End times signs for catholics

[findingmyself08]

In this part of the world (Australia) the church gives almost no importance to the end times. The one thing which all Catholics should be yearning for–the second coming of Christ (as a king this time, not as a sacrifice) which will put an end to war, sickness, hatred, evil and death itself–is almost brushed aside. Eschatological concerns tend to disappear in the sacramental haze. The veneration of Mary is almost an obsession. Why else would the Assumption stand alongside Christmas day as the only two non-Sunday Holy Days of Obligation? The second, glorious coming of Christ is a footnote to theology. It gets the briefest mention at Mass–something about “we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.” No we don’t. We don’t wait in “joyful hope” at all. We keep going through the motions of the Mass and the other sacraments, and praying to Mary, as if they are the focus of our existence.

I can’t quite agree with the statement that eschatological concerns are disappearing into the sacramental haze. Mass itself tends to point toward the end of time. Just read the Eucharistic prayer. Mass is also the closest we can come to how we will praise and worship God in heaven. Frankly, the Mass and other sacraments and venerating Mary are part of our existence as Catholics. Sacraments bring us closer to God and tend to lead us to think about eschatological concerns.

The attitude to the second coming is like, “Oh, it will happen one day, but it’s been a long time, don’t you know. It could be another 2000 years, so why worry?” I’ll bet most Catholics have no idea of the prophecies of the Old Testament (Daniel, Ezekiel, etc) because Catholic teachings are so heavily focused on the New Testament. Jesus himself was a major prophet, but his prophecies become lost in a blancmange of sugary statements about forgiveness and love. Sure, those things are important, but they only present one aspect of Jesus. He preached those worthy ideals, but he also had a far more rigorous side, a part of him that had an eye to the future. He spoke of the end times and throwing the rubbish out and keeping the good stuff (okay, those are my words); cutting out your eye if it causes you to sin, giving everything away to the needy. His conditions for salvation were stern and unequivocal.

Actually, in my experience it has been the opposite. More as, “Oh it will happen one day, but it hasn’t happened yet. Be prepared. Keep your mind focused on God. For we do not know the day or the hour it will come. It will come like a thief in the night.” While most Catholics may not be able to tell you who that prophet is, I can almost surely bet you that they have heard their prophecies at some point in their life during the Liturgy of the Word at Mass. And you’re right, Jesus was a prophet (priest, prophet, and king) and sometimes that aspect is downplayed compared to his other roles as priest, savior, and king. But even those “sugary statements” tend to point toward the end of time. It is about preparing ourselves - mind, body, and soul - for the final judgment. And most of those passages about love and forgiveness are not sugar-coated. Jesus did not sugar coat anything - he did not say any of it would be easy.

I’ve heard Catholic priests say things like:
“The kingdom of God is in your heart.”(What, so it’s just a good feeling I have? There’s no second coming?)
“Jesus conquered evil when he died on the cross.” (I mean–what?? Conquered evil? Gosh, there must be no more evil anywhere in the world.)
“Every Eucharist is the return of Christ among us” (So celebrating the Eucharist gives us an excuse to ignore the prophecies of the second coming?)

Honestly, I am sick to death of these meaningless platitudes and feel-good statements. I call it a blancmange because it looks good but has no substance. It’s as if (to me) the church has lost much of its purpose. Nobody wants to confront difficult ideas any more because the dwindling parishioners might be frightened.

The things you’ve heard Catholic priests say (other than the first one, not sure about that one) are things I would expect a priest to say. But not with the same sentiment that you assume. We’ll look at the last two statements:

“Jesus conquered evil when he died on the cross.” You take this to mean that because of Jesus’ death, there is no evil in the world. This is obviously not true as there is much evil in the world. BUT what is possibly meant is that Jesus has conquered death by creating a way for us to obtain salvation. Because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we no longer defeated by death itself - we can now have eternal life with God in heaven if we choose to do so.

