End Times: "Left Behind" and other misguided conceptions

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Kathy Perry:
Jesus said, "I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE. So we must seek the TRUTH. Filling our head, (or someone elses) with fiction is NOT the way to to Jesus. Left Behind is pure FICTION and very harmfull to Christianity. But the books, tapes etc, makes the fellows who wrote them very rich and thats what they wanted. The devil works in many ways to put across his lies. Jesus told us he is the FATHER OF LIES.
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So you actually think there is not at least one person out there in this huge world of ours that read those books and decided to explore Christianity - the real thing - a little more. And, if that is true, then the books did bring someone to the Jesus, and show them the truth and the life. It may be pure fiction but if you have never in your life been exposed to the general (and I use even that term loosely) idea of what will happen to your soul if the world should end, maybe reading a passage or two of Scripture might steer you toward a desire for it - maybe even steer you to a Catholic church! And one argument I have heard a LOT - and I just don’t think holds much water - is this thing about the authors writing the books just to make money. You say this with such fervor - it makes me wonder - do ALL Catholic authors give their proceeds directly to the church? How do you know what the authors did with their proceeds. They may have given 90% of it to starving children or to the homeless. I would be willing to bet there are just as many Catholic authors out there making a pretty penny on books they wrote. In fact, while searching for a site like this, I happened on another one that purported to answer my questions about Catholicism but every time I clicked a link it just led me to a Catholic author’s book I would have to buy in order to get the answers I sought. :confused:
 
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nicthepresby:
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  • And that leads me to another question, where, in the Bible - whichever one you would like to quote, does it reserve the right of Holy Communion to Catholics? Please don’t take my questions offensively - these are just things I am very curious about. I attended my first Mass on Palm Sunday. It was not at all what Ii expected and I did not know I would not be able to receive Communion. Had I known that, I would have gone to a protestant church. I was very dissapointed and felt quite excluded - as if I were not a “good enough” Christian to receive the body and blood of my Lord. I just can’t grasp the notion that Jesus would discriminate between anyone who wished to receive Communion and believed that, in doing so, they were taking into themselves the body and blood of Christ. But I had to sit down and watch everyone do it. It actually kind of hurt! I would just like to know where all these “privileges” (not being a smart alek - just couldn’t think of another word) are granted to Catholics only in the Bible. :)*
1 Cor 11: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

Allowing non-Catholics to receive the Body of Our Lord, when they believe it to be ONLY symbolic bread, would be far beyond uncharitable. Damnation seems to be such a permanent condition.

Nick, can you explain how someone can eat and drink themselves into damnation by unworthily receiving a Presbyterian communion?

BTW, it’s not for “Catholics only”, as you say. Our brothers in Eastern Orthodox churches have shared this faith for almost 2000 years, and the Eucharist celebrated in EO churches is quite valid, as well.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
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nicthepresby:
I would be willing to bet there are just as many Catholic authors out there making a pretty penny on books they wrote. In fact, while searching for a site like this, I happened on another one that purported to answer my questions about Catholicism but every time I clicked a link it just led me to a Catholic author’s book I would have to buy in order to get the answers I sought. :confused:
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I agree. I am a cradle catholic myself but in the past 5-6 years I have noticed this trend too. But I guarantee you this, if you go to this site christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html, which is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, you will find a wealth of knowlegde and explanation of just what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. I know, I know, this doesn’t contain any witty dialogue and it’s definitely not an “easy” read, but this is the foundational reference of just about all apologetic authors that are out there. Keep searching Nic, it’s worth it…
 
I have read every book suggested so far.

For catholics, the most comprehensive tome on the concept of a secret rapture is in Dave Currie’s book “Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind” . It studies Daniel, the olivet discourse and the Apocalypse (Revelation) from an historical perspective. It is extremely well researched. Scott Hahn seems to approve of it since he wrote the forward.

For protestatns, a book by David Chilton, “The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation” is very good. His ananalyis has pretty much the same conclusions as David Currie’s book. He even allows the book to be downloaded from a website free of charge.

As far as what protestants believe, just in the last several months I have seen every possible interpretation. LaHaye is not universally respected in protestant circles.

I spent about an hour going over the Olivet Discourse with my mother this last weekend. She was amazed at how insightful it was. She is a good Catholic, but has always been taught that the promise that “Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place” (Matt 24:34) was some kind of mistake. She had never once been told about its relevence to the fall of the temple in March - August 70 AD.

For Catholics, I recommend studying the bible thoroughly and participating in bible studies with protestants. Many are surprised at how well reasoned the catholic positions are.

