End of times - signs

[RPRPsych]

All nations doesn’t mean every individual person. For all practical purposes the gospel was preached to all nations, including the Muslim ones since they all used to be Christian nations. We were moving forward for about the first 1,000 years of Christendom in preaching the word to all nations. We reached a peak. And since then we have been in a dramatic decline where now just about every nation on earth that used to consider itself to be a Christian nation has now officially apostatized both in government and in popular culture. The same countries that used to be Christian have now embraced abortion, homosexual behavior, and atheism. This leads us to Jesus asking about the world in the End Times, “when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?”.

I agree with all the above. But Matthew 24: 14 is a difficult passage to use in an “end times” scenario, because it is followed by:
Matthew 24: 15-22:

When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains:
And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house:
And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat.
And woe to them that are with child and that give suck in those days.
But pray that your flight be not in the winter or on the sabbath.
For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be.
And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.

Pope Benedict XVI, in Jesus of Nazareth, vol. 2, convincingly demonstrates that the above passage refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. And even the passage after this (Matthew 24: 29-31), often cited as an “end of the world” prophecy, can be viewed as referring to the establishment of the messianic age (the Church). This would fit in well with your view of “1000 years of growth, then decline” - the rest of the story is told in Revelation. Biblical scholars who share this view include Dom. Bernard Orchard and Pere Lagrange - both orthodox, pre-Vatican II Catholic exegetes.

 

[livingwordunity]

I agree with all the above. But Matthew 24: 14 is a difficult passage to use in an “end times” scenario, because it is followed by:

Pope Benedict XVI, in Jesus of Nazareth, vol. 2, convincingly demonstrates that the above passage refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. And even the passage after this (Matthew 24: 29-31), often cited as an “end of the world” prophecy, can be viewed as referring to the establishment of the messianic age (the Church). This would fit in well with your view of “1000 years of growth, then decline” - the rest of the story is told in Revelation. Biblical scholars who share this view include Dom. Bernard Orchard and Pere Lagrange - both orthodox, pre-Vatican II Catholic exegetes.

I agree with you. But I believe that the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, besides being a historical event, is also a symbolic representation for the world’s destruction. That would explain why the New Testament authors often appear to go back and forth between talking about the destruction of the Temple and talking about the events at the end of time. And I think that the number 1,000 can be symbolic of perfection so that the historical 1,000 years of exponential growth the Church had can symbolize Christ reigning forever with the Kingdom after He returns.

 

[RPRPsych]

I agree with you. But I believe that the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, besides being a historical event, is also a symbolic representation for the world’s destruction.

Absolutely. Scripture has an “anagogical” meaning besides its literal sense.

That would explain why the New Testament authors appear to go back and forth between talking about the destruction of the Temple and the events at the end of time.

Again, well observed.

And I think that the number 1,000 can be symbolic of perfection so that the historical 1,000 years of growth the Church had can symbolize Christ reigning forever with the Kingdom after He returns.

We’re coming uncomfortably close to a millennial (chiliastic) worldview here , but let me just take this a little further:

The Church was under the Roman Empire until the latter collapsed (c. 476 AD, though the end began long before this).

The Church “wandered in the desert” between empires, until the Holy Roman Empire.

Said Empire began to fragment decisively during the Reformation (starting 1517 AD.)

From 476 to 1517 is 1,041 years - close enough to a thousand.

(If we take 70 AD - the fall of Jerusalem - as our starting point, and count roughly 1,000 years, this doesn’t work: we end up with 1,070 AD, when the Church was still at her peak.)
Revelation 20:7:

And when the thousand years shall be finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall go forth and seduce the nations which are over the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog: and shall gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In Ezekiel, Gog was from the land of Magog. Revelation puts an important twist on this; St. John speaks of “the nations…Gog and Magog”.

This means we must look for a symbolic interpretation of the terms, and not “Gog=Iraq, Magog = Russia”.

