End of my rope--if the Church is no better than secular institutions then why bother?

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What does a nihil (not nil) obstat have to do with the sex abuse scandal?
 
The Holy Spirit does not “protect” the Church. It offers its guidance. Human beings have the complete freedom to receive or reject that advice. Not even all of the Popes have been made saints. A few were even thoroughly corrupt.
 
Zurf said:
How can the church be protected from errors in the case of “faith and morals ” if the cover-ups are tolerated and accepted by the Holy Spirit?
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It is made abundantly clear throughout the New Testament that there were numerous behavioral problems in the Church from the beginning. Most of the New Testament wouldn’t even exist if that weren’t the case, and Revelation 2-3 puts into perspective just how widespread problems were. Even Peter’s problems didn’t end with denying Christ, as Paul makes clear in Galatians. So I’m honestly not sure where you’re getting the idea that the Church and her leaders would always be well-behaved, because it’s been clear from the beginning that that wasn’t going to be the case.

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide us in all truth. Truth isn’t invalidated because people don’t act according to it. If it were, parts of science would cease to exist once you start considering anti-vaxxers or climate-change-deniers.
Toomanycats said:
if the Holy Spirit protects the Pope from teaching error on faith and morals (despite free will), why can’t the Holy Spirit protect the Church’s leaders from committing horrors like this?
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As far as I’m aware, Jesus only guaranteed the former, and as already noted, Scripture itself indicates that the latter was never guaranteed.

As for why, it’s hard to say. It’s possible that it’s simply that the promulgation of error on a Church-wide scale is considerably worse than having individual members who commit grave evil. If the Church started professing error, that indicates that the Church is herself no longer holy. In contrast, the bad members are more like a diseased growth - unpleasant and should be removed, but ultimately the body itself remains holy.

To use the film Calvary as an example, it shows that for all the personal faults of themselves and the graver faults of their peers, priests can still be faithful ministers of the Gospel. In contrast, if all of them started teaching heresy, they cease to be faithful ministers.
 
While standing east of the TIber and watching the scandal implosions I take no pleasure in the Roman Catholic embarrassments. First off these atrocities are a direct offence towards God and the displeasure of our supreme authority is something anyone should fear. This is also in direct violation of almost any governmental authority to whom we are subject by scripture Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

But finally I am too preoccupied contesting with my fellows (protestants) over many of these same issues. I must leave you all with mutual admonishments: draw close to our savior Jesus Christ, never compromise in His holy word, look to Jesus for the wisdom to resolve outrageous matters of sin (hint, sometimes we all need to take direct action).
 
From what Church sources do you receive information on the sex scandals.?. (1 Cor 6,6)
 
jtavington said:
The scandals of the last few months have finally taken their toll and I’m at a breaking point. I’ve heard again and again that priests commit child sexual abuse at a rate comparable or slightly lower than other organizations. That lots of organizations have had massive coverups. This is true. But if the Body of Christ is no better than the secular world, then how do we know that it is the Body of Christ? At least when I was a Protestant, I could claim that these monsters were not really Christians. I’ve never really had an emotional connection to my faith–I believe in Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular like I believe in the law of gravity so even my priest’s exhortation’s to take comfort in the Eucharist and my own prayers for faith seem to do nothing and I had no idea what to do now. Please help me.
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My response copied from another post:

A poster who indicated he did not agree with a post of mine that the problem is not current as to actual abuse - current meaning from 2002 onward from the Dallas Conference. His Statement: " I do not share your confidence in the bishops. I think the actions that were publicized that could have been effective have not been fully implemented."

MY RESPONSE: Then please refute my words with facts from any credible source on how many cases of physical sexual abuse have occurred in the United States Catholic dioceses that have been covered up since 2002. I am willing to accept your skepticism if you can back it up with facts. I want to know how many minors have been abused by priests since 2002 and how many bishops there are covering it up. Please FACTS, not PERSONAL OPINIONS!

