End of my rope--if the Church is no better than secular institutions then why bother?

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More like “you don’t leave Peter because he’s let Judas into the church”.
 
Rahn said:
More like “you don’t leave Peter because he’s let Judas into the church”.
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When I wrote “you don’t leave Jesus because of Judas”, I was referring to people who are saying they are going to leave the Catholic Church (Jesus in the Eucharist and other Sacraments) because of priests and bishops who have betrayed Him (Judas).
 
I will stay faithful to the church, but these men dont serve my faithfulness.
 
Please consider that Satan just loves it when Catholics leave the Church on account of the sins of some of her children. Disillusionment is part of the demonic plan - don’t fall for it!
 
Zurf said:
Heh! That reminds me of “It depends on what IS is”? Or, “I did not have sex with that woman”…
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The irony here is that you don’t get what you’re missing in this situation: those presidential denials were attempts to change common understandings of common terms; here, you are attempting to change the theological understandings of those theological concepts! 🤣
Zurf said:
I see no “naivete” in asking for substantiation of a claim, be it physical, chemical or theological. Asserted without evidence, discarded without evidence - is the name of the game.
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Fair enough. I agree.

So, that’s why I’m asking you: what type of ‘evidence’ are you willing to accept? I’ve already held out the Bible and Apostolic teaching as evidence – and apparently, you’re rejecting them without consideration or explanation!
Zurf said:
If everyone, from the pope down to the last laymen all believe something, then it does not need to be put down on paper - it is the de facto the teaching of the ordinary magisterium.
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Ahh, the ‘sensus fidelium’. Yes, in the 2nd half of the 20th century, we did see some folks try to make the assertion in the way you’re making it. (Remember those halycion days, when progressives thought they could make the claim fly that “since Catholics all generally are OK with birth control, therefore, Humanae Vitae is not the authentic teaching of the Church”? Oh, I remember those days fondly! Oh, wait… no, I don’t. 😉 )
Zurf said:
Of course it is a usual attempt to “cop out” when an inconvenient question is presented: “but was not the official teaching”… 🙂 Such a weak attempt to get rid of it.
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Show me a papal bull that teaches it – which, by the way, would be the way that a teaching of the universal Church is presented – and I’ll shut up. Otherwise, if you have nothing to base your argument on… 🤷‍♂️
 
Zurf said:
That “teaching” does not have to be done with words. Actions speak much louder than words.
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Yes, but actions aren’t ‘teaching’. Especially actions that literally are the opposite of the relevant teaching. :roll_eyes:
Zurf said:
We are NOT talking about some ill-defined “majority opinion” here, rather, one hundred percent, complete agreement starting with the pope, the cardinals, the bishops, all the clergy and, or course everyone in the congregation: “the miscarried fetuses - who have never been baptized - are fodders for the fire of hell.”
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And, here’s where your argument explicitly falls apart. No, there was not “100% agreement” that unborn children were “fodder for the fires of hell.” Some believed “heaven, but not in the Beatific Vision”. Since, then, there was not consensus, therefore you cannot make the claim that it was the constant teaching of the Church. QED. (Thanks for playing! Please come again! 😉 )
This used to be the official teaching, even without an explicit papal bull… If anyone would “demand” an official papal bull… for every claim that you make, we all would enjoy a wonderful and peaceful silence, since you would have nothing to say.
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We can demand it for what the Church actually does teach, and what we find written down! We just can’t find it, as in this case, for what the Church doesn’t teach. 😉
 
Annie said:
Heinous and despicable crimes were committed by some those who were given spiritually great positions. It is absolutely horrible, you are right. And the bishops are scrambling and not leading us well. No wonder we all feel revulsion.

But when we turn our gaze to the sights of those who follow Church teaching rather than trample Church teaching, we see heights of love and goodness we could never attain on our own.

The Church is the Body of Christ. When Christ was on the cross, His body bloody and covered by stripes from the scourging, He looked awful too. He had been abandoned by most of His disciples after being betrayed by one.

We have to think about where we will gaze, and whether we want to put ourselves on the side of those who went against Church teaching, or those who loved Christ enough to stay with Him.
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Nailed it!
 
people who communicate every day, who have very advanced theological knowledge, who do Mass at least once a day, who recite the divine service every day, etc. should have on average a holiness far above the common man!
If that is not the case then there is a deep problem, and very serious somewhere, which one absolutely needs to identify.
 
Yeah. My priest, who is a good and holy man, says to take comfort in the Eucharist but as someone who pretty much soldiered on for a long time with intellectual assent+obedience I’ve reached the point of “how do I know any of this is true when I see no difference in virtue between Catholics, Protestants, and nones and when how close to God I feel correlates with how well my anxiety and depression are under control?”
 
Doing the raprochement with Judas, is inappropriate in my opinion! Yes there was Judas, but on the other side there were virtues heroic practiced by all the other apostles. If the majority of bishops and priests who are not “Judas”, showed heroic virtues as all the other apostles did in the past, then believe me, one would observe a fervor faith generalized .
 
@Mboo Yeah, so things have gotten worse, and they’re gonna get worse still. That’s not reason for leaving. Certainly not. To the contrary. Double down on your faith and strengthening true discipleship of Christ.
 
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there is no question of leaving the Church, but we must lucidly understand where the bug is.
the Church teaches us that frequent communion progressively diminishes passions and increases charity when we take communion in a state of grace, but priests take communion very frequently!
 
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the Church teaches us that to receive communion properly, one must be in a state of grace, and not take communion for fanciful reasons.
Do you think this is really the case for the majority of Christians in general and priests in particular?
 
@Mboo Many many good priests take communion every day in a state of grace and so are strengthened, same as all of us who do so. There are those pastors too though who are living in sin and so are certainly NOT strengthened through their sacrilege. May God have mercy on their souls. Though Christ does in fact make it clear that Judas was lost in the end.
Welcome to the human race. 🙂
 
Zurf:

The Church is protected from teaching wrongly with regards to faith and morals. That is what is meant by infallability.

That does not mean that members of the hierarchy, including the pope, will be impeccable. They, too, have free will and can sin.

We have had some bad popes…but our Lord Jesus Christ promised to be with us always.
 
There’s more to receiving Communion than that. A lot of people don’t even go to Confession these days.
 
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