End of my rope--if the Church is no better than secular institutions then why bother?

[Nelka]

The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord: “I can destroy your Church.”

The gentle voice of Our Lord: “You can? Then go ahead and do so.”

Satan: “To do so, I need more time and more power.”

Our Lord: "How much time? How much power?

Satan: “75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service.”

Our Lord: “You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will.”

Satan has tried but will fail.

 

[Hope1960]

How can the church be protected from errors in the case of “faith and morals ” if the cover-ups are tolerated and accepted by the Holy Spirit?

Good question and I hope someone has a satisfactory answer.

 

[SeriousQuestion]

Teaching something and doing something are two different things. The Holy Spirit tolerates many sins and sins don’t diminish His power to teach the truth through His representatives. Also it was promised to us in Sacred Scripture.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

How do you know that He didn’t?

Oh, you mean that there were other “cover-up attempts” but the holy spirit intervened and prevented them?

No, I mean that your conjecture doesn’t take into account the possibility that those involved weren’t listening to the promptings of the HS in the past. But hey… thanks for snarking.

I’m not. But, since you already proposed one that is completely unrealistic, I thought I’d give you a chance to offer something that does have a chance of being workable.

With God everything possible - as the saying goes.

“Saying”? You’re quoting the Bible. Let me continue to quote the Bible to you:

“Everything is permissible,” but not everything is helpful. “Everything is permissible,” but not everything builds up.

So… just because you present it as possible, doesn’t mean that it’s good – or reasonable.

Let’s stop this beating around the bush.

Let’s.

Your claim was that “the scriptures and the church” provide the basis for making informed decisions about the ways and means to conduct our lives so we can have a reasonable hope to get to heaven. (You can’t be certain, since “works alone are insufficient”.) That would require to accept the scriptures and the church as sufficient authorities. I hope you are aware that not even all Christians accept that claim.

Agreed. You’ve just moved the goalposts… you realize that, don’t you? Suddenly, now that I’ve presented a means to substantiate belief, your response isn’t about the lack of an argument – now, it’s about whether you’re willing to accept the evidence. Sorry – if you want to continue, you can say “you’ve presented evidence, but I reject it”, but not “there’s no evidence”. Now, suddenly, the onus is on you.

By the way, I am NOT DEMANDING anything.

Umm…

use your intelligence and present some independent, objective and verifiable method that would allow me to ascertain that the bible and the church provide the reliable grounds for the “ informed decision ” to base our life upon

This is your claim. What evidence can you provide for it?

So… umm… yeah. If you say so.

So, let’s just finish this nonsense. You have no evidence for your claim. And you have no courage to admit that. As expected, of course.

Nice try. Again… weak. But, nice try.

I presented evidence. But, to quote you… “you have no courage to admit that. Of course.”

 

[Annie]

Wait… a minute

 

[alphawoman]

I really like this post!

 

[kainosktisis]

I honestly believe that the Church is being purified. The Church as God’s household is being cleaned out now: all that may have taken root that is evil is being exposed & will be uprooted - expelled. Why? Because it’s like gangrene in the Church. Satanists have entered the fold to try to bring it down from the inside out.

Read the writings of the Later Prophets & you’ll get a feel for how far Israel had fallen away. Read 1 Corinthians to see the problems that the Early Church had to deal with.

As bad as it may appear, it is good that all of this be exposed! It has to come out! Nothing impure can enter heaven, & I think it’s safe to say that Our Heavenly Father is cleaning house! No more! He’s shining light to expose this like shining light on roaches & watching them scatter.

Pray the Rosary. We need to be stronger now more than ever. Put on the full armor of God so you can stand (Ephesians 6:10-20). The angels are at their posts, & know that a cloud of saints surround you always. God is with you.