Pax Christi
 
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nicthepresby:
So you actually think there is not at least one person out there in this huge world of ours that read those books and decided to explore Christianity - the real thing - a little more. And, if that is true, then the books did bring someone to the Jesus, and show them the truth and the life. It may be pure fiction but if you have never in your life been exposed to the general (and I use even that term loosely) idea of what will happen to your soul if the world should end, maybe reading a passage or two of Scripture might steer you toward a desire for it - maybe even steer you to a Catholic church! And one argument I have heard a LOT - and I just don’t think holds much water - is this thing about the authors writing the books just to make money. You say this with such fervor - it makes me wonder - do ALL Catholic authors give their proceeds directly to the church? How do you know what the authors did with their proceeds. They may have given 90% of it to starving children or to the homeless. I would be willing to bet there are just as many Catholic authors out there making a pretty penny on books they wrote. In fact, while searching for a site like this, I happened on another one that purported to answer my questions about Catholicism but every time I clicked a link it just led me to a Catholic author’s book I would have to buy in order to get the answers I sought. :confused:
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Sorta like feeding a starving person garbage and hoping he would learn to eat real food. Why not the truth first and hope he learns to sort out errors when he sees them? Just ment they are making lots of money off their errors and innocent people suffer and they DON"T CARE.
 
Millennium

Hello
Part of the current End Time talk is about the Millennium. (This is a period of 1000 years , during which Jesus will rule on Earth.) The Catholic Apologists i have heard who talk on this subject all say this is a mistaken idea. Yet the Early Fathers who speak of it at all seem to say that they expect this Millennium . Does any one out there know the story about this ? Has the Church ever ruled on this?
Thanks
John
 
Nic,
I appreciate your sincerity and in no way do I think you are being out of line with your questions. They are valid questions and don’t have easy answers.
I will try to be as brief as I can be and maybe you can ask one question and we can try to answer it. The more questions, the longer the answers become.
The Catholic faith was around before the bible. The bible was brought together in order to support the early christian beliefs. The bible was never intended to be the sole rule of Christianity. It is a substantial part of it, but not the entire thing. The oral traditions (divine traditions mind you) make up as much a part of Catholicism as the written scripture. That is why not everything the Catholic faith does is in the bible. Everything can be supported by the bible, but they are not clearly defined in it. The bible was never intended for this, it was the job of the early church leaders to define the proper teachings (both oral and written.) Just as it is the job of the current Catholic Church leaders to preserve those teachings today.
If the bible was meant to be the only rule by which Christianity was to follow, how was everyone supposed to get a copy? The printing press wasn’t even discovered until the 1500’s. Before that it had to be hand written and not everyone could read and write back then. The job of interpreting scripture fell to the teachers back then as it still does today and will continue to do tomorrow regardless of the latest inventions of the current time.
How can all of the religions around the world follow the same God? The Old Testament was crystal clear as to the fact that there was only one God and one chosen people. Islam also professes one God as does Christianity. Christians say to love everyone, Islam says to kill everyone who isn’t muslim. Budhists say to serve yourself through meditation and mind focusing. JW’s and Mormon’s are really way out there on their interpretation of life. God is constant and his rules today are the same as they were when Jesus passed his knowledge to the apostles. I wish all you had to do was be a good person and you would get to heaven, but the bible is pretty clear on the fact that the road to heaven is very difficult and not many will make it.

Nic, I would like to reiterate your words back to you. I am not trying to be mean or condescending nor judgmental. I am trying to explain the Catholic faith and in no way am I trying to offend or judge you. It is simply a conversation about differing points of view. I look forward to your response and wish you the best.

Very Respectfully,
pkmksk.
🙂
 
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nicthepresby:
There are so many Catholics and Catholic commentators and Catholic “experts” who criticize these books because they are anti-Catholic. To me, the books are PRO-CHRISTIAN.
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Yeah right. Pro-Chirstian except Catholicism, cause they’re not Christian.
How are you going to get someone to be a Catholic if they do not first accept the very basic things about Christianity - like the validity of the Bible, the reality of Jesus as the son of God, the reality of the crucifixion of Christ and the importance of becoming a Christian in order to have everlasting life?
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Which is better, starting with a clean scratch paper or starting with a paper full of crayons drawings?
 
