End of my rope--if the Church is no better than secular institutions then why bother?

[StarMapp]

if the cover-ups are tolerated and accepted by the Holy Spirit?

Because it is the Holy Spirit that works through them. A person may have
only completed a portion of a greater plan of the Holy Spirit, regardless of the failures and successes that have so far come to pass in his life. We, the lay community, may be critiquing and stopping(his career perhaps) one event when we are to remain silent. The Holy Spirit through scripture has already told us how and when we should act in such matters. The Church tells us that we are to keep such matters within the sphere of the Church. 1 Cor 6,6. But today we ignore all that and relish news from non Catholics, and go so far as to wave this news in the faces of our parish priests. These matters are to be discussed by our Bishops and we are to accept the decisions. One such paper was the Essenstial Norms still on the web I believe, and more recent the papers of the Conference of Bishops, either US or Canada. But does this information give us permission to grandstand and radio transmit and seek a podium to discourage others(from the Holy Spirit’s final plan) to leave the Church? I think not.

As to our own duties, many of these cases have been tried and are over. Even the secular world is to act accordingly. Remember that 50 billion people can be wrong. Many cases of priests have a good ending, and we discover they are absolved and they have gone to higher responsibilities. (Recall Saul’s conversion and Christ’s selection).

Our attitude to those who are absolved is …“I don’t remember”. These words of Christ on his visit to St. Theresa when she asked he prove he really is Christ. She had asked him what her last confession was.

The secular world itself, under the approved authority of God, is mandated to keep the peace and establish a judicial system. No small feat for sure in this chaotic world of the prince. But always remember that the plan was that it is also mandated to follow direction and principles of the True Church.

 

[jtavington]

Yeah. That’s why I’m so adrift. Every religion makes truth claims. Every one produces people of heroic virtue and monsters. If our fruits are the same as the UUs why am I spending my afternoon at Mass. How do I know any of this is true?

 

[CelticWarlord]

It is, indeed, disconcerting and depressing. But the comments to your post have been very good, some outstanding, and I hope you will take the time to read each of them. God Bless.

 

[Gorgias]

If it is not better then the expression of “Body of Christ” is just another em

Gorgias:

It’s not that the Body of Christ is “better” than anyone else – or that it’s ever been ‘better’.

If it is not better then the expression of “Body of Christ” is just another empty label.

That’s simply not true. It’s a label that designates who we are attempting to be – humans who, although flawed and sinful, aspire to follow Christ.

That is why the transgressions of the members of some secular institutions (teachers, etc…) do not get the same admonishment as the church does.

Right.

The PA Grand Jury report isn’t an admonishment; it’s applause for a job well done.
The whole “Spotlight” situation in Boston (and the subsequent movie treatment of it) isn’t admonishment, it’s the media’s way of telling us that they appreciate the Church’s efforts!

C’mon. Are you seriously suggesting that more has been done to stem abuse in schools, or Boy Scouts, or anywhere, as compared to what the Church has done in the past 16 years?

None of the other institutions dare to CLAIM divinely established moral superiority or guidance.

That only extends to the founder… who happens to be God. The rest of us? Humans. Able to sin.

But claims are dime a dozen. And THAT is the problem!

Yes. Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Gorgias]

Yeah. That’s why I’m so adrift. Every religion makes truth claims. Every one produces people of heroic virtue and monsters. If our fruits are the same as the UUs why am I spending my afternoon at Mass.

Yep. You have to answer that one in your own heart.

However, short of a claim that God is directly granting superhuman powers to his favorite denomination, what would “the one true religion” look like to you? What would you expect to see? What would distinguish them from the rest of us?

(And, if there’s nothing that distinguishes externally… then why the angst? This would only confirm that people are people, trying their best, and Catholics fit in that category too…)

 

[GUYMAN]

Church leaders need to stop talking about protecting the “little ones” . Not that protecting children isn’t important, but its been addressed for years now. The PA abuse report was about the abuse or harassment of young men - seminarians, priests, and others. Young men - not little kids. The Church has a cancer of actively homosexual clergy. They need to face up to it and address it.

 

[ShastaRose]

Why is this being raked up again now? This is 19-year-old “news.” I think the leftists are at it again, attacking anything religious. The Catholic schools have a long record of turning out educated graduates. Their SATs are always way above the average for public shcools. And those who are trying to turn this country into a socialist one can’t stand the good records of the Catholic schools. And as long as there are Catholic schools and other private schools, many parents will want to keep their kids out of the govt. run schools, and their children will excel in school. Those who want everybody to attend the same govt. schools hate this. So, I think this is another attack on the Catholic church, which will have the effect of bleeding the parishes of more money, and maybe some of the Catholic schools will be forced to close.