I was listening to the Drew Mariani Show on Relevant Radio yesterday, & Drew played a Homily dated 19 Aug 2018 from Fr. Robert Altier. I found it timely - much needed. Take note though. Parental discretion may be needed for younger ears as it does pertain to the scandal faced now (Who says our priests don’t talk about the meatier matters of life?):

Fr. Robert Altier’s Homily Dated 19 Aug 2018 (St. Raphael Church):

Ephesians 6 (NABRE-USCCB):

Ephesians, CHAPTER 6 | USCCB

 

[Annie]

Actions speaks louder than a thousand words. Whatever the church “teaches” pales in the light of what the church “does” or rather “does NOT do”. Of course eventually there is a proper action from the church - when the cover-up becomes untenable. But for the victims it is too late, too little.

Heinous and despicable crimes were committed by some those who were given spiritually great positions. It is absolutely horrible, you are right. And the bishops are scrambling and not leading us well. No wonder we all feel revulsion.

But when we turn our gaze to the sights of those who follow Church teaching rather than trample Church teaching, we see heights of love and goodness we could never attain on our own.

The Church is the Body of Christ. When Christ was on the cross, His body bloody and covered by stripes from the scourging, He looked awful too. He had been abandoned by most of His disciples after being betrayed by one.

We have to think about where we will gaze, and whether we want to put ourselves on the side of those who went against Church teaching, or those who loved Christ enough to stay with Him.

 

[ATraveller]

jtavington:

At least when I was a Protestant, I could claim that these monsters were not really Christians.

So you employed the No True Scotsman argument? That doesn’t exactly make Protestantism look any better.

It definitely doesn’t make Protestants look any better (and I can easily produce a list of atrocious abuses done by Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, secular organizations, you name it, similar to what the Catholic Church is dealing with).
I can’t speak for all Protestants (no one can) but broadly, it’s a product of how many Protestants view things. Whereas a person is baptised at infancy is Christian for life in the eyes of the Catholic Church, that can’t be said for many if not most Protestants. I personally haven’t heard any Protestants express a view like that of Catholicism. Baptism doesn’t confer anything like that, especially among Baptists. Faith makes a Christian and the fruits it yields are outward evidence of Faith.
I don’t know if Catholicism has anything like the concept of a false convert but it does for a number of us and I would argue this is also another factor in why Protestants make the above statement. Simply, a false convert is anyone who joins a church but lives a life that’s not consistent with Christian living.

 

[ZMystiCat]

I don’t know if Catholicism has anything like the concept of a false convert but it does for a number of us and I would argue this is also another factor in why Protestants make the above statement. Simply, a false convert is anyone who joins a church but lives a life that’s not consistent with Christian living.

Technically, grave sins like the sexual abuse could count as mortal sin. It is absolutely a grave matter, and the priests no doubt committed them with full knowledge. Maybe there were mitigating circumstances at play, such as mental illness, that prevent it from meeting the full consent requirement, but I doubt such mitigating circumstances were present for all. Basically, by nature of committing the act, it is possible that these men removed themselves from God’s grace.

 

[brian_custer]

another “1 day wonder” ; coming to CAF to post scandal

there are tighter quals to be able to post on the “sports boards” i post on

the mods “hammer me” here continually; i’ve been banned numerous times

yet snipers like this get to post at will; without any moderation whatsoever

something is wrong with this picture

 

[CradleRC58]

Simple

Jesus Christ told Peter that he was the rock upon which he will build his Church.

… he didn’t say " churches ".

 

[Vico]

… But if the Body of Christ is no better than the secular world, then how do we know that it is the Body of Christ? …

The Church includes the living and the dead: The Saints in heavenly state and in purification in purgatorial state, and those that are in sanctifying grace living here. There are also the baptized that have fallen into mortal sin, but which we do not certainly without revelation.

 

[epostle1]

The letter from Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò
that has gone viral and rocked the Church,
is highly suspicious. https://assets.documentcloud.org/do...ONYXCMVX-XENGLISH-CORRECTED-FINAL-VERSION.pdf
Richard Sipe is named in it 4X. In an 11-page letter that Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis — among other top Catholic Church officials — had been aware of sexual misconduct allegations against former D.C. archbishop Cardinal Theodore McCarrick years before he resigned this summer.