What are the facts, not the Washington Post, Boston Globe, New York Times, Los Angeles Times stories on the current crisis and their editorial opinions. How much abuse is occurring RIGHT NOW?
 
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I wouldn’t trust those magazines on anything Catholic. Most of it is Anti-Catholic in one way or another.
 
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If the Catholic Church was not true, the devil would not bother. Adam fell and so did a lot of priest for the lies of the devil. The gates of hell will not prevail. However, things will get worse before they get better. Many will leave like they did when Christ explained the Eucharist. The church will suffer financially but will survive. Double down on your prayer life and we will pull through. 🙏
 
The golden rule. Just do it. Whether from a secular standpoint or religious, Do Good.
 
jtavington said:
The scandals of the last few months have finally taken their toll and I’m at a breaking point. I’ve heard again and again that priests commit child sexual abuse at a rate comparable or slightly lower than other organizations. That lots of organizations have had massive coverups. This is true. But if the Body of Christ is no better than the secular world, then how do we know that it is the Body of Christ? At least when I was a Protestant, I could claim that these monsters were not really Christians. I’ve never really had an emotional connection to my faith–I believe in Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular like I believe in the law of gravity so even my priest’s exhortation’s to take comfort in the Eucharist and my own prayers for faith seem to do nothing and I had no idea what to do now. Please help me.
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It’s all bugging me too, more than before. But the Church is all about our relationship with God first of all. People will let us down. And the reason the Church remains important is, simply, this: She claims to know that love and goodness and truth and order are foundational to this universe, messed up as this world often is; God exists and God is love. That simple message is the most important truth that this world has, little understood and appreciated as it is. But all human hope depends on it.
 
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I agree with you. The scandal was dampening to the spirit. Why did our priests commit those sins and thus the scandal, and why did the Church cover them up?

It certainly affects our perception of the clergy, unfair it may be.
 
Ah—got it. That doesn’t exactly apply to news stories @StarMapp.
 
You don’t plow up the whole garden because of a few weeds.
 
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jtavington said:
But if the Body of Christ is no better than the secular world, then how do we know that it is the Body of Christ?
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It was the Body of Christ even though Peter denied it; even though Judas betrayed it; even though Ananias and Sapphira cheated it; even though the Lapsi renounced it.

It’s not that the Body of Christ is “better” than anyone else – or that it’s ever been ‘better’. The way to identify the Body of Christ is by noticing who it is in whom they believe; and who it is in whom they’re attempting to follow. That’s the difference… and that doesn’t change, even in the face of scandals.
 
Because I am not giving up on education because teachers abuse students and it gets covered up. I am not giving up on sports because coaches abuse athletes and it gets covered up. I am not giving up on entertainment because producers and directors abuse actors and it gets covered up. In all these, the truth will eventually come out. The number of good people in the church, sports, entertainment and education are much more than the bad apples. The truth will come out. It is up to us to hold bishops, cardinals and yes, even the pope to accountability. St. Catherine of Siena did. We need a new Catherine right now.
 
The Church is made up of people with free will, no different than any secular organization. It’s made up of sinners, no different than any other organization. What sets us apart isn’t the impeccability of one billion Catholics, since God doesn’t rob us of our will when we come to belief, but the promise which He gave to it that it would never fall. Though the Roman empire faded away, our faith has not- not by the mistakes or crimes of anyone within or without it, to harm it or to serve themselves. We still stand because Jesus is with us, and He won’t abandon us because we are sometimes victimized by those who were appointed to shepherd us.
 
From today’s reading…

"Accordingly, we ourselves boast of you in the churches of God
regarding your endurance and faith in all your persecutions
and the afflictions you endure."

Who ever said that being a disciple of Christ was for the faint of heart?

I pray that those who are thinking of abandoning the Church over the actions of some stupid men reconsider their reasoning for doing so.
And if they leave still then it just goes to show.
 
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