The leftists want everybody to have to attend the govt. schools, which have been dummied down so that nobody can out-shine the slow learners and the non-learners. (That way, nobody has to explain why it is that some people are slow learners or non-learners.)

We fight this by supporting our local churches, not by letting Godless people name the issues and call the tunes. Don’t we love our churches and our priests? Well, it’s time to step up, and to not listen to the nay-sayers.

 

[PureKathleen46]

Are you kidding?

 

[Rahn]

I think a lot of us are feeling that way. I saw a tweet by Patricia Heaton the other day that broke my heart. (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Our priest emphasized the quote from Peter in the gospel as well on Sunday, and I think it’s a bit rich, just like the “percentages” argument that I used to quote in defence of clerical abuse.

I’m hanging on because I believe in Jesus. Not in failing man, but in Jesus. But, man, I want to see some overturning of tables in His house!

 

[JanetF]

The songs we sang yesterday at mass were soooo appropriate:

Opening: Christ is Risen by Matt Maher

Offertory: Lead Me to the Cross by Brooke Fraser
Communion: Taste and See and Ubi Caritas
and then the closing “Hold us Together” by Maher, Wilson.
If you are not familiar, it goes…
"(And) love will hold us together, make us a shelter to weather the storm
and I’ll be my broher’s keeper
So the whole world will know that we’re not alone

It’s waiting for you knocking at your door
In the moment of truth when your heart hits the floor, and you’re on your knees"

There are a lot of allegations going around right now. I think we have to focus on a few things:

1. the allegations of abuse are not new and since 2002 the Church has made changes that are working
2. the allegations that have come out recently about McCarrick, Wuerl, and even the Pope need to be investigated and if found credible need to be dealt with, but until credibility is established, we are best off waiting and praying.
3. The Church is still the truth, it’s just made up of a LOT of flawed sinners. We should be praying for those abused, those members of the hierarchy who failed them, AND those in the hierarchy who tried to do what was right.
4. Don’t give up. Don’t leave the Church in times of Scandal, stay and LEAD the Church, that means get involved, Call your archdiocese and offer to volunteer on any of their committees dealing with abuse allegations.
5. Write letters to your bishop, the USCCB and the Nuncio to the Vatican (addresses are available via google).

 

[Matt241]

“I have no problem with putting it in the form of “the one and only, holy and apostolic church teaches and attests that…” instead of “assumed”. It is still a human assumption, without evidence.”

You’re confusing the apostolic action of the Church with the operation of the Holy Spirit. While it is the operation of the Holy Spirit upon the Church, it is the Church (ie. the people in the church, lay and clerical alike) who are called to action through the intercession of the Holy Spirit. May seem semantics to you, but God, through the third Person of the Holy Trinity, is the driver, and we (His creation) who are His instruments on earth.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

No, I am not.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Jesus was BETRAYED by 10% of his apostles and by ALL of camp followers who ate His bread!

Stay the course.

 

[TheOldColonel]

I think your question is quite valid. Indeed, human goodness begs such a question from the faithful. For your God-given sense of right and wrong is rightly offended by news of evil conduct towards the most innocent among us. That harm cannot be undone through apologetic words, payment of money or new policies. How does one put back together shattered lives? How does one restore faith after such betrayal? Some pains cannot be soothed. Some wounds cannot be healed.

 

[Gorgias]

You don’t. That is why it is called “faith”… I used to have it, but now I don’t. And my life is so much better than it used to be. I only listen to my conscience, as I am supposed to do.

Actually, “just listen to your conscience alone” isn’t what the Church teaches; it’s what society teaches. Good luck following that guide…

What one attempts to be is irrelevant. What they ARE is important.

And the Church only claims to be the Body of Christ. Yep – you got it!

However the church itself claims that the Holy Spirit guides and protects it

Yep. Not that the Holy Spirit protects from each and every instance of sin (all you have to do is read the Bible to know that’s true!)

, and that the church is infallible in the questions of “faith and morals”. That is where the proverbial substance hits the fan.

Which teaching on faith and morals, then, is untrue?

That only extends to the founder… who happens to be God. The rest of us? Humans. Able to sin.

That is the question. The church alleges a divine origin without justification.

Right. The eyewitness testimony of those who were around to see it, doesn’t count, because…?

Indeed. Except I never CLAIMED to present anything except my personal opinion. The church claims something else.

What, in the current context, does the Church claim that is being shown untrue?

What would be wrong with granting special powers to the “divinely chosen” true religion?

It would mean that God would be coercing people to participate, in the way dictators rule, instead of inviting them to believe, in the way a loving God does.