This is a lie.

Richard Sipe is an embittered ex-priest with an axe to grind.
has long been exposed by the Catholic League
as a liar. The world sees him as an expert
on clergy sex abuse. IMO, Sipe is an an enemy of the
Church.

PAT ROBERTSON LECTURES CATHOLIC CHURCH​

PAT ROBERTSON HOSTS CHURCH CRITIC

On the March 3 edition of "The 700 Club," TV evangelist Pat Robertson ran a segment on celibacy in the Catholic Church. Invited to appear with Robertson was therapist A.W. Richard Sipe. Sipe used the occasion of the latest report on sexual abuse by priests to challenge the wisdom of celibacy.

www.catholicleague.org

-lectures-catholic-church/.
The letter lists bad guys, on the list is
Cardinal Donald Wuerl, who has been unjustly
framed for knowing what he didn’t know.
Wuerl was in Burlington, Seattle, and Pittsburgh when McCarrick was allegedly preying on seminarians in his home in Sea Girt, New Jersey. To hold him accountable for McCarrick’s deeds is absurd and patently unfair.

SCAPEGOATING CARDINAL WUERL – Catholic League

The crazies on the Catholic right have set their sights on Cardinal Donald Wuerl, Archbishop of Washington. Why? Because he is close to Pope Francis, and they hate the pope. The attacks are coming from The Church Militant, a loose gang of angry right-wingers who specialize in character assassination, and American Spectator hater George Neumayr.

RIGHT-WING NUTS RIP CARDINAL WUERL

Bill Donohue addresses recent attacks on Cardinal Donald Wuerl: The crazies on the Catholic right have set their sights on Cardinal Donald Wuerl, Archbishop of Washington. Why? Because he is close to Pope Francis, and they hate the pope. The attacks are coming

www.catholicleague.org

I would have dug deeper into the EX-Nuncio’s
phony letter, but the smell was getting to me.

Pray for the release of Fr. Macrea, who has
been sentenced to 67 years based on no
evidence, and for Cardinal Pell of Australia,
who has been dragged before courts for years, by
judicial and media lynch mobs.
What I think is urgently needed to check this
demon is the Rosary and the Eucharist.
If we are going to petition our bishops for anything, it should be a return of the Prayer to St. Michael at every Mass.
Today, the Church is standing before
Pontius Pilate. When the crowd shouts,
"CRUCIFY HIM!! CRUCIFY HIM!!!
we need disenchanted Catholics to pray, not run.

 

[epostle1]

Bishop Robert McElroy concurs with my suspicion that something has gone terribly wrong.

He said: “In its ideologically-driven selection of bishops who are attacked, in its clear efforts to settle old personal scores, in its omission of any reference to Archbishop Vigano’s own massive personal participation in the covering up of sexual abuse by bishops, and most profoundly in its hatred for Pope Francis and all that he has taught, Archbishop Viganò consistently subordinates the pursuit of comprehensive truth to partisanship, division and distortion.”

Statement by Bishop McElroy on “testimony” by former Papal Nuncio​

https://www.sdcatholic.org/

The garbage published by certain Catholic media outlets is depressing.

 

[epostle1]

August 27, 2018

The Archdiocese of Newark and Cardinal Joseph W. Tobin, C.Ss.R. express shock, sadness and consternation at the wide-ranging array of allegations published by the former apostolic nuncio to the United States of America, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, which cannot be understood as contributing to the healing of survivors of sexual abuse.

The factual errors, innuendo and fearful ideology of the “testimony” serve to strengthen our conviction to move ahead resolutely in protecting the young and vulnerable from any sort of abuse, while guaranteeing a safe and respectful environment where all are welcome and breaking down the structures and cultures that enable abuse.