“Every Eucharist is the return of Christ among us.” I do not think this statement has anything to do with ignoring the second coming of Christ. The Eucharist IS a return of Christ among us because it is not only for praise and thanksgiving of God and his wonderful works, it is also a remembrance of Jesus’ sacrifice for us. So, once again, it actually points to the end of time.

But you are right in a sense, although this has been around for most of human history - people are afraid of the truth and of difficult ideas. Why? Because they are difficult. They are difficult to understand, difficult to deal with, and difficult to believe (at times). But Jesus (as you have pointed out) never said faith would be easy. In most cases, he has said the opposite - it will be hard. And fear also drives people from thinking about these things because it makes them question their own mortality. Because despite wanting to be with God in heaven, we all have to realize that in order to do so, we must die. To me, that would be hard for people to accept and that is why I think most parishioners would prefer to avoid or ignore eschatological concerns.

 

[findingmyself08]

I do accept the idea that all my grandparents and my father are dust in the ground, awaiting resurrection (and not currently in heaven or anywhere else).

That’s yet another point of difference between myself and the church in which I was raised.

The belief that your family members are just dust in the ground awaiting resurrection tends toward the Jewish belief in Sheol. It was a place where souls (really shades - shadows of the people they once were) would sink.

I guess based on that observation, where do you understand the souls of your loved ones to be?

 

[findingmyself08]

The Rapture doctrine is promoted so fervently because it calms the fears of those who are terrified of actually having to stand up for their faith. It is the universal “get out of Hell on Earth free” card. They are sure that the apocalypse is right around the corner, and they DO NOT want to have to deal with it, it’s “bye bye suckers, see ya later, I’m Raptured!”.

Is the Tribulation coming? Yes it is.
Will it be soon? Define soon. St. Mary has been hinting at it for centuries.
Will there be a Rapture? No. It is bad, empty doctrine, always has been.

The only problem I have with this is that the rapture was never a doctrine/dogma/etc in the Catholic Church (and never will be). But I do agree that people would rather believe in that than believe that they may have to suffer. Because who would want to be in pain? Just another example of people trying to make faith easy when it takes work and persistence.

On an individual scale, when ANY PERSON DIES it is the “end of the world” for them.

Hahaha. This made me laugh. Reminds me of the song “Everybody Wants to Go to Heaven, But Nobody Wants to Die.”

 

[GEddie]

Still, it would be nice to have like a Two-Minute warning; you know, like in pro football?

Not much good. You can’t even get thee to the confessional in that time. And if you did, Padre most likely would not be there.

The only “warning” anybody is likely to get will be when we wake up and can’t breathe.

Me, I have no fear of the end time at all. If I do not face the end time, I will certainly face natural death. And that is certain to be an even less comfortable experience.

Bring on the end times I say! I want to leap alive into our LORD’s arms!!!

ICXC NIKA

 

[Seamus_L]

For every Evangelical Protestant who can’t get enough End Times prophecy, there’s never a shortage of people who have a real phobia about the subject and who will constantly attempt to divert the topic in another direction. Personally, while I want no part of date setting, I do find it morbidly interesting if someone want’s to create a well thought out scenario of how nation turning against nation might play out, or where the earthquakes, and famines might occur, or how religious persecution may come about, I’m more than willing to listen.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Not much good. You can’t even get thee to the confessional in that time. And if you did, Padre most likely would not be there.

The only “warning” anybody is likely to get will be when we wake up and can’t breathe.

Me, I have no fear of the end time at all. If I do not face the end time, I will certainly face natural death. And that is certain to be an even less comfortable experience.

Bring on the end times I say! I want to leap alive into our LORD’s arms!!!

ICXC NIKA

It was a joke, Eddie.

 

[Nan_S]

For every Evangelical Protestant who can’t get enough End Times prophecy, there’s never a shortage of people who have a real phobia about the subject and who will constantly attempt to divert the topic in another direction. Personally, while I want no part of date setting, I do find it morbidly interesting if someone want’s to create a well thought out scenario of how nation turning against nation might play out, or where the earthquakes, and famines might occur, or how religious persecution may come about, I’m more than willing to listen.

