion should be told that he can no longer do so by orders of the Church.

) ALL positions should be filled by males who might just possibly have a vocation to the priesthood or diaconate. You act as if there is an unlimited number of altar server positions at each Mass – there isn’t.

How nice of you to speak for every parish in the Catholic world.

 

[fix]

katherine2:

I guess the more learned and perceptive people knew.

You mean the rebellious ones? I gave an example before of college students walking across a lawn and destroying the grass and making a path becuase they wanted to do as they wish. Instead of correcting the students, the college paved over the lawn and made a path. Is it the end of the world, no, but it shows disobedience works many times. The proper authorities give in. The left knows this well and uses it to their advantage.

The other students who obeyed and used the proper sidewalk just watched and accepted the injustices as good Catholics often are called to do.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I take seriously Franciscum’s assertion that serving at the altar can be a vehicle for a boy moving toward a call to the priesthood. I also, however, can see what Katherine means about the young man with a diminished mental capacity being allowed to serve (I’m certain he touches the very depths of Jesus’ Heart in his service). One thing I think we should remember when we discuss “the call” to the priesthood: it’s God who does the calling. He will make his call heard, whether a boy is an altar server or not. I think perhaps we forget that. This argument, however, is breaking down into “us” and “them” thing. We’re all Catholics. Fix, when you say the “reform of the reform” is coming, I welcome that. The Church will be in a constant state of reformation until Our Lord comes. It is best than none of us be too triumphalistic about it…the reform may not come down the way we wish!!!

 

[katherine2]

Pisio:

Isn’t then having women assist in the sanctuary spiritual lesbianism?

Yeah, right.

The problem with you conservatives is that your are not conservative. You keep making up new understandings of the the liturgy.

Not too long ago, conservatives objected to the Dialogue Mass because the altar boy was representing the CONGREGATION.

 

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

I take seriously Franciscum’s assertion that serving at the altar can be a vehicle for a boy moving toward a call to the priesthood. I also, however, can see what Katherine means about the young man with a diminished mental capacity being allowed to serve (I’m certain he touches the very depths of Jesus’ Heart in his service). One thing I think we should remember when we discuss “the call” to the priesthood: it’s God who does the calling. He will make his call heard, whether a boy is an altar server or not. I think perhaps we forget that. This argument, however, is breaking down into “us” and “them” thing. We’re all Catholics. Fix, when you say the “reform of the reform” is coming, I welcome that. The Church will be in a constant state of reformation until Our Lord comes. It is best than none of us be too triumphalistic about it…the reform may not come down the way we wish!!!

The reform will be authentic reform. It is not my private wishes that matter, but that I try to think with the mind of the Church. Certainly the past 40 or so years have been problematic to say the least. I was not being triumphalistic. I was telling katherine that the days of the heterodox left being in positions of authority in large numbers is coming to an end.

 

[space_ghost]

Franciscum:

As I said in my opening posts, many will offer excuses, although they wone’t be valid excuses. You certainly have not shown why female altar servers should be employed. But you have shown some anxiety here as the person in charge of servers at your parish.

The “positive push” is fostering priestly vocations, which is extremely important. JPII made other comments about altar servers that you should take the time to read…

I don’t see the excuse you mention… the church approves the use of female servers as well as male. Rome has approved it… There will always be those that have issues with change… The difference lies in the ability to change, adapt, roll with the wave as it were… I have no problem with male only servers if Rome decides to decree that… The Priest shortage was long into happening way before little girls were allowed to serve…

I think there might be other issues here, just under the surface of your concern… i will watch and see…