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nicthepresby:
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No. While the Catholic Church teaches that “There is no Salvation Outside the Church,” we also believe that those who follow God, to the best of their consciences, are somehow united mystically to the Church, and by virtue of this union can be saved. However, good works by themselves won’t get anyone to heaven. If Hindu leads a so-called “holy life,” like you mentioned, but made no serious search for the true religion, and if he is personally at fault for not accepting the true religion (i.e. Catholic Christianity), then he will not be saved. Of course, only God can judge the heart.

So, are you saying that, as a Catholic, it is your belief that only Catholic Christians are guaranteed salvation? In other words, I may not have salvation because I am a Presbetryian Christian?
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If you are invincible ignorance, lead a good life, search God sincerely and die in the state of grace then you will probably be joined in your death with the Catholic Church, because there’s no salvation outside the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Saint Augustine – Sermon to the People of Caesaria)
 
Greetings fellow Preterist. I was reading the above posts hoping against hope that there were some of “us” reading these “end time” posts vs.“time of the end” posts. You have saved me from having to expound, as another voice in the wilderness, a time of the end scenario which has been around-if you want to accept it, since the latter new testament writings. I am a fan of Gary DeMar’s partial reterist beliefs, which echo many Presby Postmilennial beliefs, but there were still some questions I had which, like Hal Lindsey’s Premilennial Dispensationalism, didn’t seem to quite fit what I read in ye Bible such as you have mentioned, “ALL these things will happen to THIS generation…etc”. That’s when I took a chance and plugged “Preterism” into Google and came up with myriads of webbies expounding on the issue… I read Chilton who was first a partial preterist, and became a Full pret, as I am now, even within Catholicism, which has historically been Amillennial in outlook(without condemning other views other than stating that Premil Dispensationalism is not appropriate to be taught within the Church). I didn’t kinow Scott Hahn was Preterist, although I have read his conversion story. In fact, I was going to ask his take on Preterism. Now I probably don’t need to. I was going to voice my concern to him concerning a crucial problem for the Church over such things as the Creeds apparent ignorance of the subject and the utter lack of documentation after AD 70 from any surviving Christians (at Pella) Rome, or anywhere else concerning Preterist beliefs (assuming that Paul, Jesus and the Apostles taught from a Preterist perspective. I am still looking for an adequate answer to that. But this is all drivel to non-Preterists. If, however, the Preterist scenario is the correct one, a real paradigm shift would have to take place within the Church which would leave the same question for the Magisterium to have to answer, ie: why the silence of AD70 to 150? If any of you have some hints here, pls. contact me thru this forum or at rhraba@comcast.net, and for the squadrillions of you who never heard of Preterism, check it out because I believe there is a chance that Preterism is to 21st century Christianity what Luther was to 14th century Catholicism, ie: a real boatrocker. And it would be in the Church’s best interest to engage the issue now, while Preterism is still in it’s relative infancy as apopular belief, much as Premillennial Dispensationalism was before Hal Lindsey popularized it in the 70’s for my generation. Scofield did it for conservative Protestants, who used his version of the Bible, but EVERYBODY read Lindsey ,.and soon thereafter, all one saw on t.v.(and still do) were Premil Dispos expounding on the Rapture, The Trib, Armageddon, and the Great White Throne Judgement in our future rather than where the Bible very plainly says it happened, back in 70 ad or thereabouts. (Oh yes it does, yea verily, shout H) Sorry, it’s the evangelist in me breaking forth.
 
I watched Tim LeHaye (sp?) being interviewed the day his last book came out.

He first told the reporter his book was a work of fiction.
Later in the interview he told her it was “the truth”
Hmm…which is it? Reminds me a bit of the problems with The DaVinci Code.

Is it good if it causes people to believe in Jesus?
No…because Jesus is Truth. This teaching is not the truth.
This teaching tells us that a cruel God will pluck millions of people off of the face of the earth instantaneously.
The rest remain to suffer. Some of those left behind will convert - but too bad for them they did a little late didn’t they? If they had just converted a little earlier Jesus would have plucked them up too.

As catholics, are we not taught that we are to imitate Christ?
Did not Christ accept His suffering? Are we not called to accept ours?

So, here we have this strange teaching that causes christians to hang back and wait for the big day. They can feel sorry for the poor folk who won’t be part of the priveleged group - but maybe a bit superior as well?
If you think the rapture is coming at any moment - what is the point in participating as a christian in the world? Why not bide your time until the rapture?
Many believe they will never die. Jack VanImpe has been telling them this every week!! How shocked will people be when they find themselves facing death - just like the rest of humanity has had to face it?

Doesn’t the Church have some sort of guidelines of events that need to occur to let us know if we are in the end times or not?