I’m not interested in any of the above, because I’m interested in much more immediate concerns. Concerns like the large metal object which flew off the truck beside me when I was driving at 60 mph on the interstate and came within six inches of striking my windshield, and probably killing me. (It damaged the side of the car.)

The roadways are dangerous places. But if I am in good standing with the Lord each and every time I approach an on-ramp, I need not fear a rapture which shows no signs of happening today. I’ll let others worry about an apocalypse which has been coming “any day now” for over 2,000 years.

 

[ValPal]

That’s perceiving something through a filter though. It’s the same with any prophecy. Since prophetic language tends to be poetic and highly metaphorical, you can make it apply to anything. That’s why Nostradamus is still known, and for some reason, taken seriously.

I understand all this.

I just find it interesting to compare these prophecies to the current world. For example, a worldwide economic collapse simply could not have happened centuries ago. However, now with the many major economic powers (including the U.S.) beyond the historic debt/GDP ratios at which point there is no possibility of recovery without major pain, and the fact the U.S. dollar is the de facto currency, it’s a very real possibility.

 

[Seamus_L]

If Our Saviour never wanted us to talk about such things, he wouldn’t have told us about nation turning against nation, famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places, etc. But he did.

 

[exquisitor]

In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus tells us that before he comes as the Just Judge a sign will be seen in the heavens- All light in the heavens will be extinguished which will cause a great darkness to fall over the earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, where the hands and feet of our Lord were nailed great lights will come forth and light up the earth for a period of time. All of this is to take place shortly before the last day.

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU
JESUS, MARY, I LOVE YOU SAVE SOULS

 

[Seamus_L]

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

 

[Megan7]

I have been discussing end-times with my two Baptist friends the past year. Perhaps more correctly they have been discussing and I listen. It’s scary listening to them, not because I believe their conspiracy theories or endless list of end-times signs but because they actually believe their research which AFAIK is wholly based on YouTube presentations.

What I am interested in is what does the Church say is the Signs of the end-times? I know the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem is one.

Apologies in advance to Forum Admins if this has been posted in wrong section or a disallowed topic.

Thanks for the thread Pax

 

[TimothyH]

It is always worth remembering that we pray in the Eucharistic prayer, that we look forward to the coming of Christ. For Christians, the end times are more a promise that evil in the end cannot triumph, because the victory has already been won! It is not a threat of a disaster in store but a promise of a glorious future!

The one who gives this testimony says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! (Revelation 22:20)

-Tim-

 

[asd72]

Hmm.

An interesting position. I think part of the problem though is that the End Times haven’t come. Jesus has not returned, even after two millennia. So what is to be made of this without dismissing Christianity completely?

It’s my understanding that the early Christians believed the End was imminent- Jesus himself said so, that his contemporary generation would see the coming of the Kingdom. So, how did that happen? That generation is long dead. The world still turns, and as you say, evil still exists. And Jesus is still nowhere to be seen. This, of course, lead to the idea of individual judgment after death. Otherwise you have to accept that grandma is not with Jesus but is dust in the ground waiting for resurrection.

A type of the end of the world happened in 70 AD which was within a generation - 40 years, with the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. There is evidence the Israelites saw the Temple as a microcosm of creation. There are parallels between the creation account and the building of Solomons Temple in the Old testament. So I don’t think the early Christians were mistaken.

The Olivet discourse makes more sense in this respect.

 

[SeekerDude]

The belief that your family members are just dust in the ground awaiting resurrection tends toward the Jewish belief in Sheol. It was a place where souls (really shades - shadows of the people they once were) would sink.

I guess based on that observation, where do you understand the souls of your loved ones to be?

This is consistent with the Sumerian thought on the afterlife.

Which it may be noted, even Biblically, as a precursor to Jewish thought, and by proxy, Christian thought. Consider that Abraham came from Ur, a Sumerian city.

 

[SeekerDude]

I understand all this.