Together with Pope Francis, we are confident that scrutiny of the claims of the former nuncio will help to establish the truth.

https://www.rcan.org/statement-response-testimony-archbishop-carlo-maria-viganò-former-apostolic-nuncio-united-states

 

[Sedona]

I think the problem is that we have been conditioned and in some cases taught to conflate Church with God. Churches are organizations and run by humans, and it follows that we can expect all the best and worst of human behaviors within it. No church is free of human problems, but they offer a continuity with humans through the ages and at least through conditioning, a certain connection with God. But in the end, it’s ultimately a personal connection with God and the world around us that each person has to develop a perception of. While they serve as a supportive venue, churches can’t take the place of your own direct experience of God and it’s unrealistic to expect them to be perfect or even more good than any human endeavor or any worse than any other human enterprise. Even if you believe that this particular church was founded by and guided by Jesus Himself, it was in truth handed over to humans to run. Therefore it has always been and always will be attended by human problems and is only as good as it’s members. So, I guess it’s on us, and right now we have a mess to straighten out.

All the best

 

[bobperk]

I honestly believe that the Church is being purified.

One should have holy and pious hope that this purification is occurring prior to the synod on “Youth and Discernment” which starts in a bit over a month. One can only wonder what sorts of novelties have been planned for this event. But now, as if it already wasn’t known, the actual cover ups and behind-the-scenes trickery are being exposed. So even if this “Youth” synod presents unorthodox teachings, the faithful and knowledgeable Catholic will know what types of men presented the ideas.

Reference the recent National Catholic Register article, http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/have-synods-become-vehicles-for-legitimizing-heterodoxy

 

[bobperk]

Bishop Robert McElroy concurs with my suspicion that something has gone terribly wrong.

Of course he does, he is part of the problem https://www.churchmilitant.com/news...cabal-persecutes-faithful-san-diego-catholics

 

[Gorgias]

That does not absolve the holy spirit from neglecting to protect the church in the matter of “morals”.

You’re conflating a boatload of distinct ideas here. Yes, we believe that “the Holy Spirit protects the Church”. Yes, we believe that the Holy Spirit inspires the Church to correctly teach “faith and morals”. However, these do not mean what you’re attempting to imply that they mean.

It does not mean that the HS is standing over the Church, paddle in hand, to punish the guilty or prevent people from sinning.

It does mean that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from incorrect teaching on faith and morals.

Now… what we, as individual humans – laity, consecrated religious, priests, bishops, deacons – actually do, in response to that teaching, is on our own consciences. The HS gives the teaching; it’s up to us to follow it.

When we fail to follow it properly, that’s not an instance of the HS failing to “protect the Church.”

I’m sorry you have this misunderstanding… but you really are twisting these words in order to make them mean something that they don’t.

So far you did not present any arguments which would substantiate your claim that the bible and the church really have the authority to show us (non-Catholics and ex-Catholics) that they have the ways and means to “lead” us to heaven. Your word alone carries no weight whatsoever.

I would say that it’s manifest, based on their context. Are you asking for provenance for these teachings? Are you asking for ‘proof’ that people who follow them go to heaven? C’mon … you’re really not that naive, are you?

As a matter of fact the church is unable to answer some of the most important questions, like “what is the fate of the miscarried fetuses”? For millennia the “teaching” was that they will land in hell, and only not long ago was the “teaching” changed to: “we don’t know but we trust God that they MIGHT get to heaven.”

“Millennia” is hyperbole, in this case. Yes, for hundreds of years, the theological opinion varied – some suggested that they were in heaven (but without the full experience of the Beatific Vision); others suggested that they were in hell (but in a part where there was no suffering). This, however, was never the official teaching of the magisterium of the Universal Church.

So, when asked recently what the Church actually does teach on this matter, the answer came back “we entrust them to God, who is merciful and desires all to be saved.” (My paraphrase.)

You can call this a ‘changed teaching’ – I call it the first official statement of the Universal Church on this matter.