End of the 60's is near

[b_justb]

I was looking for images of pre-Vatican II contortionists and I liked this one:

http://valentino-art.hit.bg/contortionist_maggi_2_big.jpg

Ohhhhhh you said conformist … never mind

p.s. the op cartoon is funny

 

[skatepixie]

Perhaps, since this is in the liturgy and sacraments subforum…the OP means it in reference to some of the things that have happened within the liturgy…ie folk mass, protestant type praise and worship music during Holy Mass…etc.

Note…this isn’t the same as issues such as racism, etc, but more the idea that people can do whatever and it’s all okay…peace and love, etc, etc.

 

[Metaron]

Does this mean we’ll return to the mindset that existed before the 60’s?

Uh-- Where on earth did you get that?

Things like,

Forced segregation.

Blacks can not vote

These were societal problems. Were they ever endorsed by the Church? No! Stop complaining and blaming the Church for every bad thing that happens on this planet! These kinds of Catholics are the reason the Church gets a bad reputation.

We accept what the government tells us, even if if means sending our kids off to be killed in needless wars.

Yeah. The Church never endorsed this. Stop making stuff up.

All Protestants are going to hell.

The Church has never made a blanket statement like that at all. Stop lying.

Catholics not allowed to visit Protestant churches.

Who would want to anyway?

Women must keep their heads covered and their mouths shut.

Headcovering-- what a wonderful sacramental. And haven’t you read St.Paul? He said that women shouldn’t have leadership positions in the Church. He’s right, of course. You sound like a liberal Episcopalian. Do you want gay priests and bishops too?

Obey the priest, even when he’s abusing you,… after all, he’s a man of God.

Stop lying! The Church never made a statement like that. You’re just on a personal vendetta against the Church. I’m so glad that BXVI is correcting the Vatican II abuses.

Nuns can beat children at will.

The Church never made a statement like that.
No, but they can discipline them at will. I want my children disciplined, don’t you?

Uhmm, no thanks.

Um, you’re just spreading lies. I think you’re a CINO.

Although the 60’s had some problems, it was from that time period that we ended up with the freedoms we have today. Freedoms that some of our fellow Americans did not share.
Freedoms that if you had to go without them, you’d be screaming!

Vatican II abuses are what lead to Clown Masses, low biblical literacy among Catholics, denial or ignorance of the Real Presence, an end in some places of Eucharistic Adoration, ephibophiliac priests, liberality of laity and clergy alike, etc, etc… finally these abuses may be corrected under BXVII. Alleluia.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You mean a reality that in your mind was only bad, as your list made quite clear. And that’s simply not the reality of the realities of the pre-60s and pre-Vatican II.

Well les see, Pope John Paul II apologized for the racism, sexism, anti-semitism and pain and suffering caused by the Church over the centuries. I guess it was just in his mind?

Like I said earlier, which you seem to have missed, pre-Vatican II, was a good time for many of us to grow up, but for others, it was not. There were issues that would not have changed if not for Vatican II, which I was pointing out to the OP’er, which he is apparently too young to have a clue about.

Of course, I’ve also seen in this forum, as well as other forums, where gen X’ers are blaming the baby-boom generation for all their suffering. The cartoon seems to suggest this mentality.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Metaron

These were societal problems. Were they ever endorsed by the Church? No! Stop complaining and blaming the Church for every bad thing that happens on this planet! These kinds of Catholics are the reason the Church gets a bad reputation.

The cartoon says and end to the 60’s. This can be interpreted as an end to the changes in society of the 60’s or Vatican II. Take your pic. Also, I didn’t blame the Church for everything bad, don’t add words to my post.
However, the Church had issues that if not for Vatican II, would’ve put the church in worse shape than it is now and quiet frankly, aside from the shortage of priest, I don’t see the Church as being so bad off right now.

Yeah. The Church never endorsed this. Stop making stuff up.