To me (and again, this is just one nerd’s private interpretation), the two stand for the factors that caused the collapse of Christendom: Christian heresies (Protestantism and Islam - I’m following Belloc’s view that Islam is best understood as a Christian heresy) and godlessness / secularism (the Enlightenment, Church/State separation, modern “liberalism”). Which one is Gog, and which is Magog, I leave to the reader to figure out.

Right now, heresy and godlessness are certainly “encompassing the camp of the saints and the beloved city” (Revelation 20:8) - the “camp” and the “city” could be Hebrew parallelism referring to the same thing, namely, the Catholic Church.

Victory is assured (Revelation 20: 9), but it will certainly come at a high cost. The “last days” may not be in your lifetime or mine, but we have seen the enemies, and we know what they want to do.

 

[TimothyH]

The end of times came for me when i said ‘I Do’ lol

I swore, I would love you till the end of time…
And now I’m praying for the end of time
to hurry up and arrive.
Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don’t think that I could really survive.
I’ll never break my promise or forget my vow
but God only knows what I could do right now.
So I’m praying for the end of time
It’s all that I can do… ooo… ooo!
Praying for the end of time
so I can end… my… time… with… you.

• Meat Loaf

-Tim-

 

[RPRPsych]

I swore, I would love you till the end of time…
And now I’m praying for the end of time
to hurry up and arrive.
Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don’t think that I could really survive.
I’ll never break my promise or forget my vow
but God only knows what I could do right now.
So I’m praying for the end of time
It’s all that I can do… ooo… ooo!
Praying for the end of time
so I can end… my… time… with… you.

• Meat Loaf

-Tim-

Apocalypse now!

 

[mikekle]

I agree with all the above. But Matthew 24: 14 is a difficult passage to use in an “end times” scenario, because it is followed by:

Pope Benedict XVI, in Jesus of Nazareth, vol. 2, convincingly demonstrates that the above passage refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. And even the passage after this (Matthew 24: 29-31), often cited as an “end of the world” prophecy, can be viewed as referring to the establishment of the messianic age (the Church). This would fit in well with your view of “1000 years of growth, then decline” - the rest of the story is told in Revelation. Biblical scholars who share this view include Dom. Bernard Orchard and Pere Lagrange - both orthodox, pre-Vatican II Catholic exegetes.

I would not be surprised if at some point in the near future, some nation, such as Iran, North korea, etc may destroy Israel. They all admit this is their strongest desire, so it should come as no surprise when one of them actually accomplishes this.

But the bible also says the temple will have to be rebuilt on the location of Islams most holy spot, so I dont see this happening any time soon, in fact I doubt ANYONE could even begin construction on it, Muslims would never allow it, it would be a constant war zone.

I do believe we are in the end time and getting close to Jesus return, while I wont go into detail on this thread, I have in the past on other ones…but I believe the US is modern day Babylon, and God will destroy it in 3 days. If you look at all the verses that describe what nation ‘modern day Babylon’ will be, it is VERY clear, it can ONLY be the US, there is no other nation currently on the planet that fits the descriptions.

 

[Nelka]

I would not be surprised if at some point in the near future, some nation, such as Iran, North korea, etc may destroy Israel. They all admit this is their strongest desire, so it should come as no surprise when one of them actually accomplishes this.

Israel won’t be destroyed as there are things that must happen there.

I do believe we are in the end time and getting close to Jesus return, while I wont go into detail on this thread, I have in the past on other ones…but I believe the US is modern day Babylon, and God will destroy it in 3 days. If you look at all the verses that describe what nation ‘modern day Babylon’ will be, it is VERY clear, it can ONLY be the US, there is no other nation currently on the planet that fits the descriptions.

Sorry but America is not Babylon and it doesn’t fit the description.

 

[RPRPsych]

Israel won’t be destroyed as there are things that must happen there.

Agreed. If Christ’s Ascension took place in Israel, and if the angel said “He will return in the same way as He ascended”, we have to accept this as true.

Sorry but America is not Babylon and it doesn’t fit the description.