Or, failing that, some undeniable manifestation or declaration coming directly from God. For example taking over all the TV networks, interrupting their programs, having God declaring the veracity of Catholicism and declaring all the “false” religions to be human concoctions. That should do the job. Of course I can already foresee the tired old nonsense about limiting our “free will”. As if having full disclosure would take away our powers to make a meaningful and free selection.

Ya think so?

If God came down, in some forceful and undeniable way, you’re saying that you would be able to “decide” in some “meaningful and free” way, that He exists and wants you to follow him? Yeah… right.

If He were to do what you suggest, then your question of ‘faith’ would be solved – since He wouldn’t be asking for faith, but simply abject obedience.

Your very assertion of lack of faith – and the freedom it gives you to make a choice – betrays your claims here.

 

[TheOldColonel]

Surely the facts will speak for themselves.

 

[TheOldColonel]

“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children."

-Samuel L. Jackson

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Gorgias]

Allowing the cover-up of the abuses is a de facto “teaching” (acts speak louder than words). If that is a “moral act” in your eyes…???

Nice try.

Weak… but nice try.

Can we cross-examine those alleged “eye”-witnesses? Or is that just another empty claim?

So… everything that historians have ever written is an ‘empty claim’, just because the eyewitnesses to the events have died? C’mon now… you can’t really believe what you’ve just written, can you?

To have an informed decision is infinitely better than blind faith.

Let’s consider a realistic example. We just returned from a trip to Yellowstone. There is well-documented warning of not putting your hand into the bubbling mud or an active geyser, because the water is acidic and burns your hand. Yet, you are free to do it - if you are stupid enough. Our guide told us that a woman tried to fill up her flask from a geyser, and lost her arm - deservedly so. There is no defense against stupidity…

Psst… the ‘informed decision’ comes from Scripture and the Church. There’s no ‘blind faith.’ In essence, you’re the flask-wielding woman in your example, since you know the teachings, but have decided to go with “what my conscience tells me.” You’re right, btw – there’s no defense against that…

 

[Gorgias]

I repeat, actions speak much louder than words. It is useless to deny it.

Yep. And you know what these actions say? “We messed up.”

Not “we condone this abuse” or even “our religion says this is a good thing to do” (which is where you’re taking it), but rather “we’ve got to do a better job.”

Thanks for pointing out what actions the Church in America has been taking for the past 16 years – addressing the problem!

Whether Caesar actually said: “Alea iacta est” is irrelevant. The eruption of the Vesuvius is not just documented by hearsay, it is corroborated by geological evidence. I hope you see the difference.

I do: you’re comparing apples to oranges – physical events to human acts. Generally, only the former leave empirical evidence, so it’s nonsensical to use the same standard for the former.

Read up on the Chinese whisper-game if you need to learn about the reliability of “testimonials”.

Read up on the role of the historian in illiterate societies. You’ll find they were more reliable than a game of “telephone”.

Can you (or the church) offer an independent verification method of your claims?

What type of verification method would you accept?

 

[Gorgias]

And you may have heard the expression: “too little, too late”.

What the Church is doing is certainly not “too little”. “Too late” to help those already victimized? Certainly. “Too late” to respond to them and offer support and counseling? Not in the least.

The question is “why didn’t the Holy Spirit urge the leaders sooner (or immediately) to step in and stop the cover up in the FIRST instance”?

How do you know that He didn’t?

If the human act does not leave a “mark”, it is not important to ascertain if it happened or not.

I’m not following you. Why not?

Please don’t try to evade.

I’m not. But, since you already proposed one that is completely unrealistic, I thought I’d give you a chance to offer something that does have a chance of being workable. If you cannot, then I understand.

Just use your intelligence and present some independent, objective and verifiable method that would allow me to ascertain that the bible and the church provide the reliable grounds for the “ informed decision ” to base our life upon?

How does “independent” come into play? Anyone with any skin in the game (and, btw, even you have skin in the game, since you have a belief in your particular answer) isn’t “independent”. If you demand that it must be ‘independent’, then you’re setting up a request that you know is impossible to fulfill.

What does “objective” mean in this case? Since we’re talking about things that, by your own words, don’t leave a “mark”, then are you saying that, by definition, we’ll never be able to provide an answer to your satisfaction?

In the end, it all comes down to your request for “verification”. Unless you say what suffices, the attempt will have no chance at success.

Don’t worry about being uncool. Let’s see what you would consider reasonable (other than demanding that God assent to your demand, simply on the basis that you’re demanding it)…

“…the ‘informed decision’ comes from Scripture and the Church.” This is your claim. What evidence can you provide for it?
[/quote]
What evidence can I provide for what? The claim I’m making is “Scripture and [the teachings of] the Church are the basis for an informed decision.” Not sure what ‘evidence’ you’re looking for.