Some things the Church taught, such as, no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Racism, the Church didn’t endorse racism, but they didn’t do much to stop it either. I didn’t make anything up. Pope John Paul II himself apologized for the Church’s racism. Also, a Bishop recently came out with an apology for the racism that was practiced in his own dioceses. Take your blinders off.

The Church has never made a blanket statement like that at all. Stop lying.

You’re now calling me a liar. The burden of proof that I lied, is on your end.

Headcovering-- what a wonderful sacramental. And haven’t you read St.Paul? He said that women shouldn’t have leadership positions in the Church. He’s right, of course. You sound like a liberal Episcopalian. Do you want gay priests and bishops too?

How do you get women head covering in leadership roles the Church ?

Stop lying!

Once again, accusing me of lying. I believe this is against the CAF rules.

You also accuse me of other nonsense.

I’ll end the discussion here.

God Bless
Jim

 

[VociMike]

Well les see, Pope John Paul II apologized for the racism, sexism, anti-semitism and pain and suffering caused by the Church over the centuries. I guess it was just in his mind?

If that were all he said about the Church over the centuries, then yes, it was just in his mind.

But of course that’s not all he said about the Church over the centuries.

 

[Dempsey1919]

JimR-OCDS:

All Protestants are going to hell.

You are mistaken. The Church has never taught this. You do not understand this doctrine properly.

This is what Holy Mother Church has always taught:

Note: I have placed the relevant passages which show that the Church has never damned Protestants in bold.

It has been the constant teaching of the Magisterium that “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” The Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX stated:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge;** we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord.** And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

December 9th, 1854

The Catechism states:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

**Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.**337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

As you can see, the Church teaches that it is possible for non-Catholics to attain salvation in cases of invincible ignorance. This has been the constant teaching of the Church.

JimR-OCDS:

This is a change as a result of Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, there was no salvation for those outside the “Catholic Church.” We were not even permitted to enter into a protestant Church, never mind attend one of their services…

No teaching changed after Vatican II. Vatican II was pastoral, not dogmatic.

Furthermore, your understanding of “Outside the Church there is no salvation” has been formally condemned as heresy. It is known as “Feeneyism.”

On 4th February 1953, Father Leonard Feeney was excommunicated by the Holy Office for teaching that salvation was never possible outside the Catholic Church. Father Feeney taught that salvation was only possible for those who had been baptised by water within the Catholic Church. He was excommunicated because he believed that all non-Catholics are automatically condemned.

This is more evidence to show that prior to Vatican II, the Church did not teach that “all Protestants are going to hell.”

 

[fix]

Well les see, Pope John Paul II apologized for the racism, sexism, anti-semitism and pain and suffering caused by the Church over the centuries. I guess it was just in his mind?

The Church or people in the Church?

 

[bones_IV]

Well les see, Pope John Paul II apologized for the racism, sexism, anti-semitism and pain and suffering caused by the Church over the centuries. I guess it was just in his mind?

Read Mit Brenender Serge

"The experiences of these last years have fixed responsibilities and laid bare intrigues, which from the outset only aimed at a war of extermination. Whoever identifies, by pantheistic confusion, God and the universe, by either lowering God to the dimensions of the world, or raising the world to the dimensions of God, is not a believer in God. Whoever follows that so-called pre-Christian Germanic conception of substituting a dark and impersonal destiny for the personal God, denies thereby the Wisdom and Providence of God who “Reacheth from end to end mightily, and ordereth all things sweetly” (Wisdom viii. 1)."