America is not Babylon. Neither is the EU, Russia, the UN or the modern country (Iraq) that occupies Babylonian soil.

Babylon is the pagan Roman Empire. Both ancient and modern Catholic exegetes agree on this.

 

[livingwordunity]

America is not Babylon. Neither is the EU, Russia, the UN or the modern country (Iraq) that occupies Babylonian soil.

Babylon is the pagan Roman Empire. Both ancient and modern Catholic exegetes agree on this.

In my Ignatius Study Bible, they have a whole essay in the commentary about Babylon in the book of Revelation and who this represents. They say that some say it was pagan Rome while others say that it represented first century Jerusalem. The commentary first gives the arguments for and against it being pagan Rome. And then they give the arguments for and against it being first century Jerusalem. But then they say, “…even if John intended us to think first and foremost of Jerusalem, God’s judgment serves as a warning to any and every city thereafter that would choose to turn against the Lord and his disciples…We must not restrict the meaning of apocalyptic events to exclude later historical applications. Revelation’s theological message is a timeless message, and its pastoral application is one of perennial relevance. It was as meaningful in the first century as in every century since, even to the end of time.” (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

In other words, America is not excluded as a possible candidate for being the End Times Babylon.

Disclaimer: I typed the above quote manually directly from the physical book that I had in my lap. Since I didn’t copy and paste it I could have mistyped something.

 

[po18guy]

For the past 100 generations or so, the “end times” have been a particular individual’s last breath.

 

[RPRPsych]

In my Ignatius Study Bible, they have a whole essay in the commentary about Babylon in the book of Revelation and who this represents. They say that some say it was pagan Rome while others say that it represented first century Jerusalem. The commentary first gives the arguments for and against it being pagan Rome. And then they give the arguments for and against it being first century Jerusalem. But then they say, “…even if John intended us to think first and foremost of Jerusalem, God’s judgment serves as a warning to any and every city thereafter that would choose to turn against the Lord and his disciples…We must not restrict the meaning of apocalyptic events to exclude later historical applications. Revelation’s theological message is a timeless message, and its pastoral application is one of perennial relevance. It was as meaningful in the first century as in every century since, even to the end of time.” (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

In other words, America is not excluded as a possible candidate for being the End Times Babylon.

Disclaimer: I typed the above quote manually directly from the physical book that I had in my lap. Since I didn’t copy and paste it I could have mistyped something.

I agree with that passage from the Ignatius Bible (I have a copy of it, too!)

But one could argue that this applies to every empire that has turned corrupt and anti-Christian over time; not just America.

 

[livingwordunity]

For the past 100 generations or so, the “end times” have been a particular individual’s last breath.

That is one of the two aspects of it.

 

[onemangang]

Here is a good study on the end times from a Catholic perspective.
It is multiple video’s long, so it may take some time to get through it, but never the less, very informative

youtu.be/-gP3o6l8Fm8

Hope this helps ,

God bless!

 

[Nelka]

Jerusalem as the Whore.

Ezekiel 16
Jeremiah 4
Jeremiah 13
Isaiah 1
Revelation.

 

[RPRPsych]

Jerusalem as the Whore.

Ezekiel 16
Jeremiah 4
Jeremiah 13
Isaiah 1
Revelation.

I like the way you’re thinking - though I like monkeying around with historicism out of sheer intellectual curiosity, preterism is my “secure base”.

To which we might add: the entire Book of Hosea (which ties in to Christ’s “weep not for me” in Luke’s Passion narrative, Luke 23) and Jeremiah 31 (“how long will you rebel, faithless daughter?..the Woman sets out to find her Husband again”.)

 

[Nelka]

I like the way you’re thinking - though I like monkeying around with historicism out of sheer intellectual curiosity, preterism is my “secure base”.

To which we might add: the entire Book of Hosea (which ties in to Christ’s “weep not for me” in Luke’s Passion narrative, Luke 23) and Jeremiah 31 (“how long will you rebel, faithless daughter?..the Woman sets out to find her Husband again”.)