I just find it interesting to compare these prophecies to the current world. For example, a worldwide economic collapse simply could not have happened centuries ago. However, now with the many major economic powers (including the U.S.) beyond the historic debt/GDP ratios at which point there is no possibility of recovery without major pain, and the fact the U.S. dollar is the de facto currency, it’s a very real possibility.

I hate to invoke the Sumerians again, but, we’ve been calling the End Times at least since we’ve been literate.

And I hate to step out of my temporary belief again, but the world will end in approximately a billion years when the Sun’s average temperature has increased enough that the Goldilock’s Zone has been shifted further than 1 AU.

On the other hand, we as a species may destroy ourselves tomorrow, and very well within the next two centuries (climate change. I lived through the end of the Cold War, I hope to God that climate change ends up being just as impotent as mutually assured destruction).

 

[SeekerDude]

In the diary of St. Faustina Jesus tells us that before he comes as the Just Judge a sign will be seen in the heavens- All light in the heavens will be extinguished which will cause a great darkness to fall over the earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, where the hands and feet of our Lord were nailed great lights will come forth and light up the earth for a period of time. All of this is to take place shortly before the last day.

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU
JESUS, MARY, I LOVE YOU SAVE SOULS

I gotta be honest, St. Faustina makes me uncomfortable, and she is a factor that was in the cons category for me returning. I am not convinced of her sanity, and I am not convinced in John Paul II being correct in pushing for her canonization. Take that as you will.

 

[SeekerDude]

A type of the end of the world happened in 70 AD which was within a generation - 40 years, with the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. There is evidence the Israelites saw the Temple as a microcosm of creation. There are parallels between the creation account and the building of Solomons Temple in the Old testament. So I don’t think the early Christians were mistaken.

The Olivet discourse makes more sense in this respect.

This is why I find interpretation of prophecy as futile. I mentioned it either here or in another thread, but prophetic literature tends to be highly metaphorical, and as such applicable to anything. What of the stars falling out of the sky? Why, we know Alpha Centauri isn’t going anywhere soon. So does that mean light pollution? I live in an urban setting. One side of my family lives in a rural setting. I can go outside right now and count 20 stars. Over there, I can’t count. Did they fall out of the sky? Then why is it not global? What does that mean? Does that mean the darkness metaphorically gets even darker? Or is the night sky blander everywhere? The moon turns blood red every so often depending on atmospheric conditions. The sun turns black as sackcloth every time there is an annular eclipse, and those eclipses are not global.

The only thing that is common is that light is overcome by darkness. But is that a literal thing that we can observe with actual celestial bodies, or is it a metaphor? And if it is just a metaphor, how dark is dark?

World’s always been a dark place. I perceive it as just as dark as it was when we dropped out of the trees and started walking on two feet. The type of darkness is different. The percentages are the same, but there are a whole lot more of us at once, and we can talk to each other all at once, and we can do darkness on a seemingly miraculous scale. Does that mean we are in the End Times? Or does that mean we’re a more advanced, more interconnected collective jerk?

 

[LEMAITRE]

I gotta be honest, St. Faustina makes me uncomfortable, and she is a factor that was in the cons category for me returning. I am not convinced of her sanity, and I am not convinced in John Paul II being correct in pushing for her canonization. Take that as you will.

Her spiritual advisor and Superior would have been on the lookout for mental illness in her. The same way demonic possession usually ends up being referred by a Priest to a psych professional and may be diagnosed as a mental illness. She would have been closely observed. Miracles attributed to her intercession below and the theologically sound messages she relayed point to her authenticity.

A miracle was attributed to Saint Faustina in March 1981, when Maureen Digan of Roslindale, Massachusetts, was cured of lymphedema, an incurable disease, after praying at Saint Faustina’s tomb. The certification of the miracle led to Saint Faustina’s beatification on April 18, 1993. A priest who had heart damage was cured on October 5, 1995, and this led to Saint Faustina’s canonization on April 30, 2000.

It’s not easy becoming a Saint, it usually takes decades after a thorough process and examination by secular and religious experts.

 

[LEMAITRE]

Thank you all for your informative posts. I don’t ponder the end times but I am interested in what the Church theological experts deems as signs.