**“The peak of the revelation as reached in the Gospel of Christ is final and permanent. It knows no retouches by human hand; it admits no substitutes or arbitrary alternatives such as certain leaders pretend to draw from the so-called myth of race and blood. ****His command to hear the Church (Matt. xviii. 15), to welcome in the words and commands of the Church His own words and His own commands (Luke x. 16), is addressed to all men, of all times and of all countries. The Church founded by the Redeemer is one, the same for all races and all nations. Beneath her dome, as beneath the vault of heaven, there is but one country for all nations and tongue;”

****“To all those who have kept their promised fidelity to their Bishops on the day of their ordination; to all those who in the exercise of their priestly function are called upon to suffer persecution; to all those imprisoned in jail and concentration camps, the Father of the Christian world sends his words of gratitude and commendation.”
**

Jim,
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach sexism. Read some of John Paul II’s writings. Tell me, why are 2/3’s of the Church’s saints women? Tell me, why does the Church teach that every sexual act must be open to the gift of life? Tell me that.

There were issues that would not have changed if not for Vatican II, which I was pointing out to the OP’er, which he is apparently too young to have a clue about.

More from those who like to characterize the Church through the drama of their own upbringing.

Of course, I’ve also seen in this forum, as well as other forums, where gen X’ers are blaming the baby-boom generation for all their suffering. The cartoon seems to suggest this mentality.

Jim

I didn’t say that. An attempt to put words in my mouth eh?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

For those who doubt what I said, and in fact called me a liar, about some of what the Church taught, pre-Vatican II.
Lets take a look at what Catholic children of PreVatican II, had to memorize.

From the Baltimore Catechism;

1. Are all obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved?
   All are obliged to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be saved.
   Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.” (John 14:6)

1. What do we mean when we say, “Outside the Church there is no salvation?”
   When we say, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” we mean that Christ made the Catholic Church a necessary means of salvation and commanded all to enter it, so that a person must be connected with the Church in some way to be saved.

1. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?
   Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.

The above is what the average Catholic was taught. Of course there was more explanation to this, and of course, because of the times, it was misleading. Yes, Catholics like myself were taught, that protestants, because they knew that the Catholic Church was the true Church established by Jesus Christ, but rejected it, would not be saved.

My point is, if not for Vatican II, the average Catholic would’ve been left to the literal words of the Baltimore Catechism, unless they went into further education, usually in the seminary.

Vatican II, opened the doors for us to learn the true doctrines of the Catholic Church. The teachings that some have posted in this thread, would not have been taught to the average Catholic, if not for Vatican II.

Jim

 

[bones_IV]

For those who doubt what I said, and in fact called me a liar, about some of what the Church taught, pre-Vatican II.
Lets take a look at what Catholic children of PreVatican II, had to memorize.

From the Baltimore Catechism;

The above is what the average Catholic was taught. Of course there was more explanation to this, and of course, because of the times, it was misleading. Yes, Catholics like myself were taught, that protestants, because they knew that the Catholic Church was the true Church established by Jesus Christ, but rejected it, would not be saved.

My point is, if not for Vatican II, the average Catholic would’ve been left to the literal words of the Baltimore Catechism, unless they went into further education, usually in the seminary.

Vatican II, opened the doors for us to learn the true doctrines of the Catholic Church. The teachings that some have posted in this thread, would not have been taught to the average Catholic, if not for Vatican II.

Jim

This shows how little you know about Catholic doctrine.

 

[Dempsey1919]

^^^ ^^^ ^^^

(See quote above)

The Church still teaches this. The Baltimore Catechism was a basic summary of doctrine. For a more fuller explanation, you have to read the encyclicals etc.

Re-read my post. It details exactly what the Church has always taught concerning this particular doctrine. It sounds as if the brevity of the Baltimore Catechism led you to misunderstand the doctrine of “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

 

[fix]

For those who doubt what I said, and in fact called me a liar, about some of what the Church taught, pre-Vatican II.
Lets take a look at what Catholic children of PreVatican II, had to memorize.

From the Baltimore Catechism;

The above is what the average Catholic was taught. Of course there was more explanation to this, and of course, because of the times, it was misleading. Yes, Catholics like myself were taught, that protestants, because they knew that the Catholic Church was the true Church established by Jesus Christ, but rejected it, would not be saved.