I don’t know how people can be preterists.

Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great distress, unparalleled since the world began, and such as will never be again. And if that time had not been shortened, no human being would have survived; but shortened that time shall be, for the sake of those who are chosen.

This passage shows that nothing in the past equates to this, not even the second world war. Something bad is coming. This passage has nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

I understand that some stuff has gone of course but much is still to come.

 

[RPRPsych]

I don’t know how people can be preterists.

Preterism comes in many flavours.

To claim that everything has been fulfilled is “unorthodox” preterism, and the Church has never backed that.

However, “partial preterism” is a tenable position.

Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great distress, unparalleled since the world began, and such as will never be again. And if that time had not been shortened, no human being would have survived; but shortened that time shall be, for the sake of those who are chosen.

This passage shows that nothing in the past equates to this, not even the second world war. Something bad is coming. This passage has nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

Pope Benedict XVI, reflecting on this passage (Jesus of Nazareth, vol. 2) still feels that Jerusalem and AD 70 fits: a long and violent siege, plague, famine, cannibalism, mass murder (some estimates have over 5,00,000 dead - the “lower bound” is 80,000), and the destruction of Second Temple Judaism. But, of course, he wasn’t teaching infallibly.

I understand that some stuff has gone of course but much is still to come.

True. I think orthodox (partial) Preterism is more a rejection of the “millennium” and “rapture” than a rejection of all historicism.

 

[livingwordunity]

I agree with that passage from the Ignatius Bible (I have a copy of it, too!)

But one could argue that this applies to every empire that has turned corrupt and anti-Christian over time; not just America.

Despite a bad economy, America is probably the most powerful nation on earth at this time in history partly because of its military strength and partly because most of the mainstream media that gets exported around the globe seems to be American such as news and popular films out of Hollywood. So, America not only has great military might but also the power of global propaganda. And this is the time in history when so-called same-sex “marriage” and legal so-called “abortion rights” went global, especially after America recently began aggressively promoting it around the world.

 

[mikekle]

Preterism comes in many flavours.

To claim that everything has been fulfilled is “unorthodox” preterism, and the Church has never backed that.

However, “partial preterism” is a tenable position.

Pope Benedict XVI, reflecting on this passage (Jesus of Nazareth, vol. 2) still feels that Jerusalem and AD 70 fits: a long and violent siege, plague, famine, cannibalism, mass murder (some estimates have over 5,00,000 dead - the “lower bound” is 80,000), and the destruction of Second Temple Judaism. But, of course, he wasn’t teaching infallibly.

True. I think orthodox (partial) Preterism is more a rejection of the “millennium” and “rapture” than a rejection of all historicism.

I think the same thing…something really bad is coming our way, but what I do not understand is the comment about the days being shortened or people would not survive if the days were the same length…??

Why would people have a better chance of survival by there being less hours in the day? Plus, Im not even sure HOW this would be accomplished…how could God shorten a days length?

 

[mikekle]

Here are a few biblical hints about the whore…(There are many many more, but this is just a short list) What other nation could this possibly be? There is NO other nation on the planet that fits these descriptions. IMO, it is VERY clear this is the US…

1. End-times Babylon is a great nation that receives judgment for its many sins.

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Rev. 18:2)

1. This nation is a superpower and has world dominance and importance. It has also spread its corruption to the world.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her. (Rev. 18:3)

1. The merchants of the world are made rich through trading with this nation. This nation consumes huge amounts of goods.

And the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. (Rev. 18:3)

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. (Rev. 18:11–13)

1. This nation is proud and arrogant and considers herself to be invincible and the greatest nation on earth.

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. (Rev. 18:7)

1. This nation is typified by an extravagant lifestyle.

And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! (Rev. 18:16)

1. Other nations are controlled by her and given great riches by her.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her. (Rev. 18:9)

1. This nation is a coastal nation, with deepwater ports and much international trade.

And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off. (Rev. 18:17)

1. This nation has defenses in the heavens.