End of the 60's is near

[JimR-OCDS]

From

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. **For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. **vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Bold is my emphasis.

Prior to Vatican II, this would have been heretical for a Catholic to believe.

Jim

 

[brotherhrolf]

Jim, even after V II we had to get permission from our parish priest in 1967 to attend a memorial service for my protestant grandmother. As for what we believed…

My grandfather was Catholic and married my grandmother who was a divorced protestant back in the 1910s. He was, of course, excommunicated from both HMC and his family. His sister (my great aunt) was good friends with my great aunt on my mother’s side. Every year on All Saints Day when we cleaned the tomb of my mother’s family, my great aunt would take the three of us and walk us over to the other side of the cemetary to meet our great aunt on my father’s Catholic side of the family.

I never once believed that my father and his family were condemned to hell simply because they were protestant. Good Lord how many 6 am Masses did my father wake me up and drive me to serve? My father worked two jobs to put the three of us all the way through Catholic high school.

I grew up before V II and never ever questioned that Our Lord would deal with my father and his family in any other way than what they deserved. As a product of a “mixed marriage”, I asked.

 

[Brian_C]

Again, reference the Baltimore Catechism:

1. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?

Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.

Perhaps people chose to ignore this teaching pre-1960s the way they chose to ignore Church teaching on contraception post-1960s.

 

[Shoshana]

Let me just say that I admire your prayer threads, although I don’t totally understand how they work.

Contemplative prayer, especially intercessory prayer for priests, is one of the things needed to renew the Church and lift it up from the disasters of the sixties.

Can I ask what you need to know? I would be more than obliging to help. Actually, one can simply pray the rosary for the priest thread and need not add anything to it, like I do or Edwin does. It just is my way in praying for all kinds of priests in different stages of their lives that prompted me to do so. But, really, a rosary alone is quite sufficient as all of it is dedicated to the cause of all priests/seminarians/vocations. Or, even a decade would be great. There are no set rules. I would love to hear from you…

 

[fix]

First Question: Did the Second Vatican Council change the Catholic doctrine on the Church?

     ***Response: ***The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to         change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully         explained it.
     
    This was exactly what John XXIII said at the beginning of the Council1.         Paul VI affirmed it2 and commented in the act of promulgating         the Constitution *Lumen gentium*: "There is no better comment to         make than to say that this promulgation really changes nothing of the         traditional doctrine. What Christ willed, we also will. What was, still         is. What the Church has taught down through the centuries, we also         teach. In simple terms that which was assumed, is now explicit; that         which was uncertain, is now clarified; that which was meditated upon,         discussed and sometimes argued over, is now put together in one clear         formulation"3. The Bishops repeatedly expressed and fulfilled         this intention4.

Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Brian_C

1. How can persons who are not members of the Catholic Church be saved?

Persons who are not members of the Catholic Church can be saved if, through no fault of their own, they do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but they love God and try to do His will, for in this way they are connected with the Church by desire.

The problem was, Protestants, were considered to be those who knew the Catholic Church is the true Church, but rejected it anyway, therefore they were not saved.

Any Catholic who lived before Vatican II can tell you what they were taught about Protestants.

BTW, ask converted protestants what they were taught about Catholics, and some are still taught the same thing today.
We don’t look so bad in comparison.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

fix:

Response: The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully explained it.

I see this as a tap dance around what the Church in fact taught, prior to Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, the Church taught that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This meant Protestants, who rejected the true Church, would not be saved.

Jim

 

[fix]

This is actually a tap dance around what the Church in fact taught, prior to Vatican II.

Jim

You mean you accent what you think was taught. We all know poor catechesis is not just happening today, but happend in the past.

I have yet to see where the Church has reversed Herself in any area you claim.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please stay on topic. people. If you wish to discuss side issues please find an existing thread on that topic or start a new one in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

 

[bones_IV]

From

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

Bold is my emphasis.

Prior to Vatican II, this would have been heretical for a Catholic to believe.

Jim

Then how do you explain this one?

First Question: Did the Second Vatican Council change the Catholic doctrine on the Church?

     ***Response: ***The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully explained it.

This was exactly what John XXIII said at the beginning of the Council1. Paul VI affirmed it2 and commented in the act of promulgating the Constitution Lumen gentium: "There is no better comment to make than to say that this promulgation really changes nothing of the traditional doctrine. What Christ willed, we also will. What was, still is. What the Church has taught down through the centuries, we also teach. In simple terms that which was assumed, is now explicit; that which was uncertain, is now clarified; that which was meditated upon, discussed and sometimes argued over, is now put together in one clear formulation"3. The Bishops repeatedly expressed and fulfilled this intention4.

Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church****Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

 

[JimR-OCDS]

bones_IV

The Second Vatican Council neither changed nor intended to change this doctrine, rather it developed, deepened and more fully explained it.

“It developed” is just another way of saying, it changed.

Any Pre-Vatican II Catholic who is honest enough, will tell you that the Church taught that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, and protestants were not saved.

I’m glad that they "developed the language to explain, that such is not the case.

Anyway, best course for Catholics to take is, unless proven otherwise, everyone is saved. Get out of the “us and them unsaved people,” mentality.

Jim

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Anyway, best course for Catholics to take is, unless proven otherwise, everyone is saved. Get out of the “us and them unsaved people,” mentality.

Then why bother being Catholic? Why bother following the Traditions, Doctrines and Dogmas of the Church? Why bother following the 10 Commandments, reading the Bible, recieving Communion and going to Adoration?
If everyone is saved, then there is no point to being a Catholic at all. Let’s all just be what we want, and do what we want, because we are all going to heaven anyway.

 

[bones_IV]

bones_IV “It developed” is just another way of saying, it changed.
Jim

Jim, stop pretending to be an expert in theology when you are obviously not. You are obviously not Catholic! Your blathering about “everyone is saved” makes you Protestant in every sense of the word.

 

[THurifer2]

From

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

Bold is my emphasis.

Prior to Vatican II, this would have been heretical for a Catholic to believe.

Jim

Jim, I have one thing to say…TICK TOCK- TICK TOCK- TICK TOCK…

 

[bones_IV]

Jim, I have one thing to say…TICK TOCK- TICK TOCK- TICK TOCK…

ROFTL…

 

[dbacks5439]

bones_IV

“It developed” is just another way of saying, it changed.

Any Pre-Vatican II Catholic who is honest enough, will tell you that the Church taught that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, and protestants were not saved.

I’m glad that they "developed the language to explain, that such is not the case.

Anyway, best course for Catholics to take is, unless proven otherwise, everyone is saved. Get out of the “us and them unsaved people,” mentality.

Jim

You never give documentation from Vat. II. Yes, you give documentation outside Vat. II, but poorly interpreted. Until you give documentation that Vat. II says that salvation is assured for all, we will assume that you started your own church and made yourself the “leader” of this organization that is based on nothing but hearsay and opinion.

 

[palmas85]

I see this as a tap dance around what the Church in fact taught, prior to Vatican II. Prior to Vatican II, the Church taught that there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This meant Protestants, who rejected the true Church, would not be saved.

Jim

Actually, as I remember it, the Church said there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church **BUT **that those outside of the Church could be saved under certain circumstances. I remember the illustrations in the Baltimore Catechism of an ark floating on the water with two lifelines hanging off of it into the water so that those trapped in the seas of ignorance could grab on and be saved.

Simple illustration but one that made sense to me then and now.

And I went through those books well before Vatican II.

 

[Dauphin]

From

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

Bold is my emphasis.

Prior to Vatican II, this would have been heretical for a Catholic to believe.

Jim

You’re wrong. If this were the case, the church would be in a state of rupture. What is once seen as heresy cannot all of a sudden be adopted by the church. As St. Augustine said - if our faith is not identical with that of the ancients, we have dissolved the unity of the church.

It’s good to know that we have a Pope who understands that the Second Vatican Council was not a rupture with the past. This “new church” thinking is exactly what’s lead to the decline we’ve seen over the last 40 years.

 

[Metaron]

Salvation only comes through the Church. The only was people are saved ‘outside’ is because they are unknowingly latching on to the inherent truths of Catholicism in Protestantism, and, therefore, are implicit members of the Catholic Church.

 

[Shoshana]

Actually, as I remember it, the Church said there was no salvation outside of the Catholic Church **BUT **that those outside of the Church could be saved under certain circumstances. I remember the illustrations in the Baltimore Catechism of an ark floating on the water with two lifelines hanging off of it into the water so that those trapped in the seas of ignorance could grab on and be saved.

Simple illustration but one that made sense to me then and now.

And I went through those books well before Vatican II.

As I understand it, the CC has the direct line to heaven with all of its sacraments…we have it all, the fullness of Truth. The others have a ‘chance’ of entering heaven, if the conditions are met. But, what confuses me is that those protestant/evangelicals who are ex-Catholics, well, I guess I will have to leave it to God. But my brother is obstinate in believing it doesn’t matter what church you belong to. He even declares that he is a threat to the CC! As many ex-catholics are the most rabid anti-catholics!