For ex: I’ve read that first the Temple will be rebuilt, and the driving force behind this endeavor will be the antichrist.
That he will first fool the Jews into believing he is the Messiah, and will sit in the Temple as such.
He will then move on to christianity and fool many christians.
At this point my recall is hazy…somewhere Elijah and Enoch show up?

Anyone have better recall than I do on this?
Isn’t this something that would be good to hear from the altar during homily?
 
Greetings fellow Preterist.
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Hi Bob Hraba 🙂

It’s encouraging to know that there are other Catholic preterists out there! Scott Hahn is a VERY full ‘partial preterist’, like Gary DeMar. Hahn also mentions in his tapes that he would be a full preterist had it not been for the creeds! He was also a good friend of David Chilton.

Anyway, from what I understand, the Catholic Church simply didn’t defined the finer points of the ‘end times’. In other words, the councils didn’t really delve into eschatological matters as deeply as with other doctrines. It didn’t give an authoritative position on what particular interpretation of the end times is absolutely right. The amillennial view seemed to be the popular view at the time.
I was going to voice my concern to him concerning a crucial problem for the Church over such things as the Creeds apparent ignorance of the subject and the utter lack of documentation after AD 70 from any surviving Christians (at Pella) Rome, or anywhere else concerning Preterist beliefs (assuming that Paul, Jesus and the Apostles taught from a Preterist perspective. I am still looking for an adequate answer to that.
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I have to admit the Creeds seem to be what prevents the full preterist ‘heresy’. I call it heresy because nearly every Christian calls full preterist a heresy based on the Creeds. However, I have a belief that the Apostle’s creed was written prior to 70AD. (just a belief, with no real evidence for such)

As for the lack of documentation, there were probably tons of writings that may’ve disappeared due to the burning of the library of Alexandria in 387 AD.

And my guess is that the Christians that fled to Pella may’ve been more concerned about the pragmatic aspects of preterism ( Eucharist - the Real Presence), than documenting exact events on what happened. But then again, it doesn’t really answer your question.

By the way, I used to be a full preterist. I’m no longer for a few simple reasons: I’d be considered a heretic, and full preterism leads to all sorts of questions that I cannot answer.

I prefer to simply be a very full ‘partial preterist’, or I suppose you can say I’m a full preterist who believes in another future coming of Christ (and I have a reason for it: There were several ‘days of yahweh’ in the OT, and so from a typological sense, I believe they can happen again just as St. Peter mentions the ‘day of the lord/yahweh’ (2 Pet 3) which I believe was Christ’s coming in 70AD).

-Jason
 
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beng:
No. There is a rapture. Catholic can believe a rapture. But not the Protestant type.

Listen to the link I gave (It’s an audio link) above.
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Show me where the word Rapture is, in the original translation of the Bible, I don’t think the modern translations are very accurate in many things. I have been a Catholic all my life and read much, and don’t recall EVER reading or hearing of a Catholic Rapture. The Church teaches there WILL be an end to this world and a second Coming of Jesus. I will await that or my end of this world, whichever comes first. I don’t go by someone’s opinion.
 
nicthepresby: I’m a former Evangelical Protestant…I now believe that the Catholic Church is the one Church that Jesus founded (I’m not yet confirmed though). One book that helped me a lot on my journey was Dave Armstrong’s A Biblical Defence of Catholicism…and while you do have to pay for it, I highly recommend it. Plus, if you order the .doc format via email it’s only $6 (or $9 for the delux version). His books are his sole source of income, so I think you can understand that he has to charge some money for his work. (But he also has a lot of free material on his site). Go to ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM.
God bless.
(If you don’t want to dish out $6-$9, I can digitally ‘lend’ you my copy, perhaps…email me at tyler_fehr@hotmail.com if you’re interested).
 
I helped to edit Dr. Paul Thigpen’s “The Rapture Trap”.

It is a solid book and though a bit slow at the beginning, very helpful and simple to read. I am in the midst of reading Carl Olson’s new book, “Will Catholics Be Left Behind?”, and I must say it is very good, and more extensive in research and propositions than Dr. Thigpen’s book. Either way, there is a lot to learn in these two books for anyone wanting to learn more about the end times.

Enjoy.
 
A few years ago while staying with some dear friends who have left the church, I noticed they had all these left behind books.
I started reading the first volume looking to find a good thriller, but I found the book to be dreadful. The movie was just horrible and I know several people who watched the movie and were completely turned off by the religious subject matter.