My point is, if not for Vatican II, the average Catholic would’ve been left to the literal words of the Baltimore Catechism, unless they went into further education, usually in the seminary.

Vatican II, opened the doors for us to learn the true doctrines of the Catholic Church. The teachings that some have posted in this thread, would not have been taught to the average Catholic, if not for Vatican II.

Jim

Which part of that link is incorrect?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach sexism.

Tell that to the women who were told by her priest to go back home and offer up their beatings their husband’s gave them, that the Church didn’t practice sexism.

Tell that to the women, who were told to sit in the pews with their heads covered, and never think of being more involved in the Mass than they were.

We didn’t have altar girls or women lectors before Vatican II, if you didn’t know. It wasn’t allowed!
Heck, women couldn’t even do the collections at Mass.

Read some of John Paul II’s writings. Tell me, why are 2/3’s of the Church’s saints women? Tell me, why does the Church teach that every sexual act must be open to the gift of life? Tell me that.

You know this because of Vatican II. You would not know much more than what the Baltimore Catechism taught, if not for Vatican II.

BTW, many fundamentalist who oppose Vatican II, generally don’t like Pope John Paul II.

More from those who like to characterize the Church through the drama of their own upbringing.

Wasn’t my upbringing. Vatican II was called for a reason.

I didn’t say that. An attempt to put words in my mouth eh? :cool

Go back and read what I said, I never said YOU.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This shows how little you know about Catholic doctrine.

This shows how little you know about what the average Catholic was taught in Pre-Vatican II.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Which part of that link is incorrect?

1. What do we mean when we say, “Outside the Church there is no salvation?”
   When we say, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” we mean that Christ made the Catholic Church a necessary means of salvation and commanded all to enter it, so that a person must be connected with the Church in some way to be saved

This means that the Jews, Hindus, or Muslims, who reject the Catholic Church, will not be saved.

Jim

 

[bones_IV]

Tell that to the women who were told by her priest to go back home and offer up their beatings their husband’s gave them, that the Church didn’t practice sexism.

Tell that to the women, who were told to sit in the pews with their heads covered, and never think of being more involved in the Mass than they were.

We didn’t have altar girls or women lectors before Vatican II, if you didn’t know. It wasn’t allowed!
Heck, women couldn’t even do the collections at Mass.

And the point? The Church is infallible in it’s teachings sinful in it’s members…

You know this because of Vatican II. You would not know much more than what the Baltimore Catechism taught, if not for Vatican II.

BTW, many fundamentalist who oppose Vatican II, generally don’t like Pope John Paul II.

I really do not appreciate being called a fundamentalist.

Wasn’t my upbringing. Vatican II was called for a reason.

But you said,

There were issues that would not have changed if not for Vatican II, which I was pointing out to the OP’er, which he is apparently too young to have a clue about.

Go back and read what I said, I never said YOU.

Jim

but you said,

Of course, I’ve also seen in this forum, as well as other forums, where gen X’ers are blaming the baby-boom generation for all their suffering. The cartoon seems to suggest this mentality.

 

[dbacks5439]

This means that the Jews, Hindus, or Muslims, who reject the Catholic Church, will not be saved.

Jim

Jesus said whoever is not for us is against us. A Muslim who is against the Church is against the Church. Your understanding of EENS suggests that all are saved, or relativism. That is a heresy.

 

[Brian_C]

That’s not what the BC is saying, though. We can’t help what you were taught. It’s right there in black and white.

1. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?

Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.

Nope, it doesn’t and it never did. It merely says if a person KNOWINGLY rejects the Church. You must be convinced that what the Church teaches is true THEN reject it. How many people actually do that?

 

[bones_IV]

This means that the Jews, Hindus, or Muslims, who reject the Catholic Church, will not be saved.

Jim

If one knows that the Catholic Church is necessary but refuses to enter it or refuses to remain it then they cannot be saved.