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Catholic2003
Guest
Canon lawyers are authorized by the Church to interpret and apply canon law. That is why they must go to a school that is accredited by the Vatican.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Just as the rebellious priests who refused to use altar girls in direct violation of their vow of obedience to their bishop were rewarded when the Congregation for Divine Worship caved in and legitimized their rebellious behavior in 2001. It seems the right is also fairly adept at using disobedience to their advantage.
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fix
Guest
That’s nice, now why did the Vatican have to weigh in and finally give the interpretation. Apparently, everyone did not agree.
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fix
Guest
False argument. The Church has said every priest has the right to decide. The Church also says no one has a right to serve.
The orthodox has had small progress against the radical heterodox who think they own the mass and the faith.
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Catholic2003
Guest
Well, the few who did not agree were proven wrong by the Vatican’s authentic interpretation of 1992.
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fix
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Only shows the power struggle within the Church.
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fix
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I am sure female servers were being used without any knowledge from a few canon lawyers. They back doored it in.
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Catholic2003
Guest
The Church has said that female altar servers are allowed. I guess this makes your argument false as well. You can’t have it both ways.
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fix
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I was quoting Church documents. Each priest can say yes or no to female servers and no lay person has any right to serve.
Your argument about the right being disobedient as the left can have some truth. When Church authorities compromise, or fail to do their jobs, then undisciplined heterodoxy can be seen a ligitimate.
That is why I pray and hope the Vatican starts cracking down on dissent and liturgical abuse.
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kmktexas
Guest
One thing is pretty clear. The Church is not encouraging Altar Girls, they are tolerating them.
From Redemtionis Sacramentum
Our parish encourages boys and Father personally invites (commands) ones he sees are attentive and reverent at Mass. Girls are allowed to sign up too (we do not have a limited number of spaces). It is usually the Mom who signs them up. Girls are not allowed to serve as the MC (head server).
From Redemtionis Sacramentum
Altar boys are laudable, associations should be formed for them (the boys) and greater pastoral care should be provided for them (the boys). Girls are also allowed. When you read this, it seems like the girls were put in as an afterthought. The discretion of the Bishop is important. There is at least one Bishop in the US who doesn’t allow girls. There are a lot of priests who only allow boys to serve at their Masses, as is there right. Part of the “established norms” has to be previous documents that say that girls should not be allowed if it keeps boys from serving. What is missing is some clarification as to how to determine if the boys are being kept from serving. If there are willing boys but no space because of the number of girls, then yes, they are being kept away. If they just don’t want to serve with girls, that’s more subjective.
Our parish encourages boys and Father personally invites (commands) ones he sees are attentive and reverent at Mass. Girls are allowed to sign up too (we do not have a limited number of spaces). It is usually the Mom who signs them up. Girls are not allowed to serve as the MC (head server).
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
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fix
Guest
Thanks for putting things in proper perspective. I have said in many posts that there are bigger issues, but some defend female servers as some right and go as far as claiming it is somehow better now than before. IMO, two things are at play. First is a radical liberal agenda, the second is that most do not think about it deeply and simply go with the flow and accept secular wisdom.
Girls are allowed to serve, for now, by the Church but it was started in an underhanded way and like so many abuses it becomes “mainstream”. The agenda rolls on.
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fix
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fix:
QUOTE]
This is an inaccurate and inflammatory use of the terms “orthodox” and “heterodox.” “Orthodox” has nothing to do with discipline, which is what altar girls would fall under. “Orthodox” has to do with faith and morals. They could have altar girls exclusively, but if they taught nothing contrary to the magisterium, they’re still orthodox. This is precisely what is wounding to the Body of Christ. There is a difference between “orthodox” and “conservative.”
Those that pushed in female servers had a heterodox agenda. Most today accept it as ordained by the Vatican. They are wrong. It was pushed by hetrodox folks and snuck in under the radar.
It is a discipline, but disciplines must be obeyed, not changed at will.
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maklavan
Guest
There is nothing to prevent an older person being an altar SERVER. i saw a gentleman of 84 serving at Mass last Sunday because not one of the altar BOYS turned up!
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katherine2
Guest
Its not missing. It is the judgement of the pastor.
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fix
Guest
I do not think that was the point. I think it is more general which is what the thread is about. Are less boys interested in serving because it has become a female dominated position?
We are, after all, talking of young boys and girls. The maturation process should be taken into account.
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katherine2
Guest
The fact that you admit that is an open question just further confirms the good judgement of the Church in leaving this at the local commmunity rather than a universal rule.
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Bobby_Jim
Guest
It would be enlightening to know:
My intuition is that, these days, more men are discerning their call to the priesthood a little later, often in their 20s or early 30s. These tend to be the young men who stay involved in church not only through their teenage years (when they may or may not have been altar servers), but also through college and young adulthood. So many kids who were very active in their parish when under the guidance of Mom & Dad go away to school, and drop out of sight. Others don’t - they stay active, and grow in their faith far beyond what they had. I think the experience of taking responsibility for ones’ own faith, upon being independent from Mom & Dad, has a much more profound influence on young men than what one did as a pre-teen.
These days kids are bombarded from the earliest age with the message that the only option for life is as part of a couple (not necessarily married, these days). The idea that someone could remain single and celibate is totally contrary to almost everything that kids hear. I’m guessing that subject doesn’t even come up so much when kids are being trained by Father to be altar boys. It often takes young men a few years beyond high school, beyond the years of intense pressure to conform, to realize that, for them, a lifetime of celibacy and material poverty is an option. Those, to me, seem like the bigger obstacles to young men these days than whether they had the opportunity to serve at Mass as youths, or whether the presence of girls made the whole thing seem icky and gross.
- Percentage of current priests who served as altar boys when younger, and
- Percentage of altar boys who went on to become priests.
My intuition is that, these days, more men are discerning their call to the priesthood a little later, often in their 20s or early 30s. These tend to be the young men who stay involved in church not only through their teenage years (when they may or may not have been altar servers), but also through college and young adulthood. So many kids who were very active in their parish when under the guidance of Mom & Dad go away to school, and drop out of sight. Others don’t - they stay active, and grow in their faith far beyond what they had. I think the experience of taking responsibility for ones’ own faith, upon being independent from Mom & Dad, has a much more profound influence on young men than what one did as a pre-teen.
These days kids are bombarded from the earliest age with the message that the only option for life is as part of a couple (not necessarily married, these days). The idea that someone could remain single and celibate is totally contrary to almost everything that kids hear. I’m guessing that subject doesn’t even come up so much when kids are being trained by Father to be altar boys. It often takes young men a few years beyond high school, beyond the years of intense pressure to conform, to realize that, for them, a lifetime of celibacy and material poverty is an option. Those, to me, seem like the bigger obstacles to young men these days than whether they had the opportunity to serve at Mass as youths, or whether the presence of girls made the whole thing seem icky and gross.
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fix
Guest
Well, I know of no specific studies on the topic.
Mass attendence is down, catechesis is less than poor, there has been a homosexual abuse crisis. I guess your right, the local ordinaries have done a smashing job. I would think female servers, guitars and hand holding should really usher in a Catholic reformation. Then, again, it has not so far. It is the “conservative” or orthodox dioceses that see a growth in vocations.
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Franciscum
Guest
Because serving at the altar fosters vocations to the priesthood and diaconate, all altar server positions should go to males who might just possibly have such a vocation.
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