I find all these movies Left Behind, Omega Code to be horrible and I am sick of all the evil Catholic clergy in these works of fiction.
 
Kathy Perry:
Show me where the word Rapture is, in the original translation of the Bible, I don’t think the modern translations are very accurate in many things. I have been a Catholic all my life and read much, and don’t recall EVER reading or hearing of a Catholic Rapture. The Church teaches there WILL be an end to this world and a second Coming of Jesus. I will await that or my end of this world, whichever comes first. I don’t go by someone’s opinion.
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Read catholic.com section on Rapture.
 
I hope I’m not repeating someone so if I am forgive me.
Concering the “Left Behind” series I look at this very simple way Anyone who gets their theology from a book or books of fiction are doomed to error in their beliefs. This also goes for, “The Davinci Code”.
 
****Everyone, we just have to remember one thing… these are fictional books… :banghead: All of them. These books are in the Fiction section in libraries… (i work in a library)
**We cannot predict what the End Times are going to bring or when they are going to happen. It is all up to God, He can do anything, change anything.:hmmm: **
 
*Left Behind *is really nothing more than a simple-minded fictional rendition of a bizarre eschatology called Dispensational Premillenarianism. Tim LaHaye, who conceived and outlines the books (Jenkins writes them), is a longtime evangelical leader and one of the most prominent advocates of this convoluted, relatively new theological opinion. Left Behind is simply one more attempt to promulgate his views to a doubting world.As Left Behind begins, a slew of airplane passengers suddenly vanish. Reports filter in from all over the globe, indicating that this is not exactly a unique experience. Millions have disappeared, leaving nothing but their clothes. Gosh, what happened?A small group, led by dashing pilot Rayford Steele, his beautiful daughter Chloe, hot young journalist Cameron (Buck) Williams and associate pastor Bruce Barnes quickly unlock the mystery, assisted by a videotape left behind by a forward-looking (now vanished) minister who saw the whole thing coming down – the Rapture.The rest of the series follows the adventures of this crew as they see their past errors, get saved, and then make their way through the Tribulations: earthquakes, plague, war, and, of course…the rise of the Antichrist, one Nicolae Carpathia. Carpathia ascends rapidly from an obscure position in the Romanian government to fulfill the world’s need for leadership in the wake of the Rapture. Within weeks, he’s been elected secretary-general of the U.N.( renamed the “Global Community”), decided to move the headquarters to Iraq – (New Babylon. Get it?), convinced every nation to destroy 90% of its arms and hand over the remainder to him, bought all the major media outlets of the world, and convinced the new Pope to be his right-hand man in abolishing all distinct world religions and forming the “Enigma Babylon One World Faith.” Busy man.So that’s *Left Behind *in a nutshell: Our heroes - the Tribulation Force - keeping the faith, spreading it, and coping with life and love in the Apocalypse. The first volume actually closes with the group in an airport concourse “striding four abreast, arms around each other’s shoulders, knit with a common purpose.” Really.There’s a lot to say about these books, not much of it positive. Eye-catching covers. Flawless marketing. But the writing? The theology? In Left Behind, we’re dealing with cookie-cutter prose (what do you expect when you’re churning out a 450-page book on an average of every eight months?), shallow characterization, and a fair share of unintentional humor:“Hon, do you see no irony in your being offended by the man we’re convinced is the Antichrist?…you expect common courtesy and decency from the most evil man in the history of the universe?” "Chloe astounded him with her ability to run an international company while taking care of a new baby.”
“Whatever joy David and Annie might have had in the first love stage of their relationship was dampened by the travail of so many…People were dying and going to hell.” Questions of logic bedevil the reader making her way through this magnum opus. How is it, that amid the massive chaos brought on by earthquakes, herds of sulfur-spewing horses galloping through the sky , diminished solar energy, war, and storms of fiery, bloody hailstones, the Tribulation Force is forever getting its hands on super sophisticated gadgetry? Untraceable cel phones, untraceable global internet access, and a never-interrupted gasoline supplies for a never-ending supply of Range Rovers, Lear jets and helicopters are always close at hand. If the Antichrist can hypnotize whole crowds and has an uncanny understanding of everyone he meets, why doesn’t he pick up on the minor detail that his plane and office have been bugged by the Tribulation Force ? If the Antichrist is just that, why don’t either Rayford (eventually Carpathia’s pilot) or Buck (his media honcho for a while)– just kill him during any one of the hundreds of hours they spend with the guy?And why, for heaven’s sake, doesn’t anyone in these books ever actually do anything?
 
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